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originally posted by: howtonhawky
originally posted by: soberbacchus
originally posted by: JBurns
a reply to: soberbacchus
Donald Trump is NOT the "TARGET" of the investigation.
I am shocked to hear you make this admission.
So you realize Trump isn't "going down" for any of these BS lies/spin, right?
That he'll finish out his 4 years (probably 8, if re-elected)?
You are only shocked because your brain is stuck in a rut.
Trump not being the target of the investigation
AND
Trump being innocent Collusion/Obstruction of Justice/Working for Russian Interests in trade for Campaign Assistance...
AKA Criminal Conspiracy to Defraud the United States of America and stuff like that?
ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.
Mueller is not targeting PEOPLE, he is targeting criminal activity associated with Russian Collusion or Interference in the 2016 campaign.
People only become "targets" once Prosecutors feel they have enough evidence to indict and they are looking to strengthen the case and uncover all criminal activity as much as possible before issuing a full indictment.
The end game for Trump will be a report, not indictment.
At worst he will be named as a "non-indicted co-conspirator" in one of the final rounds of indictments as Nixon was.
Rosenstein decides if the Report goes public.
Before it goes public, it must get redacted by DOJ and intelligence community.
That will trigger the WH and Trump to demand that the report doesn't get released without their own redactions and approval.
That will be a fight. Rosenstein might get fired. Session will then either step back in (un recuse) or Sessions will get fired.
Trump will do everything possible to squash the report altogether or prevent it's release until after mid-terms so he can head off any potential impeachment (aka prevent blue wave in Nov).
All of this goes down in august and early Sept.
Muellers deadline is Sept. 1st for conclusions before he risks interfering in elections.
It gives time for the politics, spin and defense before mid-terms.
The way you describe the situation says that trump has all authority to fire rosenstine mueller and the whole lot if he chooses
Trump has the last say in any investigation under the justice department.
Since they cleared him that means no crime by trump and zero reason or need to speak with mueller
originally posted by: howtonhawky
originally posted by: soberbacchus
originally posted by: JBurns
a reply to: soberbacchus
Donald Trump is NOT the "TARGET" of the investigation.
I am shocked to hear you make this admission.
So you realize Trump isn't "going down" for any of these BS lies/spin, right?
That he'll finish out his 4 years (probably 8, if re-elected)?
You are only shocked because your brain is stuck in a rut.
Trump not being the target of the investigation
AND
Trump being innocent Collusion/Obstruction of Justice/Working for Russian Interests in trade for Campaign Assistance...
AKA Criminal Conspiracy to Defraud the United States of America and stuff like that?
ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.
Mueller is not targeting PEOPLE, he is targeting criminal activity associated with Russian Collusion or Interference in the 2016 campaign.
People only become "targets" once Prosecutors feel they have enough evidence to indict and they are looking to strengthen the case and uncover all criminal activity as much as possible before issuing a full indictment.
The end game for Trump will be a report, not indictment.
At worst he will be named as a "non-indicted co-conspirator" in one of the final rounds of indictments as Nixon was.
Rosenstein decides if the Report goes public.
Before it goes public, it must get redacted by DOJ and intelligence community.
That will trigger the WH and Trump to demand that the report doesn't get released without their own redactions and approval.
That will be a fight. Rosenstein might get fired. Session will then either step back in (un recuse) or Sessions will get fired.
Trump will do everything possible to squash the report altogether or prevent it's release until after mid-terms so he can head off any potential impeachment (aka prevent blue wave in Nov).
All of this goes down in august and early Sept.
Muellers deadline is Sept. 1st for conclusions before he risks interfering in elections.
It gives time for the politics, spin and defense before mid-terms.
i like your thinking here
of coarse i disagree with some conclusions though
The way you describe the situation says that trump has all authority to fire rosenstine mueller and the whole lot if he chooses
Trump has the last say in any investigation under the justice department.
Since they cleared him that means no crime by trump and zero reason or need to speak with mueller
The only type of investigative appointment that trump would not have final say over would be a criminal one where mueller was appointed for a specific crime with actual evidence.
just a reminder collusion is not a crime paying someone to pee on a bed is not a crime
game over peeps
He admits to this kind of tactic yet they don't quite get that he is manipulating them.
originally posted by: JBurns
a reply to: soberbacchus
Sure, but your first "IF" is premised on BS. Has been examined multiple times by Congress and still no evidence that withstands even a cursory smell test.
It isn't premised on BS. McCain, Flake, Hillary (etc) employed a foreign agent (Steele) to contact more foreign agents (the Russians he got "dirt" from - unless he made it up) to influence a campaign.
How is this any different than what you're accusing Trump of?
originally posted by: UnBreakable
Gowdy is setting himself up for a run in 2020.
originally posted by: JBurns
a reply to: Sillyolme
Spy, by definition, is a derogatory term. A spy is someone who infiltrates, lies, steals, corrupts and generally engages in anti-social/criminal activity. The fact that some specific acts of spying are sanctioned by nation-states does not change the moral shortcomings of the act itself
Most spies are not "secret government agents" or concerned Citizens, but instead criminals/terrorists/foreign spies who are fabricating/entrapping (or lying/stealing/infiltrating/subverting/etc) in order to get a reduced sentence for a crime, to make money, feed a drug addiction, prevent embarrassing leaks, etc. Common people don't usually volunteer to become CI's.
Some of our "spies" (vs case officers and USGOV employees) even engaged in dealing drugs & arms around the world. They've rigged elections & meddled in foreign nations' domestic affairs for centuries. The selective outrage is the most shocking part to me
originally posted by: Gandalf77
originally posted by: howtonhawky
originally posted by: soberbacchus
originally posted by: JBurns
a reply to: soberbacchus
Donald Trump is NOT the "TARGET" of the investigation.
I am shocked to hear you make this admission.
So you realize Trump isn't "going down" for any of these BS lies/spin, right?
That he'll finish out his 4 years (probably 8, if re-elected)?
You are only shocked because your brain is stuck in a rut.
Trump not being the target of the investigation
AND
Trump being innocent Collusion/Obstruction of Justice/Working for Russian Interests in trade for Campaign Assistance...
AKA Criminal Conspiracy to Defraud the United States of America and stuff like that?
ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.
Mueller is not targeting PEOPLE, he is targeting criminal activity associated with Russian Collusion or Interference in the 2016 campaign.
People only become "targets" once Prosecutors feel they have enough evidence to indict and they are looking to strengthen the case and uncover all criminal activity as much as possible before issuing a full indictment.
The end game for Trump will be a report, not indictment.
At worst he will be named as a "non-indicted co-conspirator" in one of the final rounds of indictments as Nixon was.
Rosenstein decides if the Report goes public.
Before it goes public, it must get redacted by DOJ and intelligence community.
That will trigger the WH and Trump to demand that the report doesn't get released without their own redactions and approval.
That will be a fight. Rosenstein might get fired. Session will then either step back in (un recuse) or Sessions will get fired.
Trump will do everything possible to squash the report altogether or prevent it's release until after mid-terms so he can head off any potential impeachment (aka prevent blue wave in Nov).
All of this goes down in august and early Sept.
Muellers deadline is Sept. 1st for conclusions before he risks interfering in elections.
It gives time for the politics, spin and defense before mid-terms.
i like your thinking here
of coarse i disagree with some conclusions though
The way you describe the situation says that trump has all authority to fire rosenstine mueller and the whole lot if he chooses
Trump has the last say in any investigation under the justice department.
Since they cleared him that means no crime by trump and zero reason or need to speak with mueller
The only type of investigative appointment that trump would not have final say over would be a criminal one where mueller was appointed for a specific crime with actual evidence.
just a reminder collusion is not a crime paying someone to pee on a bed is not a crime
game over peeps
I respectfully disagree: The game is still very much afoot.
Several indictments and guilty pleas later, we don't know what Mueller's team has learned from the squealers; we don't know how many different threads they're running to ground; we don't know what he does or doesn't have from the intel, surveillance, etc.
It's a good bet more indictments are on the way.
And while Trump remains a 'subject' of the investigation, not a target, interviews continue. The situation is fluid and subject to change. Given that list of questions that came out, at the very LEAST he needs to sit for an interview to answer questions related to obstruction of justce. Incidentally, despite his recorded comments to the contrary, he's now claiming he didn't fire Comey because of Russia. Why? My guess is he's spooked about the obstruction angle.
originally posted by: howtonhawky
originally posted by: Gandalf77
originally posted by: howtonhawky
originally posted by: soberbacchus
originally posted by: JBurns
a reply to: soberbacchus
Donald Trump is NOT the "TARGET" of the investigation.
I am shocked to hear you make this admission.
So you realize Trump isn't "going down" for any of these BS lies/spin, right?
That he'll finish out his 4 years (probably 8, if re-elected)?
You are only shocked because your brain is stuck in a rut.
Trump not being the target of the investigation
AND
Trump being innocent Collusion/Obstruction of Justice/Working for Russian Interests in trade for Campaign Assistance...
AKA Criminal Conspiracy to Defraud the United States of America and stuff like that?
ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.
Mueller is not targeting PEOPLE, he is targeting criminal activity associated with Russian Collusion or Interference in the 2016 campaign.
People only become "targets" once Prosecutors feel they have enough evidence to indict and they are looking to strengthen the case and uncover all criminal activity as much as possible before issuing a full indictment.
The end game for Trump will be a report, not indictment.
At worst he will be named as a "non-indicted co-conspirator" in one of the final rounds of indictments as Nixon was.
Rosenstein decides if the Report goes public.
Before it goes public, it must get redacted by DOJ and intelligence community.
That will trigger the WH and Trump to demand that the report doesn't get released without their own redactions and approval.
That will be a fight. Rosenstein might get fired. Session will then either step back in (un recuse) or Sessions will get fired.
Trump will do everything possible to squash the report altogether or prevent it's release until after mid-terms so he can head off any potential impeachment (aka prevent blue wave in Nov).
All of this goes down in august and early Sept.
Muellers deadline is Sept. 1st for conclusions before he risks interfering in elections.
It gives time for the politics, spin and defense before mid-terms.
i like your thinking here
of coarse i disagree with some conclusions though
The way you describe the situation says that trump has all authority to fire rosenstine mueller and the whole lot if he chooses
Trump has the last say in any investigation under the justice department.
Since they cleared him that means no crime by trump and zero reason or need to speak with mueller
The only type of investigative appointment that trump would not have final say over would be a criminal one where mueller was appointed for a specific crime with actual evidence.
just a reminder collusion is not a crime paying someone to pee on a bed is not a crime
game over peeps
I respectfully disagree: The game is still very much afoot.
Several indictments and guilty pleas later, we don't know what Mueller's team has learned from the squealers; we don't know how many different threads they're running to ground; we don't know what he does or doesn't have from the intel, surveillance, etc.
It's a good bet more indictments are on the way.
And while Trump remains a 'subject' of the investigation, not a target, interviews continue. The situation is fluid and subject to change. Given that list of questions that came out, at the very LEAST he needs to sit for an interview to answer questions related to obstruction of justce. Incidentally, despite his recorded comments to the contrary, he's now claiming he didn't fire Comey because of Russia. Why? My guess is he's spooked about the obstruction angle.
no they cleared trump twice of any criminal activity.
that clears him
and proves the investigation is cointel and that muellers appointment is unconstitutional givin that this scope outlined was a different one than cointel.
In order for mueller to head a cointel investigation he would need to be approved by congress and signed into law by the POTUS
Now if muellers appointment is a criminal investigation against trump as outlined by his scope then he is now finished and the whole thing was unconstitutional because there was no valid crime proven in order to validate the investigation.
All the rest is just filler
originally posted by: Gandalf77
a reply to: OccamsRazor04
I disagree. Those questions were very detailed and directly related to a number of issues central to this investigation.
They weren't "designed" as a trap; that's the right-wing narrative.
He's a self-proclaimed "stable genius." All he has to do is tell the truth. Is that asking so much?
originally posted by: introvert
originally posted by: Gandalf77
a reply to: OccamsRazor04
I disagree. Those questions were very detailed and directly related to a number of issues central to this investigation.
They weren't "designed" as a trap; that's the right-wing narrative.
He's a self-proclaimed "stable genius." All he has to do is tell the truth. Is that asking so much?
By looking at the questions, it appears they were "designed" to get information on Trump's intent in regards to certain issues.
My guess is that Trump's actions with Comey, for example, and the things he had said following Comey's firing, threw up many red flags and the questions (some) were created to discern whether Trump intended to obstruct justice or not.
originally posted by: JBurns
a reply to: Sillyolme
An informant is not an employee of the federal government (or law enforcement in the case of non-IC work) but they do act at their behest. I'm not trying to muddy the waters here, just wanted to point out how full of it Clapper is.
When he sat there intentionally muddying the water by using words like "tradecraft" "spycraft" "spy" etc he knew what he was doing. He was exploiting the common lack of knowledge surrounding this issues. No "employee" of the federal government is a "spy" they are case officers and handlers, who certainly recruit spies, but that isn't what Clapper/et al are accused of doing. They are accused of using a confidential informant (asset - AKA "spy") to collect intelligence on a campaign.
The fact they vehemently denied this (and initially poked a lot of fun at Trump/supporters) should show you how serious this really is. It is unprecedented. And if they were so concerned with Russia, why the failed cloak & dagger BS? Why not approach the campaign directly? Why did Obama deny it? Why didn't he take action?
Barrack Hussein Obama was in office when "the attack" was happening, so why did he take no action? Why did he tell everyone Russia had backed off? Even poked fun at Trump (yet again) for even possibly believing our elections could be tampered with. Speaking of which, how about all the liberals who still claim to this data that election meddling doesn't happen? (ie: illegals voting) How can you reconcile that with the allegations RE: Russia?
originally posted by: introvert
originally posted by: Gandalf77
a reply to: OccamsRazor04
I disagree. Those questions were very detailed and directly related to a number of issues central to this investigation.
They weren't "designed" as a trap; that's the right-wing narrative.
He's a self-proclaimed "stable genius." All he has to do is tell the truth. Is that asking so much?
By looking at the questions, it appears they were "designed" to get information on Trump's intent in regards to certain issues.
My guess is that Trump's actions with Comey, for example, and the things he had said following Comey's firing, threw up many red flags and the questions (some) were created to discern whether Trump intended to obstruct justice or not.
originally posted by: burgerbuddy
originally posted by: introvert
originally posted by: Gandalf77
a reply to: OccamsRazor04
I disagree. Those questions were very detailed and directly related to a number of issues central to this investigation.
They weren't "designed" as a trap; that's the right-wing narrative.
He's a self-proclaimed "stable genius." All he has to do is tell the truth. Is that asking so much?
By looking at the questions, it appears they were "designed" to get information on Trump's intent in regards to certain issues.
My guess is that Trump's actions with Comey, for example, and the things he had said following Comey's firing, threw up many red flags and the questions (some) were created to discern whether Trump intended to obstruct justice or not.
Problem is you can’t question his constitutional rights/powers vis a vie intent.
originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Gandalf77
Actually based on the questions released he will NOT sit down as the questions are designed not to get to the truth but to try to get Trump to trip up so they can accuse him of lying to the FBI, even if he never intended to.