MGTOW - Men Going Their Own Way, Thanks Feminism

a reply to: bulwarkz

Sorry but not sorry, you make me chucklle and I'm crashing out, have a good night/day/eve fella.
Genuine

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

Honestly, your constant participation and immense condescension on this subject is no more admirable than the worst examples of the social groups we are talking about.

I mean, most define the groups they are negative towards by the worst examples they can find. I might not "like" that, and wish that we would be more intelligent, but I get it. However, its a whole 'nother thing to be more obsessed with a given social group than those who actually consider themselves members.

You can't be too surprised that folks react negatively to antagonistic, insulting behavior, right?

Like I said before, I think these movements/philosophies/whatever are indicative of legitimate problems and grievances. We have the unique opportunity to actually explore and address them with modern communication technology. However, that will require all of us to grow up, at least a tiny little bit, and listen and learn.

That is absolutely not limited to this topic either. For whatever reason, we tend to regress to schoolyard dynamics (bullying, high horses, personal infallibility, etc) when something offends our sensibilities on the internet.

We seem completely incapable of constructive participation, or at least just moving on from topics that don't concern us. And that is a real pity..

originally posted by: Enderdog

originally posted by: KKLOCO
a reply to: SummerRain

Agreed. There is a HUGE difference between a MGTOW and an incel. Hell, this is the first time I’ve even heard of an incel. As previously stated by someone, the beginning part of incel stands for involuntary. Being a MGTOW is absolutely voluntary. I guess a better way to understand it is MGTOW = alpha — incel = beta.

MGTOW is saying — I’m strong enough without a woman in my life.

Incel is saying — I can’t get a woman.

Excellent point. MGTOW are primarily volcels.

No, MGTOW’s choose to not give up their entire livelihood to a woman. Sex is okay, depending on who you are. There is no rule book. That would be very contradictive to what their plight is. We got screwed by the rules (laws). Therefore, we say F##k the rules. No one will have that power over me again.

Maybe, it would help both men and women to hold fast to the following precept...never empower another above yourself. First and foremost, you as an individual, as a man or as a woman, are responsible for your own well-being, and to be the provider of your own needs. Only from such a 'solid' individual foundation can a man or a woman hope to be considered as an attractive option by the opposite sex. Remember, you are responsible for the choices you make.

There are so many variables for why men and women fail at relationships. I am a male who has failed in three attempts to find a long-term partner. The first was because we were too young, the second was due to discovered incompatibility, and the third was due to work life, and how we simply ended up drifting apart due to how we each committed to career. I acknowledge without reservation the part I played in all three failed relationships, but in each of the relationships, each woman played an equal part in the failure, also.

After the third attempt, I gave up trying. I am now approaching 60 years old, but still considered by my peers as a worthwhile attractive catch. However, I have now been single for just over 20 years, and I absolutely refuse to compromise on my personal space, knowing full well that I could never again (nor want to) live with another human being, especially so with today's social climate of polarised ideology and opinion. I cater to and for myself, and I feel so self-empowered because of it. The truth of the matter is...women need men for many variables more than men need women, and that is an inequality that will never be bridged.

Nature forces us together for the continuity of our species, all the other reasons are simply variables we impose on ourselves. For men, the trick is to not be over-powered by the impositions, but at the same time (for their sanity), men should not impose their needs upon others. If a man allows himself to be led by his genitals, he should expect shallow and non-enduring relationships. Then again, our DNA is not programmed for long-term monogamous relationships. Our species would not have survived if it were. Only after we civilised into patriarchal societies did monogamy become something of a rule rather than an exception, but this placed women more in the role of 'chattel', and only in the last 100 years or so have women been able to slough of patriarchal expectations and become much more sovereign over their own minds and bodies...and rightly so, but the cost has been the breakdown of patriarchal society (in developed countries), diminishing the role of men and raising the role of women above and beyond their actual capabilities.

In terms of basic nature, we are not physical equals, nor do we share the same instinctual drives, we are but complimentary to each other, bringing that what the other lacks, and in that way, we are symbiotic. It is in our minds and intelligences where we share equal capacity. Give a female the same level of education as a male and she will express an equal intellect, but from a different perspective, and it will be just as valid.

Today, developed societies are teetering on the remnants of patriarchy, and it all seems quite unstable, with nothing developing to take its place and bring about the required stability our societies need. Individualism is so rampant and chaotic today without having any perfunctory 'gender' role to guide it and give it purpose. In our minds we are at odds with our own bodies, because in our minds we are so sexually diverse and it has been given free reign to express itself, and none of this (in general terms) leads to long-lasting, fulfilling monogamous relationships.

Just as there is no longer any long-term job security, relationships are equally as fraught and fragile.

a reply to: Serdgiam

I'm just replying to anyone who replies to me so whining about my constant participation seems silly in a discussion forum don't you think.

a reply to: elysiumfire

You've said some interesting things here!

It seems like emerging social groups have a momentum which causes them to keep rolling even if the original goals are achieved.

Personally, I was raised in a home where equality was the name of the game and with a helluva strong woman for a mother, so I never really learned to see it otherwise.

I think it all has the chance to equalize, but only as long as the groups with momentum do not do irreparable damage. Women's rights are treading that ground now, with groups like MGTOW being of concern a bit further down the line.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

I wasn't whining about anything, much less your participation.

It was the form that participation takes that I was pointing out along with a general pseudo-rant.

I've said my piece though and find it easy enough to just ignore folks and scroll on past their posts.

You can consider my words, or just keep on keepin' on. That part isn't up to me. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

a reply to: Serdgiam

I'm only here for amusement and interesting discussion to be honest.
The MGTOW member who said "I'll just f**k women and throw em back where I found them" is the one you should be criticising. Absolutely disgraceful thing to say about women, and I'll call stuff like that out every time.
He is a poor advert for a whiny boys club which dishes out labels and insults to men like me who don't think as they do.
"Simp" "Soyboy" "White knight" "Cuckold", it's lame and pathetic...but amusing, so I'll keep replying.

EDIT
I forgot "BBM" which I was called previously by the same MGTOW member who stated "I'll just f**k women and throw em back where I found them".
I had to search a bit because the member refused to tell me what it stands for, turns out it's "Bastard Baby Maker". These guys are unhinged at best, silly little labels from silly little boys.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

Yup, that is a pretty horrible thing to say. My point is that you've said some things in the same vein, so if you are disturbed by such things.. you are personally participating in their creation. What you do with that information is up to you, but you don't have much of a high ground when you "dish out labels and insults to men like them who don't think as you do."

We must always be cautious not to define something by the things that bother us the most, as well. This small, simple facet of social interaction is, in my opinion, one of the biggest factors in modern societal division. We even tend to overlook and eschew opportunities for productive interaction in order to meet and equal the things that bother us the most.

For example, in any thread, look at how many responses an offensive one liner receives in comparison to well thought out posts of any length. Then, we start to define the opposition in accordance to our focus, eventually ignoring any constructive avenues of discussion completely.

We have far, far too many that do this and not nearly enough that actually attempt constructive discourse.

We can do better, but it does take actual effort and disrupting habits. The emergence of competing social groups is ages old, yet we still don't seem to have much of a grasp on the subject. Perhaps even less so as our focus and attention span shortens.

originally posted by: Serdgiam
a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

Yup, that is a pretty horrible thing to say. My point is that you've said some things in the same vein, so if you are disturbed by such things.. you are personally participating in their creation. What you do with that information is up to you, but you don't have much of a high ground when you "dish out labels and insults to men like them who don't think as you do."

We must always be cautious not to define something by the things that bother us the most, as well. This small, simple facet of social interaction is, in my opinion, one of the biggest factors in modern societal division. We even tend to overlook and eschew opportunities for productive interaction in order to meet and equal the things that bother us the most.

For example, in any thread, look at how many responses an offensive one liner receives in comparison to well thought out posts of any length. Then, we start to define the opposition in accordance to our focus, eventually ignoring any constructive avenues of discussion completely.

We have far, far too many that do this and not nearly enough that actually attempt constructive discourse.

We can do better, but it does take actual effort and disrupting habits. The emergence of competing social groups is ages old, yet we still don't seem to have much of a grasp on the subject. Perhaps even less so as our focus and attention span shortens.

^^^^


Jung and the shadow

Carl Jung is famous for formulating the concept of the shadow, the portion of everyone’s personality which, through the course of one’s life, is relegated to the darkness of the unconscious.

we are witnessing in action the projection of a shadow

a reply to: Serdgiam

See my edit above, I'd forgotten "Bastard Baby Maker", honestly, these MGTOW boys seem unhinged, and bordering on dangerous to women.
As I said though I find it amusing so water off a ducks back to me, but it disturbs me a bit that these guys are out there in the world, probably talking to their knives as they sharpen them.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

i wondered that myself. extrapolating from another acronym i thought maybe he was calling you a big beautiful man, but that seemed a little complimentary for the situation.

a reply to: fiverx313

Lol yes, I first thought Big Breasted Man maybe, but found a ranting MGTOW forum which explained it. Honestly they all seem like potential mass shooters if you read some of the threads. Not sure if it is allowed to link other forums here so I won't, but just Google "MGTOW BBM" and it should come top of the results.

a reply to: toysforadults

I think its a really interesting tendency we have.

Through cultures, there are stories that point out this very thing. Everything from "The Two Wolves" to Jung.

I think these stories are Important. Ever moreso with the advent and progression of technology. As well as intentional manipulation of it by certain groups.

Historically, groups like MGTOW, Feminists, Equal Rights in general, etc. are received in exactly the same way. But, they all arose from legitimate grievances, which were eventually ameliorated without the social group ever stopping the fight. I feel this process will be greatly expedited with technology like the internet.

The behavior we usually see is that the worst examples of the emergent group become the focus for opposition, which ends up isolating individuals simply by association. This is easily manipulated through tactics like controlled opposition, etc. This ends up creating a much worse situation in so many ways, even if it eventually moves forward over time.

Ideally though, we could actually address these things VERY quickly and get moving on advancing our species' maturity in much the same way as our technology progresses. For far too long we have conflated the advancement of our tools with the advancement of us as sentient life. Its a problem that eventually comes to a head and I wouldn't be surprised if it has before, long ago prior to what we know as our history.

a reply to: elysiumfire

Today, developed societies are teetering on the remnants of patriarchy, and it all seems quite unstable, with nothing developing to take its place and bring about the required stability our societies need. Individualism is so rampant and chaotic today without having any perfunctory 'gender' role to guide it and give it purpose. In our minds we are at odds with our own bodies, because in our minds we are so sexually diverse and it has been given free reign to express itself, and none of this (in general terms) leads to long-lasting, fulfilling monogamous relationships. Just as there is no longer any long-term job security, relationships are equally as fraught and fragile.

Does this relate to the change in polarity we are experiencing in other forms IE changing weather patterns?

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

i tend to follow We Hunted the Mammoth for all my most alarming MGTOW/incel/MRA news

a reply to: Serdgiam

But, they all arose from legitimate grievances, which were eventually ameliorated without the social group ever stopping the fight

interesting point, is this similar to how the ummm, left or social justice group continue to find victims and perpetrator's where there are none and if there isn't one they will find one anyway?

The behavior we usually see is that the worst examples of the emergent group become the focus for opposition

sort of like pointing out the poorest qualities of the outliers while ignoring the valid concerns of the average?

For far too long we have conflated the advancement of our tools with the advancement of us as sentient life.

I agree, I've been saying it for years now our technology has out paced out civilization and cultures ability to adapt, our focus on money and lack of culture is bringing us to a point where we can no longer ignore it

originally posted by: fiverx313
a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

i tend to follow We Hunted the Mammoth for all my most alarming MGTOW/incel/MRA news

Mate, I'm not even searching that if it's anything worse than stuff I've read.
It's like rabid dogs, and I never even knew MGTOW was a thing until seeing this thread, they seem like psychos, bitter and angry about women.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

understandable. i don't like to go read it often, but i like to keep abreast of what's trending in the communities.

i consider it a personal safety measure, as a woman.

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: Serdgiam
interesting point, is this similar to how the ummm, left or social justice group continue to find victims and perpetrator's where there are none and if there isn't one they will find one anyway?

In my opinion, absolutely! On this, we are talking about behavior which has become embedded over many, many generations. That creates a social momentum which must be consciously recognized and addressed.

For someone outside of the group, the general experience of unfairness in life is explained by life being unfair. For those within, it is explained by racism, bigotry, etc. regardless of if it actually is present. And.. there will always, always, always be fuel for that particular fire. That's a real serious problem, but like most habits, its exceedingly difficult to break even with effort.

sort of like pointing out the poorest qualities of the outliers while ignoring the valid concerns of the average?

Pretty much.. In some cases, I do believe its intentional, but in the vast majority, its simply habitual. That said, I think with modern tech, this is exacerbated to an extreme degree.

I agree, I've been saying it for years now our technology has out paced out civilization and cultures ability to adapt, our focus on money and lack of culture is bringing us to a point where we can no longer ignore it

I have spoken about it for quite some time too. I strongly feel it is going to be one of the most serious issues we have ever faced as a people, but I feel that too few will recognize that in a meaningful time frame.

It will be obvious and undeniable at some point, and will still be fixable, but we could avoid some serious growing pains by beginning to tackle it as soon as possible. I'm genuinely worried about it, to be honest.

Too few actually examine how they interact with others to see they aren't much different than those they decry. Instead of actually learning and growing, the generational habits simply embed more deeply.

In my opinion, MGTOW is a direct response to the momentum of feminism (mainly). I think this is a relatively natural process that has endlessly repeated in different contexts throughout history, but its one that we should really try to learn from.