Carbon dating backs Bible on Edom

Originally posted by edsinger
Quickly - UR was part of Sumeria and Chaldea, at least influence wise.....you are grasping at straws.......


Worship whatever you wish............


Find me ONE single thing stated in the Bible that has been proven 100% wrong...........not speculation , but scientifically wrong.

Ed you can not push your "religious believe on others" yes if you want a intelligent and insightful review of the bible contents and it's place in history is plenty of people that will be happy to help.

But what you doing is called "pushing agenda" in other worlds you are using the religious conspiracy thread to push your religious believe and to created controversy.

You can not push ignorance to people that will get back to you to denied the ignorance.

We have another nice thread for spiritual and religious people, perhaps you will be more successful with your views in the other thread and plenty of members will agree with you.

The thread is interesting, don't get me wrong, but not what you are trying to push.

[edit on 19-2-2005 by marg6043]

Originally posted by edsinger
Quickly - UR was part of Sumeria and Chaldea, at least influence wise.....you are grasping at straws.......

Find me ONE single thing stated in the Bible that has been proven 100% wrong...........not speculation , but scientifically wrong.

Not only is that not an answer, a nonsensical answer at that, it also is a non-answer to only one part of my questions put to you. But I knew you could not counter it, you will never be able to.

I want you to tell me how Moses could have written that Abraham came from a Chaldean province when it was not yet such. Then I want you to explain the Beth-el issue. You have said it yourself unbeknownst to you, the Abraham story is pure speculation, no scientific proof is needed to show that the words contradict themselves.

And as to your 100%, the Beth-el issue is only but one of dozens I have disclosed on this site, and of hundreds I have identified. And just so you understand that even one such issue renders the rest of the book's credibilty questionable especially in view of the fact it is the divine word of God. With so many irregularities and contradictions a reasonable and logical person can no longer find excuses to still believe what it says, the whole thing has to be chucked as proof of the book's God.

I await your explanation on Beth-el that is something more than just a vacuous statement.

Originally posted by edsinger
Find me ONE single thing stated in the Bible that has been proven 100% wrong...........not speculation , but scientifically wrong.

I am asking this same question AND asking anyone to prove it wrong on this thread

www.abovetopsecret.com...

So far neither side has offered anything

Find me ONE single thing stated in the Bible that has been proven 100% right...........not speculation , but scientifically right.

How about the Genesis, how about the flood can anybody claim that as the truth can ed prove that? Can anybody?

Can you prove that it was a flood that covered the entire earth and a man name Noah built a boat to fit every single animal in earth did that included dinosaurs? after all did the bible said that earth was made in seven days?

But is something that the bible does not talks about and that is the primitive man that does not falls in the bible god creation theory and the giant animals that walk the earth, after all how can that be when in the bible "god created the earth in seven days" with men, women and the animals also.

Yes the bible is a very nice mythological book mix with history and the word of how men understood creation and came to terms with a God.

I agree with your post Marg, except for the last sentence and even then would only change it slightly.

Yes the bible is a very nice mythological book mix with history and the word of how men understood creation and came to terms with a God.

Yes the bible is a very nice mythological story book mixed with a little more recent history and the word of how men tried to understand the way the world was, they could not at that time so created a God.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Not only is that not an answer, a nonsensical answer at that, it also is a non-answer to only one part of my questions put to you. But I knew you could not counter it, you will never be able to.

I want you to tell me how Moses could have written that Abraham came from a Chaldean province when it was not yet such. Then I want you to explain the Beth-el issue. You have said it yourself unbeknownst to you, the Abraham story is pure speculation, no scientific proof is needed to show that the words contradict themselves.

In less than 2 minutes I found your answer, you choose to believe what you want but the answers are there...



The Chaldees were a tribe (that is believed to have migrated from Arabia) that lived on the shores of the Persian Gulf, and become a part of the Babylonian Empire, around the time of Hezekiah.

The Biblical ancestor of the Hebrew people, Abraham, was born at "Ur of the Chaldees," since the Chaldean people (Chaldees) ruled Babylonia during the Babylonian captivity (when the Hebrews wrote the Torah). Ur was one of the oldest and most famous of the Babylonian cities. Its site is now called Mugheir on the western bank of the Euphrates, in Southern Babylonia. About a century before the birth of Abraham it was ruled by a powerful dynasty of kings. Their conquests extended to Elam on the one side, and to the Lebanon on the other. They were followed by a dynasty of princes whose capital was Babylon, and who seem to have been of South Arabian origin. The founder of the dynasty was Sumu-abi ("Shem is my father"). But soon afterwards Babylonia fell under Elamite dominion. The kings of Babylon were compelled to acknowledge the supremacy of Elam, and a rival kingdom to that of Babylon, and governed by Elamites, sprang up at Larsa, not far from Ur, but on the opposite bank of the river. In the time of Abraham the king of Larsa was Eri-Aku, the son of an Elamite prince, and Eri-Aku, as has long been recognized, is the Biblical "Arioch king of Ellasar" (Genesis 14:1). The contemporaneous king of Babylon in the north, in the country termed Shinar in Scripture, was Khammurabi. (See Amraphel) Josephus claims that the Chaldeans were founded by the biblical character Arpachshad son of Shem, grandson of Noah. "Arphaxad named the Arphaxadites, who are now called Chaldeans." AotJ I:6. By this record, Abraham would be Chaldean.

Roman and later authors used the name Chaldeans in particular for astrologers and mathematicians from Babylonia.

LINK










[edit on 19-2-2005 by edsinger]

Ed, I would like to read your reply but the formatting makes it a difficult read, can you get rid of the italics?

Over emphasis creates a blur of words. A little computing psycology advice for you

Originally posted by Kriz_4
Find me ONE single thing stated in the Bible that has been proven 100% right...........not speculation , but scientifically right.

Here is a whole bunch of them




The book of Leviticus (written prior to 1400 BC) describes the value of blood.


Leviticus 17:11
‘For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’
The blood carries water and nourishment to every cell, maintains the body’s temperature, and removes the waste material of the body’s cells. The blood also carries oxygen from the lungs throughout the body. In 1616, William Harvey discovered that blood circulation is the key factor in physical life—confirming what the Bible revealed 3,000 years earlier.[1]


Science and the Bible

It would be fairly easy to figure out that "the life of the flesh is in the blood", from observing someone bleed to death.

Can you provide 100% proof, or even evidence for that matter, that the religious theories in the bible are true?

Can you prove that Jesus was the son of "God"?

Mary had to tell Joseph something...but just look what she started.

" Carbon dating backs Bible on Edom" And this means...... what!? We know the bible is a somewhat of a history book, to a degree....just not what Christians, or I should say, not in the way most Christians see/us/believe it to be.

Originally posted by CiderGood_HeadacheBad
Mary had to tell Joseph something...but just look what she started.

If you had read it you would know that exact question was raised,

Mat 1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
Mat 1:19 Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.
Mat 1:20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
Mat 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."
Mat 1:22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:
Mat 1:23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."
Mat 1:24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife.
Mat 1:25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

It's a little naive to believe that a virgin woman gave birth, simply because a book written by imperfect mortal men tells you so, don't you think?

If your wife-to-be got pregnant (assuming you had not had sex with her yet), and she told you it was "God's" child, would you believe her?

Originally posted by edsinger
In less than 2 minutes I found your answer, you choose to believe what you want but the answers are there...

You just shot your own foot by only taking 2 minutes. Let us start with:

The Chaldees were a tribe (that is believed to have migrated from Arabia) that lived on the shores of the Persian Gulf, and become a part of the Babylonian Empire, around the time of Hezekiah.

Pick a Hezekiah, any of them, and you find that not one of them came to life until hundreds of years after Moses, who as you may be aware is credited with writing the account of good old Abe.

Now let me give you a quick geographic lesson on UR. It is between Babylon and the Persian Gulf, you know the country as Iraq. Now for your history lesson: The Chaldean empire came into being when a Chaldean king Nabopolasser, forcefully seized the throne of Babylon and founded the Chaldean empire. This was in the 7th century BCE.

Now for your biblical lesson: Abe? well, he lived c4100BCE. What of Moses you say? why surely he would have known about the Chaldeans of the 7th century? Sorry, he lived 6-800 years before that.

So once more singer...How could Moses write about Ur being of the Chaldees when your own source shows you they came about centuries later?

since the Chaldean people (Chaldees) ruled Babylonia during the Babylonian captivity (when the Hebrews wrote the Torah)

And there you go confessions from your on fingertips, Moses did not write the Pentateuch. My you could have saved yourself the trouble and read where I wrote that months ago.

The rest of your post is fluff. Now have you figured out the Beth-el issue yet?

Originally posted by Aether

Why doesn't the bible write of civilizations created before the time of the story's respective characters?

Perhaps because it is a story of "Man"?

The reason the bible does not mention many other civilizations is due to the fact that the old testament is the story of the Jewish people and their understanding of their God.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Now let me give you a quick geographic lesson on UR. It is between Babylon and the Persian Gulf, you know the country as Iraq. Now for your history lesson: The Chaldean empire came into being when a Chaldean king Nabopolasser, forcefully seized the throne of Babylon and founded the Chaldean empire. This was in the 7th century BCE.

And yes I know where Mesopotamia is, the way you see it Moses would have been referring to the Iraqis.


Look he passed the story down, it doesn't mean that he was there. So who preceded the Chaldean's? The Sumerians? Ur was around for a long time you know...lets see


The Biblical ancestor of the Hebrew people, Abraham, was born at "Ur of the Chaldea," since the Chaldean people (Chaldea) ruled Babylonia during the Babylonian captivity (when the Hebrews wrote the Torah). Ur was one of the oldest and most famous of the Babylonian cities. Its site is now called Mugheir on the western bank of the Euphrates, in Southern Babylonia. About a century before the birth of Abraham it was ruled by a powerful dynasty of kings.

Originally posted by edsingerLook he passed the story down, it doesn't mean that he was there. So who preceded the Chaldean's? The Sumerians? Ur was around for a long time you know...lets see

Still trying hard to cover up this blatant error singer by not answering the question?


It's really simple. You are at a loss to defend Moses saying Abe was from UR of the Chaldees when that was an event still to happen hundreds of years in the future, I don't care what historical information you cite about its various name changes and history because those citations do not contain UR coming under the Chaldean empire no later than Moses' time.

And you are also at a loss to explain why Abe went south from Beth-el into Egypt then south from Egypt back into Beth-el.

Do you know why you cannot defend those statements singer? Because they are absolutely indefensible. The first points to Moses having written the Pentateuch as being a lie, that it could not have been written before 800BCE, and the latter is just a blatant lie.

Signing off on this one now, as it is obvious you will go to any lengths to defend the lies and perpetuate the deceit.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetweenStill trying hard to cover up this blatant error singer by not answering the question?

I did answer it just not the answer you like....

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetweenIt's really simple. You are at a loss to defend Moses saying Abe was from UR of the Chaldees when that was an event still to happen hundreds of years in the future, I don't care what historical information you cite about its various name changes and history because those citations do not contain UR coming under the Chaldean empire no later than Moses' time.

Again read what I wrote........and I will also post this again so you might read it this time,

The Biblical ancestor of the Hebrew people, Abraham, was born at "Ur of the Chaldees," since the Chaldean people (Chaldees) ruled Babylonia during the Babylonian captivity (when the Hebrews wrote the Torah). Ur was one of the oldest and most famous of the Babylonian cities

Because Moses wrote it not Abraham. Now let me ask you something, did you actually read what I wrote? It says that it was put to pen under the Babalonian exile, well after Moses. If you were to write a story today you would not call it Mesopatamia but you would call it Iraq so your readers would know just where you are talking about, it is not that hard a concept to understand now is it? If you want to get technical, it refers first to UR which was of Sumer first, long before Abaraham was even born, as a matter of fact Abrams dad was a high Priest in the culture at UR.


UR (uhr) Place name meaning, "fire oven." An ancient city in lower Mesopotamia that is mentioned in the Bible as Abraham's birthplace. Ur, Kish, and Uruk were three important population centers in Sumerian and Babylonian civilization. Abraham's family home is alluded to in Genesis 12:1 and Acts 7:2. The site associated with Ur is located in present-day Iraq, in the lower eastern portion of the Fertile Crescent. It is identified with tell el-Muqayyar some 350 km (220 mi) southeast of Baghdad. The site is an oval shape and had harbor facilities on the Euphrates River, until its course shifted twelve miles east from the city's western limit. With the river's shift, the city lost both its population and prominence. Other sites have been proposed for the biblical Ur, such as Urartu (Turkey) or Urfa (northwest of Haran). Occupation of tell el-Muqayyar began about 4000 B.C. and was important in Sumerian, Babylonian, and neo-Babylonian cultures. The third dynasty of Ur was its most prosperous and highly developed period. Important remains discovered were a ziggurat (a three stage, stepped pyramid) and royal tombs. This Sumerian site is most probably to be identified as Abraham's city of origin. Yet, as with most identifications, such can be questioned.


And yet the definition is just as I said it was, by GEOGRAPHIC location.

CHALDEA (khal dee' uh) refers either to a geographical locality (Chaldea) or to the people who lived there (Chaldeans). Chaldea was situated in central and southeastern Mesopotamia, i.e., the land between the lower stretches of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. Today Chaldea lies in the country of Iraq, very close to its border with Iran, and touching upon the head of the Persian Gulf.

The Chaldeans In Old Testament times different peoples occupied southeastern Mesopotamia at various times. One such group was the Chaldeans, whose name derives from the ancient term Kaldai, which refers to several Aramean tribes who moved into lower Mesopotamia between 1000 and 900 B.C. Their new homeland was a flat, alluvial plain of few natural resources, many marshes, spring flooding, and very hot summers.

Relation to Babylonia At first the Chaldeans lived in tribal settlements, rejecting the urban society of the Babylonians to the northwest--so-called after the leading city-state of the region, Babylon, to which the Old Testament refers over 300 times. Babylon was once the capital city of the great King Hammurabi (ca. 1763-1750 B.C.), remembered for the empire he created, and for the famous law code which bears his name.
As time passed, the Chaldeans gradually acquired domination in Babylonia. In the process they also took on the title "Babylonians," or more exactly, "Neo-Babylonians." As a result, the terms Chaldea(ns) and (Neo-)Babylonia(ns) may be used interchangeably (Ezek. 1:3, RSV, NIV; 12:13, NIV). See Babylon, History and Religion of.
In the eighth century B.C., the Chaldeans emerged as the champions of resistance against Assyria, a dangerous, aggressive imperial force in upper Mesopotamia. At this time the Chaldeans begin to appear in the Old Testament, first, as possible allies with Judah against Assyria, but later, as a direct threat to Judah and Jerusalem.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetweenAnd you are also at a loss to explain why Abe went south from Beth-el into Egypt then south from Egypt back into Beth-el.

Well lets see exactly what Gods Word says here shall we?



Gen 11:29 Abram and Nahor both married. The name of Abram's wife was Sarai, and the name of Nahor's wife was Milcah; she was the daughter of Haran, the father of both Milcah and Iscah.
Gen 11:30 Now Sarai was barren; she had no children.
Gen 11:31 Terah took his son Abram, his grandson Lot son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, the wife of his son Abram, and together they set out from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to Canaan. But when they came to Haran, they settled there.
Gen 11:32 Terah lived 205 years, and he died in Haran.

So by your reasoning Haran did not exist yet either?

HARAN (Hay' ran) Personal and place name meaning, "mountaineer" or "caravan route." Three men and an important city of northern Mesopotamia located on the Balik ah River.





Gen 12:1 The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you.
Gen 12:2 "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.
Gen 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."
Gen 12:4 So Abram left, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he set out from Haran.
Gen 12:5 He took his wife Sarai, his nephew Lot, all the possessions they had accumulated and the people they had acquired in Haran, and they set out for the land of Canaan, and they arrived there.
Gen 12:6 Abram traveled through the land as far as the site of the great tree of Moreh at Shechem. At that time the Canaanites were in the land.
Gen 12:7 The LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your offspring I will give this land." So he built an altar there to the LORD, who had appeared to him.
Gen 12:8 From there he went on toward the hills east of Bethel and pitched his tent, with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east. There he built an altar to the LORD and called on the name of the LORD.
Gen 12:9 Then Abram set out and continued toward the Negev.
Gen 12:10 Now there was a famine in the land, and Abram went down to Egypt to live there for a while because the famine was severe.
Gen 12:11 As he was about to enter Egypt, he said to his wife Sarai, "I know what a beautiful woman you are.
Gen 12:12 When the Egyptians see you, they will say, 'This is his wife.' Then they will kill me but will let you live.
Gen 12:13 Say you are my sister, so that I will be treated well for your sake and my life will be spared because of you."
Gen 12:14 When Abram came to Egypt, the Egyptians saw that she was a very beautiful woman.
Gen 12:15 And when Pharaoh's officials saw her, they praised her to Pharaoh, and she was taken into his palace.
Gen 12:16 He treated Abram well for her sake, and Abram acquired sheep and cattle, male and female donkeys, menservants and maidservants, and camels.
Gen 12:17 But the LORD inflicted serious diseases on Pharaoh and his household because of Abram's wife Sarai.
Gen 12:18 So Pharaoh summoned Abram. "What have you done to me?" he said. "Why didn't you tell me she was your wife?
Gen 12:19 Why did you say, 'She is my sister,' so that I took her to be my wife? Now then, here is your wife. Take her and go!"
Gen 12:20 Then Pharaoh gave orders about Abram to his men, and they sent him on his way, with his wife and everything he had.
Gen 13:1 So Abram went up from Egypt to the Negev, with his wife and everything he had, and Lot went with him.
Gen 13:2 Abram had become very wealthy in livestock and in silver and gold.
Gen 13:3 From the Negev he went from place to place until he came to Bethel, to the place between Bethel and Ai where his tent had been earlier
Gen 13:4 and where he had first built an altar. There Abram called on the name of the LORD.
Gen 13:5 Now Lot, who was moving about with Abram, also had flocks and herds and tents.
Gen 13:6 But the land could not support them while they stayed together, for their possessions were so great that they were not able to stay together.
Gen 13:7 And quarreling arose between Abram's herdsmen and the herdsmen of Lot. The Canaanites and Perizzites were also living in the land at that time.


So we ask just what is Bethel?

BETHEL (Bethel; house of God) 1. Bethel was important in the Old Testament for both geographic and religious reasons. Because of its abundant springs, the area was fertile and attractive to settlements as early as 3200 B.C., and first supported a city around the time of Abraham. Today the village of Beitin rests on much of the ruins of Bethel. Located at the intersection of the main north-south road through the hill country and the main road from Jericho to the coastal plain, Bethel saw much domestic and international travel. Bethel became a prominent border town between tribes and the two kingdoms later. Religiously, Bethel served as a sanctuary during the times of the patriarchs, judges, and the divided kingdom, hence was second only to Jerusalem as a religious center.
Entering Canaan, Abraham built an altar at Bethel, calling "upon the name of the Lord' (Gen. 12:8), and returned here after his time in Egypt (Gen. 13:3).

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetweenDo you know why you cannot defend those statements singer? Because they are absolutely indefensible. The first points to Moses having written the Pentateuch as being a lie, that it could not have been written before 800BCE, and the latter is just a blatant lie.

And yet the Bible says this, now read carefully ok?

Gen 13:1 So Abram went up from Egypt to the Negev, with his wife and everything he had, and Lot went with him.
Gen 13:2 Abram had become very wealthy in livestock and in silver and gold.
Gen 13:3 From the Negev he went from place to place until he came to Bethel, to the place between Bethel and Ai where his tent had been earlier

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetweenSigning off on this one now, as it is obvious you will go to any lengths to defend the lies and perpetuate the deceit.

Just cause I don't answer in your time frame doesn't mean there is no answer, I see nothing in Gods Word about going South into Bethel, do you?





[edit on 20-2-2005 by edsinger]

[edit on 20-2-2005 by edsinger]

Ed singer Moses did not wrote anything, The first five books of the Torah or Pentateuch, has never been claim as been written by Moses, they were pass for over two thousand years, as the books of Moses but in the last century religious scholars came to the conclusion that the inconsistencies in the idea or Moses been the writer was to obvious.

One inconsistency,
Deuteronomy 34:6 “ And he buried him (moses) in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but not man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day”

This passage not only describes the burial of Moses but also says that the location of his grave is unknown unto this day, indicating that the passage was written well after the death of Moses and couldn’t have been written by him.