Next generation of black aircraft: after the Aurora.

Originally posted by ghost


You right About radar travling at the speed of light! I didn't explain my point well. Let's say you want to listen in a phone converstion between Bin Laden and one of his operatives in Iraq. The radio waves that carry the Cell phone conversation travle at the speed of light, but the conversation itself doesn't. If you want to hear what they are discussing, you need to hang around for a while and listen!




Tim
ATS Director of Counter-Ignorance

High speed aircraft are rarely used to listen to cell phones and other radion transmissions. satallites can take care of radio transmissions and if they can't then slow flying planes like the P-3 Orion or its replacement based on the 737 can do this by loitering in friendly/international airspace ( remember the chinese incident with the P-3 in 01 ). as several have stated before, high altitude- high speed aircraft give you the felxibility to make unannounced hard to track visits where there will be little or no time to place things under the cover.

the military/cia want to have the pop up capability to be anywhere in the world within two hours for air recon, and i'm sure they have this capability currently

Excuse me if somebody has already made this statement, but we are speculating a great deal about what the Aurora can do. Heck, we arent even 100% certain its real. I mean, its probabaly real, but not one of us has ever actually touched one.

I just find it hard to envision what comes after the Aurora not having any idea what the Aurora can do.

But if I were to give in to the speculation, the "next" plane after the Aurora will have:

- Ultra low observable: Radar, Thermal, Visual
- Mach 8-12 (I dont believe the Aurora goes faster than 5-7)
- Unmanned

I say unmanned because this wont be a combat aircraft. The flight plans and objectives can easily be AI controlled. By removing the pilot the effects of gravity, pressure, temperature, etc arent a factor anymore. You also gain all that space back from the cockpit. What type of human support would a plane of this nature require? Just remove the pilot and everything is settled.



[edit on 22-2-2005 by skippytjc]

Originally posted by RichardPrice

Originally posted by beyondSciFi
I wouldnt be surprised at all. The military as stuff over 75 years more advanced then the technology available to the public. I'll even go as far as say that they have probably mastered interplanetary if not interstellar travel...

I hope thats sarcasm, because Ive heard this 'claim' many times, and i totally disbelieve it each time I hear it. Military stuff is often no further advanced that stuff being dveloped in the private sector, and if it is ahead, its ahead by months or weeks, not years.

No, its true. The gov't even made public statements about them being at least 50 years more advanced then anything publicly known at this time. There have even been documentaries on the history and science channels stating the exact same thing.

[edit on 22-2-2005 by beyondSciFi]

Originally posted by RichardPrice

Originally posted by ghost

You right About radar travling at the speed of light! I didn't explain my point well. Let's say you want to listen in a phone converstion between Bin Laden and one of his operatives in Iraq. The radio waves that carry the Cell phone conversation travle at the speed of light, but the conversation itself doesn't. If you want to hear what they are discussing, you need to hang around for a while and listen!

Interesting point, but recon aircraft are rarely used for that specific purpose (the NSA and the UK GCHQ have huge listening posts around the globe which catch these conversations, and they are also intercepted by satellites).

Signals Intelligence is covered by passive capture - you dont actually have to have anything in the field, signals bounce all over the place thanks to the ionosphere, and can be picked up from quite a distance away.

I think the Military might disagree that aircraft are rarly used for that! Are you familiar with the RC-135 Rivit Joint? the RC-135 is an example of one aircraft that was built for the SIGINT mission. Check it out:
RC-135 Rivit Joint

Also, I've herad that the U-2's also have ELINT capibilities, but I don't know that much about the U-2 flying ELINT. The US Navy's EP-3E Orion also Flies the ELINT mission:EP-3E
Orion

That just a "Quick List" of a few that come to mind for me. I know there are more. Bottom line is this: There is no Single main way ELINT is gathered. Aircraft, fixed & moble ground stations, ships and sattelites are all used. Just because you don't hear about it too often, doesn't mean it isn't going on!

Tim
ATS Director of Counter-Ignorance

Originally posted by beyondSciFi


No, its true. The gov't even made public statements about them being at least 50 years more advanced then anything publicly known at this time. There have even been documentaries on the history and science channels stating the exact same thing.

[edit on 22-2-2005 by beyondSciFi]

Ever heard of the word 'propaganda'?

If I had to guess about what the next gen of black aircraft would be I would figure them to fall in the following categories:

- Global Surveillance, Reconnaissance, and Targeting System (Unmanned Air Vehicle)
- Global Area Strike System (Uninhabited Combat Air Vehicle)
- Manned Single Stage Space Plane

No doubt stealth and speed are major factors but so is loiter time and since high speed and loiter time don't mix well I would look for multiple platforms on the 1st two categories.

Also, I would look for a blending of these categories on one platform to further adhere to the netcentric kill chain doctrine.




[edit on 23-2-2005 by intelgurl]

Intelgurl is right, there is almost no point in having a manned recon aircraft, everything can planed into a a high speed, high altitude UAV. Also if anything occurs during the mission, changes can be made from the home base. In the future probably almost all information gathering might be done by UAVs and satellites. The only manned craft that be in the future are probably cargo/transport, maybe refueling craft, Fighter aircraft and maybe bombers. Anything I leave out?

What about that odd creture called the hypersoar or something? Actually enters the edge of space?

Don't know much more about it myself. Anyone?

Originally posted by Teh_Gerbil
What about that odd creture called the hypersoar or something? Actually enters the edge of space?

Don't know much more about it myself. Anyone?

That is now called Project Falcon.
Air-Attack.Com has an excellent article on Falcon - definitely a good read, here's the link.

Intelgurl to the rescue!

Anyways, noone can prove the existence of the Aurora, and I highly doubt it does exist, it would be one of those things "It sounded good on paper and in the minds, but when we got to building it, something better came out."

And yea, the most I've heard of technology being ahead, was 10 years max, I highly doubt our technology is farther advanced.

UAV's controlled from home bases would probably be the future of recon.

O and, information on SR-71 will be difficult to trust, since alot of the information is fudged, alot of the true potential is still classified.

And I understand that the Aurora can do from Mach 4.5 to 12 using a Hyperscramjet engine, or PDE. Atleast that's what I heard.

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by intelgurl

Originally posted by Teh_Gerbil
What about that odd creture called the hypersoar or something? Actually enters the edge of space?

Don't know much more about it myself. Anyone?

That is now called Project Falcon.
Air-Attack.Com has an excellent article on Falcon - definitely a good read, here's the link.

These kind of projects are usually the public counter parts of similar black projects that have been perfected many years ago... They only go public like this when the gov't feels thats its safe to do so since they are already completed the next two or threes generations after the initial experiments. That or these experiments are just "old news" and can be declassified.

Beyond, you must change your font color for your side profile, if it is not readable, you can get into trouble.

Anyways, the "Falcon" project was never civilian, there are no advanced civilian projects that are funded by the government, it just doesn't work.

Black projects are funded by the government, any technologies researched and developed, and are this advanced, will always be funded by the government, and will never be civilian, no single person can fund for such a project.

The "Falcon" project I believe at one time was black, but the government didn't feel it was safe to release this information, they just felt that you can't hide such a project, and it was public knowledge because the technology benefited the public most. The technology was being researched by NASA, so that's more reason pointing towards it being public knowledge.

Just like the X-30, that was being researched by NASA, so it was public knowledge, however it went black and all traces of it just disappeared, except for privately owned websites and stored articles.

So it's not a matter of national security, as it is, being researched by the type of branch of service. This technology has high military applications, so why would the government tell other people? There are many things about the Falcon that is classified, like the exact performance, noone knows, it's secret for a reason.

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
Intelgurl to the rescue!

Anyways, noone can prove the existence of the Aurora, and I highly doubt it does exist, it would be one of those things "It sounded good on paper and in the minds, but when we got to building it, something better came out."
Shattered OUT...

If you all remember, Aurora was listed in a budget document years ago. This Suggests it's a Code Name for something. Aurora is a program, not an aircraft! Remember the origional CIA A-12 Blackbird? The plane was called the blackbird, but the Program was called Oxcart by the CIA. The truth is this: We really don't know what the Aurora Program created! We think it's a spy plane, but we don't know for sure. It was Black Project Chasers like us who made Aurora into a hypersonic spyplane. For all we know, the reports of Secret Hypersonic Aircraft in the desert Southwest might never have had any connection to the Aurora Project!

Side Note: If Aurora would turn out to be nothing more than a Subsonic stealth Replacement for the RC-135 Rivit Joint (which could happen) all of us (ME Included) are going to be walking homw with our tail between out legs!

Tim
ATS Director of Counter-Ignorance

Wasn't it the head or at the very least a higher up at LockHeed/Martin who said just before he died that Area 51 has stuff 50 yrs ahead of everyone else.That might sound far fetched but look at it this way.All of the scientist and engineers out there if they make a break through in some feild of aeronautics(propulsion,stealth etc) can't publish there work.So no one knows about it and they can keep expanding on the idea getting even more ahead of everyone else.Especially if they are the only ones with the new ideas.Its not like the real world patten the idea and everyone knows and then has it.So maybe they could be 10 yrs ahead. Plus with a almost blank check to fund them its plausable. Hmm anyone hear of the swithcblade?Is it in the open now?Just curious. Maybe the next step in black aircraft will be ones with feild propulsion.I heard they are supposedly testing them at area 51.Any truth to it?Also no matter how much you speculate the next generation aircrfaft will be unmanned,superfast,stealthy,capable of dogfighting,a comunication center kind of a one stop shopping sort of thing. Finally if some black project does have a scramjet/pulse detonation engine etc why would they share it with nasa?Nasa can't even keep kids from hacking there sights I mean if you have that type of tech you don't want it getting out especially to forigen countries so just sit back and say nothing and watch nasa fail.All the while keeping your secret.

I think The Aurora wont be used for Recon that much not with satlites being able to take a picture whenever where ever, but i think they will use the Aurora for First strike Think about this a US stealth sub may get close to a country but when it launches cruise missle then you somewhat give away the position of the Sub and cruise missile can be shot down,

Stealth has great abilities But lets say to be able to shut down a countries ability to wage war lets say that they have there intel centers in the middle of there country Cruise missile wouldnt make it and a stealth would eventually be seen Visually visually and shot down But now Fly a Aurora
at 100,000 Feet travling mach 5 or 7 with LGB or GPS guided bombs over a country and hit intel centers and enemy runways and communications before you start the main battle.

in order to shoot down an Aurora you have to
1st Know its Coming
2nd know exactly where its going to be
3rd calculate where to fire a missile and use a proximity missile cause you would never get a direct hit on that plane

So basicly to shoot down this plane you would need pretty close to the same setup as the Bush Admin. is setting up to Shoot down Incoming Nukes

100,000ft+Mach5+GPS Guided Bomb=an enemy fighting Blind

If the Aurora exists and is/was a spy plane, I would say its propulsion is PDE. Because I dont think they would use a ramjet again, and scramjets would need help getting going until they hit mach 4 to 5.

The modern day U-2 is the Global Hawk, its unmanned and can loiter over a day. Future recon I think will be done by the combo of unmanned planes, airships, satellites, the combination of them all can conquer any task.

I dont think much if any "Black" money is being spent on a fast recon craft.
I think that the Black Budget has turned its eyes upward.....Spacecraft.

originally posted by: Murcielago
If the Aurora exists and is/was a spy plane, I would say its propulsion is PDE. Because I dont think they would use a ramjet again, and scramjets would need help getting going until they hit mach 4 to 5.

The modern day U-2 is the Global Hawk, its unmanned and can loiter over a day. Future recon I think will be done by the combo of unmanned planes, airships, satellites, the combination of them all can conquer any task.

I dont think much if any "Black" money is being spent on a fast recon craft.
I think that the Black Budget has turned its eyes upward.....Spacecraft.

Although we know that the supposed Aurora spyplane never existed because scramjet technology was in its infancy in the 1990s, and that the "donuts-on-a-rope" contrails were in no way produced by a pulse detonation wave engine, the CIA in the 1980s initiated the Quartz program for a stealthy long-range reconnaissance unmanned air vehicle designed to penetrate Soviet airspace in a time of war and identify rail- and road-mobile ICBMs in use by the Soviet Strategic Rocket Forces. The US Air Force and NRO jointly backed the Quartz program, which would have been the true SR-71 successor had it been built, but rising costs led to Quartz (aka AARS) being canceled in the early 1990s. The Tier III project for a high-altitude, long-range stealth UAV initiated after Quartz's cancellation would have been about the size of the B-2, being smaller than Quartz, but it was eventually split into the Tier II+ and Tier III- programs that produced the RQ-4 Global Hawk and RQ-3 Dark Star respectively, the latter which was stealthy but not designed for long-range unlike the RQ-4. The super-secret RQ-180 developed by Northrop Grumman occupies the niche left vacant by the retirement of the SR-71 that the Quartz or Tier III would have filled, not only having a wingspan bigger than the RQ-4 but also being designed to penetrate heavily defended airspace at high altitudes.

Links:
www.secretprojects.co.uk...
aviationtrivia.blogspot.com...