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The Pope on Homosexuality

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posted on May, 24 2018 @ 05:07 AM
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originally posted by: testingtesting
a reply to: Teikiatsu

Nope not anymore society has evolved for the better.
You like others are using religion as an excuse for bigotry.
I know gay Christians and most Christians have moved on from being gay is a sin etc like they have with wearing two types of cloth.


Has society really evolved for the better? This is the problem with progressive thought. Things change but is it evolution toward some end? And is it for the better? I believe society is pretty much the same as it always has been.

We go down different paths but it's not really new or better. We didn't invent homosexuality. It has always been there. Maybe these changes are cyclical or like a pendulum. It's not some brave new lifestyle into a progressive, utopian future. You want to be gay? Fine. That's on you. If everyone went that way he human race would go extinct.

Some people have lives tat go beyond themselves. Maybe they have a family that expects them to have children and grandchildren. There are thoughts and dreams in this world that go beyond narrow self interest.




posted on May, 24 2018 @ 05:15 AM
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originally posted by: 2012newstart
When St John Paul II said that the masturbation is not always a mortal sin, the local priests jumped up that he didn't mean that,... Later on, some priests said it would be OK to masturbate and wouldn't need to be confessed any longer.

I wonder, why don't all those priests and bishops admit Publicly, that they too masturbate... and in many cases they have sexual relations with Adults. What is the motivation for a young man to choose Catholic priesthood and deprive himself of sexual relation for all his life?

Apparently, what has been kept hidden inside the monasteries in the past, now becomes public. 1985 years Church history in which the homosexual minded people were given a privilege place of consecrated service, only kept secret from the public.

And let say it with all honesty: What was the relation between Jesus and John the beloved disciple? How could he lean on Jesus' breast (just imagine the pose, they didn't have chairs they sat on the floor). Why so many books later were banned and burned? Because they said inconvenient truths. Not just the Gnostic ones that somehow survived. Mary Magdalene, and so many other questions pop up. When will we be told the truth? After our death may be? Enough of waiting!

Pope Francis makes a shadow doctrine with his interviews... I don't think we have the physical time to wait all those cardinals to admit what was known for centuries. The doctrine is not a dogma and did change in history. Peter was married for example. It is a time for a new doctrine of the Church, if that Church has a future. We all know what happened on Nicaea council under the dictate of the Roman emperor, and why we have this doctrine and not another one. Let there be a new revised Nicaea council Now!


So what kind of change do you envision? Are we to corrupt the teachings of the church into 1000 perversions? (genders?)



posted on May, 24 2018 @ 06:55 AM
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a reply to: toms54

It has gotten for the better because gay folk can be open about it, sure it is not perfect and people still discriminate against them but it is better.
Around ten percent of people have always been gay and guess what they can still have kids.
I think the go forth and multiply argument silly because of our obvious over population.
Being gay is no choice btw did you choose to be straight?.



posted on May, 24 2018 @ 07:36 AM
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originally posted by: toms54
a reply to: Gemwolf

Yes, all celibate people are living an unnatural life, including priests. I don't know that it is sinful but I believe it is not natural. Perhaps it makes a kind of sense in that the priest is holy and must be separate from the profane but I believe priests should be permitted to marry. Perhaps then we would see less sexual irregularities in the church. Many denominations permit their priests to marry.

One should be careful to venture down the path of "natural" or "unnatural". You're going to have a hard time defining "natural" to begin with. Since man crawled out from under a rock and "invented" fire, very little can be considered natural. At what point in our history do we decide "this behavior is natural"?
Is driving in cars, watching TV, wearing clothes, shoes and jewelry, flying, using toilets and not bushes, eating refined sugar or genetically modified food, using guns or electrocuting criminals natural?

You can look all around nature and you'll find cases of organisms with both genders (simultaneous hermaphrodites like snails), organisms born with one gender and changing to a different gender at some point (sequential hermaphrodites like clown fish) and organisms without gender (typically microorganisms). All considered natural. So can we go ahead and point at cases of homosexuality and bisexuality occurring in nature. (More than 1,500 species, since you asked.) Homosexuality has been observed throughout human history in all societies across all races and societies. I don't see how something that has been occurring naturally for thousands of years can be seen as unnatural?

Cultural acceptance is all that is different throughout the ages. Some societies were (and still are) perfectly fine with homosexuality. Indigenous peoples of the Americas honored "Two-Spirited" (homosexual) members of society. Societies of South America like the Aztecs, Mayans, Quechuas, Moches, Zapotecs, and the Tupinambá were perfectly fine with homosexuality until the Spanish conquerors arrived and suddenly it was "wrong". Same in Eastern societies such as the Chinese and Japanese societies (I wonder how many people are aware of the samurai tradition). Europe offers a plethora of examples. All across ancient societies - as far as the Egyptians - homosexuality was documented. Some times it was accepted. Some times not. The point is - it occurred and some societies accepted this (i.e. that it was natural) and some not.

At this point you would like to indicate that you mean natural in the sense of reproduction and the Darwinian survival of the species.
You are quite right. It is quite the puzzle and scientists have been pondering this for quite some time. How can a trait like male homosexuality, which has a (proven) genetic component, persist over evolutionary time if the individuals that carry the genes associated with that trait are not reproducing? Just because we don't know the answer, does not mean that there isn't an answer or that it's unnatural.

There are several theories which you are welcome to read up on. In short the theories include:
- Giving genetically stronger members of the species a greater opportunity to reproduce. While it doesn't benefit the single organism (the homosexual person), it does benefit the species as a whole. With reference to Andrea Camperio-Ciani's studies: Maternal female relatives of gay men have more children than maternal female relatives of straight men. The implication is that there is an unknown mechanism in the X chromosome of men's genetic code which helps women in the family have more babies, but can lead to homosexuality in men.
- Homosexual members of a species have the role of carers. Take the worker bee for example: She is a female bee that lacks the full reproductive capacity of the colony's queen bee, i.e. she cannot reproduce to ensure the survival of the species. But she takes care of the hive by providing food, warmth, protection, etc. and by doing so helps the survival of the species. Again: "The greater good".
This role of carer was played by homosexual individuals in indigenous American tribes and also Oceanic tribes. They didn't reproduce but played important rolls as "doctors", protectors and teachers.
There's a very interesting "TED Talk video" on the matter if you're interested.

Just to name a few out a myriad of possible answers.

The bottom line is still: You cannot say homosexuality (or not reproducing) is unnatural when it plainly is natural.



I don't care if you are gay or if you support homosexuality. Ii don't want to judge anyone. I was just trying to figure why the Bible teaches that. Maybe you have a better answer.

That is a noble trait. I fear that you may not find an answer if you approached the topic with a preconceived notion of what the answer is...

I don't have the answer. It would be arrogant of me to say so. I can but offer my understanding and opinion of the matter, and hope that it may help you find your own understanding or acceptance.

There is a problem with "trying to figure why the Bible teaches that" (homosexuality is a sin). It's the same problem as the current Pope saying homosexuality is fine.
There is (basically) one Bible, yet there are countless religions, churches, groups, believers, etc. based on the same book. All of them have different believes, practices and approaches - all based on the same Book. One can reason that no single Book in the history of mankind has caused this much division. The first division of the Christian church happened in 431 AD and it just went downhill from there.
And every single denomination believe they are right, and everyone else is wrong. Surely everyone can't be right because they definitely don't all believe the same thing.

First you have to decide just how accurate is the Bible before you can even consider deciding what to believe.
Translated again and again from old scrolls. Some Bibles contain some books, and others not. You have to keep in mind that the (Christian) Bible is a collection of 66 separate books, all of which were written by more than 40 authors across a time span of more than 2,000 years. Between in 325 AD and 381 AD church leaders got together to decide which of the existing texts that discussed God/religion/Jesus etc. should be included in a single book for Christianity... In other words "The Word of God" as people refer to it was not a single book given to Christians as set of rules to live by. There are countless "biblical apocrypha" that were not included in the modern Bible. You can even compare Bibles such as the Gutenberg Bible, the Luther Bible and the King James Version and find astounding differences. We would like to believe that the Bible as we know it was "divinely inspired". But we know for a fact that personal opinions and agendas played (and still do to this day) a role in decision making, so perhaps some texts were excluded that should have been included and vice versa. Maybe, if someone was in bed with a cold 600 years ago, Leviticus and Romans wouldn't have been in the modern Bible, and we wouldn't even be having this conversation...

[Continued...]
edit on 24/5/2018 by Gemwolf because: Clarity



posted on May, 24 2018 @ 07:36 AM
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(continued)

Now, with all that in mind, to get back to the question: What is the answer to the question "Why the Bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin"?
We can present scholarly, philosophical, theological or historical arguments. There simply is no way of really knowing who is right and who is wrong. I think it’s extremely unfair to judge, mistreat and shunt 5-10% of society based on 6 sentences in the Bible.

I’ll put it in perspective with the words of Lynn Lavner: “The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals. It's just that they need more supervision.”

My opinion: The endless squabbles about minute details in verses in the Bible is completely missing the whole point of the Bible. The entire message can be summed up as thus: Love God. Love each other. Tell everyone the good news.
So, is homosexuality a sin? Homosexuality is about love. So no. Does God love homosexual people. Absolutely. Does homosexuality interfere with YOUR relationship or believe in God? I don’t see why it should. So what is the problem? Well, there is none, except for people’s habit of judging other people and things they don’t understand.

edit on 24/5/2018 by Gemwolf because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2018 @ 12:10 PM
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The bible, specifically the New Testament is a rule book for Christians, Yeah?
The NT states pre marital sex is wrong, only men and women have been allowed to get married
Sex out of marriage is wrong
According to the rule book for christians, those who believe in God

Now if you don't believe in the NT or don't want to follow it, if you don't believe in the Abrahamic God then don't follow our rules.

They Are not for you, choose as you wish
It's a christiansnchoice, it's not for you if you don't want it
I am assuming the pope was addressing a fellow Catholic, it's a catholic thing, not for non catholics

What are you arguing about
If you don't believe in God or sin, then don't
Others do, we are not all playing by the same rules, we shouldn't have to either

It's that freewill thing again

My opinion: The endless squabbles about minute details in verses in the Bible is completely missing the whole point of the Bible. The entire message is aimed at those who choose to believe the bible, if you don't, then don't follow or believe the bible...That Love thing was very good and valid and shouldn't be missed by christians who want to follow and serve Christ, loving everyone is a responsibility and the pope was showing that, that's nice
edit on 24-5-2018 by Raggedyman because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-5-2018 by Raggedyman because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2018 @ 01:18 PM
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originally posted by: toms54

originally posted by: 2012newstart
When St John Paul II said that the masturbation is not always a mortal sin, the local priests jumped up that he didn't mean that,... Later on, some priests said it would be OK to masturbate and wouldn't need to be confessed any longer.

I wonder, why don't all those priests and bishops admit Publicly, that they too masturbate... and in many cases they have sexual relations with Adults. What is the motivation for a young man to choose Catholic priesthood and deprive himself of sexual relation for all his life?

Apparently, what has been kept hidden inside the monasteries in the past, now becomes public. 1985 years Church history in which the homosexual minded people were given a privilege place of consecrated service, only kept secret from the public.

And let say it with all honesty: What was the relation between Jesus and John the beloved disciple? How could he lean on Jesus' breast (just imagine the pose, they didn't have chairs they sat on the floor). Why so many books later were banned and burned? Because they said inconvenient truths. Not just the Gnostic ones that somehow survived. Mary Magdalene, and so many other questions pop up. When will we be told the truth? After our death may be? Enough of waiting!

Pope Francis makes a shadow doctrine with his interviews... I don't think we have the physical time to wait all those cardinals to admit what was known for centuries. The doctrine is not a dogma and did change in history. Peter was married for example. It is a time for a new doctrine of the Church, if that Church has a future. We all know what happened on Nicaea council under the dictate of the Roman emperor, and why we have this doctrine and not another one. Let there be a new revised Nicaea council Now!


So what kind of change do you envision? Are we to corrupt the teachings of the church into 1000 perversions? (genders?)


I think I said it, first they need to declassify ALL the books of what exactly Jesus did and said. 4 out of how many gospels are in our Bibles? Today, no one will burn us for reading that. Certainly not Jesus Christ who said what he said. And why it is hidden? Sorry I will not be more specific at this time. First we need the books. All of them. Then a new Nicaea council to determine based on all words of Jesus, what is right and what is wrong. Not the pope alone in one interview not recorded, again. A Church council, with the power of the Holy Spirit. Not the council dictated by Constantine to determine how we should live our lives.
edit on 24-5-2018 by 2012newstart because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2018 @ 01:54 PM
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a reply to: Gemwolf

I only read a third of that book you wrote. A full page is not really required for every response to my simple thoughts.

Marriage is acceptable over the entire world and has been since history began. Even animals do it. To act like you are not able to understand this is disingenuous.

You seem to not be speaking in good faith. If you're just going to troll me, I won't answer you. When I see the joke laugh and move on.



posted on May, 24 2018 @ 02:03 PM
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originally posted by: visitedbythem
It doesn't matter what the pope says. He is just a man, and men cannot forgive sins regardless of what he says.

Scripture is very clear about Same sex sin. They spell it out very clearly.


just so you know, scripture was written by man as well. I agree most, but not all homosexuality is acquired and not god given.



posted on May, 24 2018 @ 02:08 PM
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a reply to: Gemwolf

I just have to say that sexual attraction to children and animals is also natural, yet we don't accept that as just being "natural" do we? Same with inclinations towards violence, theft, etc.



posted on May, 24 2018 @ 02:09 PM
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originally posted by: 2012newstart

originally posted by: toms54

originally posted by: 2012newstart
When St John Paul II said that the masturbation is not always a mortal sin, the local priests jumped up that he didn't mean that,... Later on, some priests said it would be OK to masturbate and wouldn't need to be confessed any longer.

I wonder, why don't all those priests and bishops admit Publicly, that they too masturbate... and in many cases they have sexual relations with Adults. What is the motivation for a young man to choose Catholic priesthood and deprive himself of sexual relation for all his life?

Apparently, what has been kept hidden inside the monasteries in the past, now becomes public. 1985 years Church history in which the homosexual minded people were given a privilege place of consecrated service, only kept secret from the public.

And let say it with all honesty: What was the relation between Jesus and John the beloved disciple? How could he lean on Jesus' breast (just imagine the pose, they didn't have chairs they sat on the floor). Why so many books later were banned and burned? Because they said inconvenient truths. Not just the Gnostic ones that somehow survived. Mary Magdalene, and so many other questions pop up. When will we be told the truth? After our death may be? Enough of waiting!

Pope Francis makes a shadow doctrine with his interviews... I don't think we have the physical time to wait all those cardinals to admit what was known for centuries. The doctrine is not a dogma and did change in history. Peter was married for example. It is a time for a new doctrine of the Church, if that Church has a future. We all know what happened on Nicaea council under the dictate of the Roman emperor, and why we have this doctrine and not another one. Let there be a new revised Nicaea council Now!


So what kind of change do you envision? Are we to corrupt the teachings of the church into 1000 perversions? (genders?)


I think I said it, first they need to declassify ALL the books of what exactly Jesus did and said. 4 out of how many gospels are in our Bibles? Today, no one will burn us for reading that. Certainly not Jesus Christ who said what he said. And why it is hidden? Sorry I will not be more specific at this time. First we need the books. All of them. Then a new Nicaea council to determine based on all words of Jesus, what is right and what is wrong. Not the pope alone in one interview not recorded, again. A Church council, with the power of the Holy Spirit. Not the council dictated by Constantine to determine how we should live our lives.


Don't be concerned about the Catholic Church including these extra books. I've read most of them and the vast majority are not compatible with the Catholic doctrine. Maybe you believe they are all true. You can read these works in most any library. A lot of them are gnostic writings that teach a very different view of God, Christ, and reality in general. Nothing is stopping you from starting your own church.



posted on May, 24 2018 @ 02:29 PM
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originally posted by: toms54
a reply to: Gemwolf

I only read a third of that book you wrote. A full page is not really required for every response to my simple thoughts.

Marriage is acceptable over the entire world and has been since history began. Even animals do it. To act like you are not able to understand this is disingenuous.

You seem to not be speaking in good faith. If you're just going to troll me, I won't answer you. When I see the joke laugh and move on.


I wrote "a book" because it's a complex matter, not something that can possibly be addressed in a single paragraph much less a single sentence. And I hardly scratched the surface. Yet, you seem to have completely lost the plot as indicated by "Marriage is acceptable over the entire world and has been since history began. Even animals do it."

I offer you a well-thought through, informed response to your post, and you call it trolling?
I don't know whether I should laugh because of the absurdity or cry because this is what has become of discussions on ATS.

I think Vincent put it best: "When in conversation, do you listen, or do you just wait to talk?"
Best of luck with your endeavors.



posted on May, 24 2018 @ 02:59 PM
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a reply to: Gemwolf

I tend to agree with you on this. The Old Testament God would have been a dick about homosexuality and the Christian one wouldn't have a problem.

Then again, the OT God didn't seem to think homosexuality worth adding to the Commandments. 10 were enough to cover the main bases and he (He) didn't have Moses go Spinal Tap by adding 11.



posted on May, 24 2018 @ 03:02 PM
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a reply to: Kandinsky


. The Old Testament God would have been a dick about homosexuality and the Christian one wouldn't have a problem.


Not entirely true...

Jesus didn't mention anything about it....

paul did... Though its possible he might have been gay




posted on May, 24 2018 @ 03:37 PM
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a reply to: Akragon

What's true though? We don't know for sure Biblical Jesus existed. Can't know what he said if he did exist.



posted on May, 24 2018 @ 03:50 PM
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originally posted by: Kandinsky
10 were enough to cover the main bases and he (He) didn't have Moses go Spinal Tap by adding 11.


There were more, Brian Williams helped edit them down.



posted on May, 24 2018 @ 04:09 PM
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originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: Akragon

What's true though? We don't know for sure Biblical Jesus existed. Can't know what he said if he did exist.


Well im not in that particular camp... I think the evidence is pretty clear that Jesus existed

Now im not saying the miraculous things he did happened, but there was evidently a person named Yeshua that people followed, and died for what he believed.

Paul gives all the evidence we need to know Jesus was an historical person

He personally met peter and james

Can we trust what is written about him... that is hard to say, but a good portion of what is written speaks to the spirit.... IF you believe in such things




posted on May, 24 2018 @ 05:03 PM
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a reply to: Gemwolf

I should like to apologize to you for my harsh comments. I reread everything including your entire post carefully. I was left with the impression that if I saw someone else post the reply that I posted, I would have felt that it was uncalled for.



posted on May, 24 2018 @ 07:57 PM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus


That is the point of contention. God is the creator of all, so therefore he made gay people. Yes or no?

No. Why do you blame God for what mom and pop did? Homosexuals were not created by God. All people since Adam and Eve were procreated by their parents. God did a perfect job on Adam and Eve. They then screwed it all up by themselves just like all the moms and pops since then have done.



posted on May, 25 2018 @ 04:40 AM
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Pope Warns About ‘Gay’ Seminarians www.lastampa.it... nter-the-seminary-Rl1b1wdJOWXcOD9Nn2tZmO/pagina.html “If there is any doubt about homosexuality, better not let them enter the seminary”

Let say it honestly, most if not all of the clergy have chosen to become celibate priests exactly because they are homosexual. regardless whether they had actual sex relation or not.

You think he blessed the gays by saying God loves them? Here is what he says now.

A jesuit trained for decades who speaks double meaning and in fact plays both sides.

He did not do anything substantial except for talking 5 years. And I do not mean just for the sex issues that are discussed all the time. Where is the purge of corruption for example? What changed on local level since the time of Benedict?

He is old enough. The sooner he leaves the better. Don't expect him to make any breakthrough. he just buys more time for the Roman church establishment that is deeply compromised. The common billion catholics are NOT the Roman hierarchy!

But who will come after him? He is the last from Malachi's list. Well, may be the Roman church exhausted all options. Unless a miracle happens. As of now, it doesn't.
edit on 25-5-2018 by 2012newstart because: (no reason given)



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