Revenge of the Nerds and School Shootings

a reply to: Edumakated

i get what you mean, i won't derail your thread.

but back to bully,
bullying is a big part of the problem.

and American moral values favor retaliation over pacifism.
problem solving from bullying is to stand up to it, not understand it.

i think its about a mentality of revenge or making others pay, that our society is inundated with that is maybe forcing kids to feel these acts are the only answers.

originally posted by: Edumakated
One thing that seems to be glossed over in all these school shootings with the focus on guns is that the perpetrators almost always seem to be social misfits who were bullied.

There doesn't seem to be much emphasis on stopping bullying.

You cant much turn that into a left/right Wedge Issue, therefore the MSM will keep it all focused on both sides of the gun debate they've crafted.

It's up to us to not buy into their Municipal Grade Trolling.

a reply to: odzeandennz

I really think you hit the nail on the head with that post.

Movies, games, music and TV tend to show the good guy winning, no matter the odds and by most any means necessary. It doesn't reflect the realities of life and the way it shapes pride and ego.

To claim kids are acting out exact elements within those tropes wouldn't be fair BUT that doesn't mean that they want to and given the limited life experience would gravitate toward that exact result playing out.

Perhaps another valid question would be; is it by design or rather an unintended fallout from producing what sells?

originally posted by: Edumakated
This is not to excuse any of these nut bags from their crimes, but what responsibility do the students have in these cases?

speaking as someone who was bullied every single year of school, it never occurred to me to kill anyone because of it.

stopping bullying -- if that's possible -- will not stop these things from happening. these shooters are mentally disturbed and have access to guns. their madness can and will be triggered even if everyone is nice to them.

as far as addressing bullying, i thought then and think now that the adults in the environment have the responsibility to address it. you're asking what responsibility children have to prevent school shootings? very little, i think.

And right on que:

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Edumakated

I think you bring up some good points, though I do not think video games have much, if anything, to do with it.

We also have to address the gun culture in the US. It's become out-of-hand, in my opinion.

While I think we can agree that we have a 2nd amendment right and that right needs to be protected, we have many people in this country that have become part of a twisted culture in which the 2nd amendment right is more than just a right. It is a means to an end. It a solution for what they think is wrong with this country.

This site is a great example. Look how many people openly discuss and fantasize about a civil war in which they get to use their firearms against those they see as enemies.

Look how the NRA and the politicians play-off of that for their own goals.

That is another area we need to look at. Gun culture has gone completely nutty in this country and it may just have an affect of people.

Guns are entrenched in our society and thats that. The only bit its "gone beyond" is the Democrat jist of wanting to grab guns drives people to get them 'while they can'. Your kind jumping at guns (as if there's much that would change it at this point besides gun grabbing) is part of what I'm talking about here. So keep it up its the best 'advertising' the gun industry has ever seen.

originally posted by: Krakatoa

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Edumakated

I think you bring up some good points, though I do not think video games have much, if anything, to do with it.

We also have to address the gun culture in the US. It's become out-of-hand, in my opinion.

While I think we can agree that we have a 2nd amendment right and that right needs to be protected, we have many people in this country that have become part of a twisted culture in which the 2nd amendment right is more than just a right. It is a means to an end. It a solution for what they think is wrong with this country.

This site is a great example. Look how many people openly discuss and fantasize about a civil war in which they get to use their firearms against those they see as enemies.

Look how the NRA and the politicians play-off of that for their own goals.

That is another area we need to look at. Gun culture has gone completely nutty in this country and it may just have an affect of people.

I think you don't believe video games have anything to do with it because you probably like video games. I love video games. I love my FPS games and gratuitous violence. However, I can see how these games could desensitize someone who is already unstable.

I find it interesting that you believe a gun culture is a contributing factor but willing to excuse an extension of that culture which is in video games.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying we should ban video games or anything like that. However, I am saying I can see how hyper realistic video games could be a factor in encouraging a nut job to engage in a mass shooting. Of course, we are talking about a very small subset of the population, but I don't think we can ignore it as a variable.

Also, what goes along with the hyper-realistic games of today is the communication features that were not available even 10 years ago. And, that communication now is typically snarky and vile rhetoric (i.e. trash talk) that seems to get worse and more personal by the day.

Alone, this would not really be an issue, but combine that with:

- The acceptable levels of unnatural violence in movies and TV (while natural nudity is considered taboo)
- The younger taking SSRI mind altering meds
- The breakdown of the family unit
- The rejection of religious morals (none in particular here, just the idea of "treat people nice" common value)
- The "zero tolerance" approach to all things resulting in no personal 1:1 assessment and punishment of any incident
- The increased frequency of 24/7 bullying using electronic devices
- The youth have been convinced they need to be connected 24/7 or they are nothing and will miss out on life
- The rise and proliferation of social media platforms
- The "instant" gratification culture of today (patience is dead)
- The need for both parents to work to make ends meet
- The "everyone is special" and "everyone is a winner" social experiment foisted upon our culture by the social psychologists pushing their next book or lecture series (for the $$)


Each of these alone are surmountable and easily handled. However, being putting each of these straw on the shoulders of the youth and eventually one of their minds will break.

Yup. This is exactly my point with video games. By itself, a video game is harmless entertainment. However, you start throwing in other social dysfunctions into the mix, the video game could be a trigger or vehicle that desensitizes.

a reply to: Edumakated

The only known desirable outcome seems like a plausible scenario.

A lot of good points herein.

We still seem to be over-looking the MSM turning shooters into celebtrities as the final icing on the cake that drives shooters to actually do it.

Mass Shootings and the Media Contagion Effect

Media trains us from the cradle to obsess over FAME (popularity). But in every social scheme (school) there is an inherent pecking order. Not all the kids get to be cool, popular, etc. Instead some get the inverse and their asses kicked routinely; daily humiliations.

Then MSM teaches them they can still get FAME, even if not of the 'popular' variety, two birds with one firearm they can have both fame and get even.

Then science studies come out proving the MSM's role in the perpetual pattern.

So MSM works over-drive to keep the focus around the gun debate, and they continuously get away with the perfect crime.

a reply to: Edumakated

I think you don't believe video games have anything to do with it because you probably like video games. I love video games. I love my FPS games and gratuitous violence. However, I can see how these games could desensitize someone who is already unstable.

Do you believe the violence in Saturday morning cartoons have a similar desensitizing affect?

I find it interesting that you believe a gun culture is a contributing factor but willing to excuse an extension of that culture which is in video games.

I said it is something we need to look at.

If we are interested in finding solutions, we should not so easily dismiss things.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying we should ban video games or anything like that. However, I am saying I can see how hyper realistic video games could be a factor in encouraging a nut job to engage in a mass shooting. Of course, we are talking about a very small subset of the population, but I don't think we can ignore it as a variable.

Ok. I suppose we can look in to it as well.

I just find the example I gave to be a bit more relevant, considering it actually involves real people glorifying real violence against others they do not like.

Video games...it's animated fantasy.

a reply to: Edumakated

Take this with a grain of salt as the results are highly controversial but...
en.m.wikipedia.org...
Story goes that during world war 2, most soldiers didnt actually fire their weapon at the enemy, if they fired at all, and were resistant to killing another human being.
Seeing this, military changes over from bullseye circle targets to human silhouettes for targets and begins moving the firing distances. This is supposed to condition men to shoot at human shapes as a reflex, rather than have to discern a target and make the decision to fire.
After this change, it is reported that about 90% of soldiers(as participants of the fight, not total)are firing their weapons at human targets. As an aside, in basic training we had these green plastic molds of human shapes maybe 3-4 feet in height that we shot at. We called them Ivans. At 300 meters it was indistinguishable from a person to me (my eyes are crap though)
It wouldn't be a stretch to say that video games, especially first person shooters, could be conditioning developing brains to be able to shoot humans by rewarding them everytime they get a kill, and familiarizing (however slightly, as there is a big difference) with target acquisition.

a reply to: Whoisjohngalt

To be fair, the citizens ability to overthrow a tyrannical government via arms WAS the exact reason the founders put it in the constitution.

That is another entire debate that could be had at another time.

Now i dont think we are close to that, but 1925 Germany seemed pretty decent too, but 10 years later they were starting to gather people for the ovens. So who knows whats in store. If you wanna debate the relevance of the second amendment in 2018, okay, but made no mistake of WHY it was put there.

I do not necessarily question why it was put there. What I question is the culture that has been built around it in America and the people within it that use their 2nd amendment right as a threat against those they disagree with.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Guns are entrenched in our society and thats that.

Yes. As a subculture within the US, beyond the simple right to bear arms. That is what I said.

The only bit its "gone beyond" is the Democrat jist of wanting to grab guns drives people to get them 'while they can'.

Ok. You do not find it unreasonable that many have stated they can't wait for a civil war so they can fight those non-gun toting Leftists?

Your kind jumping at guns (as if there's much that would change it at this point besides gun grabbing) is part of what I'm talking about here. So keep it up its the best 'advertising' the gun industry has ever seen.

My kind? I'm a 2nd amendment supporter.

We cannot have a reasonable discussion until people such as yourself put aside your propaganda-based beliefs, assumptions and talk to people outside of your own echo chamber.

originally posted by: introvert

My kind? I'm a 2nd amendment supporter.

We cannot have a reasonable discussion until people such as yourself put aside your propaganda-based beliefs, assumptions and talk to people outside of your own echo chamber.

But you're still Mr. Team Democrat Talking Points around here.

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: odzeandennz.

To claim kids are acting out exact elements within those tropes wouldn't be fair BUT that doesn't mean that they want to and given the limited life experience would gravitate toward that exact result playing out.

Perhaps another valid question would be; is it by design or rather an unintended fallout from producing what sells?

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
A lot of good points herein.

We still seem to be over-looking the MSM turning shooters into celebtrities as the final icing on the cake that drives shooters to actually do it. :

i want to quote both of these in agreement.
this is the sort of critical thinking that is going to combat this epidemic, not gun control.

ill piggy back on that point, and say that these sort of debates we're having now, kudos to the OP, are sacrilegious with many of the pro gun crowd.

any attempt to discuss why kids turn to guns, automatically puts most of them in a defensive posture.

and the usual retort is the 2nd.

its almost impossible even here on ats to have this sort of discussion without going into 'its my right to own a firearm', when in reality even some pro gun folks simply want to address the drive behind the gun mentality in children.

kids see how guns are vehemently defended instead of their cause, and that only exacerbates their angst.

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Whoisjohngalt

To be fair, the citizens ability to overthrow a tyrannical government via arms WAS the exact reason the founders put it in the constitution.

That is another entire debate that could be had at another time.

Now i dont think we are close to that, but 1925 Germany seemed pretty decent too, but 10 years later they were starting to gather people for the ovens. So who knows whats in store. If you wanna debate the relevance of the second amendment in 2018, okay, but made no mistake of WHY it was put there.

I do not necessarily question why it was put there. What I question is the culture that has been built around it in America and the people within it that use their 2nd amendment right as a threat against those they disagree with.

That wanting to use it against other people because they got their feels hurt is something different entirely. Its an extension of a dude starting fights for dumb reasons. Thats separate from gun culture.

a reply to: Krakatoa

1. Sell drugs people don't need claiming they will cure any ailment
2. Rake in cash
3. Use said cash to buy politicians to do your bidding
4. Drug epidemic causes people to act out or develop mental conditions that cause them to perpetrate crimes
5. Use the crime increase as an excuse to increase the scope of the Police State and push for gun bans
6. Scared populace hands over their weapons
7. Populace is now powerless against the police state which rules them with an iron fist

These Bilderberg types are complete monsters, but you can't deny that they're very, very clever.

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

originally posted by: introvert

My kind? I'm a 2nd amendment supporter.

We cannot have a reasonable discussion until people such as yourself put aside your propaganda-based beliefs, assumptions and talk to people outside of your own echo chamber.

But you're still Mr. Team Democrat Talking Points around here.

I'm not a democrat either.

Just because I do not agree with everything the Right says/believes in, does not mean I spit democrat talking points.

Again, your ignorance and assumptions do nothing to perpetuate a reasonable discussion.

originally posted by: Whoisjohngalt

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Whoisjohngalt

To be fair, the citizens ability to overthrow a tyrannical government via arms WAS the exact reason the founders put it in the constitution.

That is another entire debate that could be had at another time.

Now i dont think we are close to that, but 1925 Germany seemed pretty decent too, but 10 years later they were starting to gather people for the ovens. So who knows whats in store. If you wanna debate the relevance of the second amendment in 2018, okay, but made no mistake of WHY it was put there.

I do not necessarily question why it was put there. What I question is the culture that has been built around it in America and the people within it that use their 2nd amendment right as a threat against those they disagree with.

That wanting to use it against other people because they got their feels hurt is something different entirely. Its an extension of a dude starting fights for dumb reasons. Thats separate from gun culture.

It's not separate when the people I speak of specifically state the 2nd amendment is part of the solution.

a reply to: odzeandennz

The 'guns gotta go' and 'come take em' argument can only be kicked along for so long.

Simple math is guns gotta go = bloodshed

Come and take em = bloodshed

Continuing on the same path = bloodshed.

originally posted by: Edumakated
One thing that seems to be glossed over in all these school shootings with the focus on guns is that the perpetrators almost always seem to be social misfits who were bullied.

There doesn't seem to be much emphasis on stopping bullying.

This is not to excuse any of these nut bags from their crimes, but what responsibility do the students have in these cases?

Bullies have been around forever, so it isn't like being bullied is a new thing. One of the best horror movies Carrie is essentially about a girl exacting revenge on her tormentors at high school prom. Instead of blasting them away with a assault rifle she did other things at the prom.

I think what is different now is that Columbine put into the minds that this was an acceptable form of revenge. Second, video games have popularized first person shooters. Third, incessant media coverage and social media seems to encourage copy cat shooters.

Just some random thoughts. Let's discuss and debate without talking about gun control, but the OTHER issues.

Better things.

lol.

Telekinesis is no joke.

Good thing ya can't buy it.