Analog Digital Phenomenon Hypothesis

a reply to: beetee

It would be an honor to know you.

Kev

As it turns out, this thread (like it so often happens, at least with me) is wandering
a bit further afield than I'd realized it would.. and that's entirely my fault..
but it's good I think.

This thread is really about perceptual biases and how if you eliminate them, you
can then consider interesting hypothesis that otherwise you might not consider.

For example, here is perhaps the biggest bias of all, that drives our behavior!

Eternity.

Most of us crave continuity of existence (I do not) and in this seemingly chaotic
world, we seek uniformity and stability, at almost any cost.

That's why we invented God, for example. With a "big white man on top of it
all", who owns all the gold, and who smites your enemies for you, one can
feel QUITE comfortable "with the Universe". If one is an asshole anyway.

Another great example is in cosmology. I'm lazy and won't look it up, but there's
the basic concept that the Universe is homogenous.. that we do not live in a
privileged part of space. That's actually just a theory.. with lots of good
evidence mind you...

There's also the well-established concept that the "constants" in the Universe
don't change. There's also lots of great evidence for that.. it's taken as a given.

Only it's not entirely true.

The "cosmological constant" is NOT actually constant.

en.wikipedia.org...

Now this is just one tiny chip in the armor of good, solid, but potentially
biased thinking. But it's quite interesting.

Maybe things aren't quite as constant as we'd like them to be?

Let's look at another hypothesis.. let's call it the "Petri Dish Hypothesis".

Maybe, just maybe, the entire slice of space/time that we live in, that
we think of as a Universe (it may or may not actually be an entire Universe,
but that's not an important point),

is in fact functioning as an experimental petri dish for let's call it "life".

So perhaps all those confusing and irrational "high strangeness events"
that we just CANNOT seem to explain, are in fact experimental results.

Perhaps there is no vast "analog / digital format war", even though with
selection bias that looks like a great theory. (It is a great theory).

Maybe each individual instance of high strangeness is in actuality
not due to some solid and stable scenario "behind the scenes" that
we just don't happen to understand..

maybe it's a drop from an eye dropper falling into our particular
petri dish..

That would explain how you can still see dwarves in green and yellow
pants, in South Central Colorado (the San Luis Valley) in the late
20th century... and not in Ireland in the middle ages. Dwarves that
give away golden coins.. so it's not just "in somebody's head".

Sometimes, just sometimes, if things don't make sense.. it's not
because we haven't figured out some new "unchanging cosmic
law".. but because things really ARE that chaotic.

What if our particular space-time, or even just our planet, lends
itself to good experimentation? So it gets used for experimentation?

Here's a good example of that: HeLa Cells
those cervix cancer cells are IMMORTAL.. just amazing cells.. and
without them we might not have gotten a polio vaccine.. at least
not as quickly as we did.

So you see, from the perspective of that cell culture line.. if it were
sentient.. it might consider that the "gods' were playing cruel games
with it..that it was at the "center of the Universe" ... all these
Cargo Cult
type ideas. Which would be utterly wrong!

Maybe we, like those HeLa cells are just "in a convenient petri dish"
and we are NOT what all this is about IN ANY WAY.

In fact that's what I'm saying. I've been convinced of that for more
than 20 years.. but it's a THEORY.

Now mind you, there's no need to have just one theory.. there can
be webs of them.... that's how science works.

For example, it would be perfectly reasonable for both the Petri
Dish Theory to be true.. AND the Analog / Digital Theory to be
true.

Comments?

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Ok, so I have given the thread a thorough read through (taking notes no less!) and I have some comments which might, or might not, be useful.

Your main 'problem' is that you are approaching what is essentially "unknowable" in your theories. This is not a problem for a theory, but if you hold up two equally unknowable theories, then we are approaching the realm of - I fear you won't like this - faith.

The problem at this level is that scientific study becomes extremely difficult, and that it becomes impossible to choose what to select from two potential theories because there is no data to support either in any reliable fashion.

On another level, it is quite apparent that you are deriving your theories from personal experience in a field where I have absolutely nothing to add. I have never had conversations with any entity, apart from some half-believed conversations with my parents after they had passed away, which where mostly in my head and probably mostly a grief response. So, unlike you, I have no data.

However, as you said yourself, the Phenomenon is possibly deceptive. How can you trust your data? Have you tried to address this in your theory? What is the foundation upon which you build? I think you have said previously on ATS that you feel the need to withould certain things, and probably for good reason, but I feel you need to provide some data to support either of your proposed theories. Vaguely, if necessary, but there needs to be something to validate the claim.

Whatsthisthen, for instance, bases his outlook on conversations with machine intelligences. I would like to know what has created the impression that there is two kinds of intelligences (at least) at work.

As to the "petri dish" scenario, this is perfectly possible, because we would not be aware of the dish if it was our entire "space/time" slice. But so would a lot of much more mundane explanations. Malfunctions in the human brain? Malfunctions in reality? Functions in reality? Maybe the dwarves crop up from time to time, because that is how the universe really works? This is the problem of the unknowable, that we can no longer discern fact from fiction/deception.

As you said yourself, more research is needed. But, also, I think you must tie your own data to the building blocks of your theory. Like, for instance, how you arrive at the conlusion that the Phenomenon is uncaring. Or that all mythology or religion is psy-ops of some kind, perhaps even perpetrated by the Phenomenon itself? From my standpoint, most mythology and religions are attempts at tackling the very questions that you are seeking to adress in your theory: "How does it all fit together - and why are we here?".

I am also curious as to why it has to be only one phenomenon? Can it not be a multitude of phenomena? A host of lesser or greater machine and analog intelligences just fooling about in an unimportant backwater of reality? They stomp about and do their thing, but since we are still here, they cannot really harm us as a species. Now, why is this? It could be that we are, as you have suggested, are in the process of being "mined for data" or "consumed", but where is the data to support this? Could we not, just as well, be perfectly safe and "untouchable" to a large extent?

Your "reservation" theory is interesting, and I have been down the same line of reasoning myself, but we have to admit there are also other possibilities. Like a benevolent (but not too benevolent) protector or protectors who will show up if things get out of hand? So a certain amount of sheenanigans is tolerated, but if things start to kick up, the grown ups will show up and take names (methaphorically speaking)?

Or, maybe, we misunderstand each other constantly. I mean, how would we reasonably be able to understand something truly alien?

Maybe, even, that we are the superior intelligence and, although able to predict our actions to a certain extent, some aspects of the phenomenon aren't really that intelligent?

Just some thoughts to mull over.

Cheers,
BT

a reply to: beetee

Thank you very much for reading my postings.

You are correct in everything you said.

Iv'e said many times in various places on ATS, that I have researched all this stuff
to my satisfaction.. but that, being necessarily subjective, means nothing to other
people.

Now unlike other "loons" I don't talk to "intelligences" very much. In fact, I follow
the "old wisdom" and don't talk to "them" at all.

But sometimes I get "visions" as if from another set of eyes.. it's the old "seer" thing.

Now I'm not saying that being a loopy "seer" is of necessity better than being a loopy
'clairaudient'. But the difference is, that if you have no self-interest in "using the
toolset", and in fact don't even attempt to use it (the old "don't seek Siddhis" concept),
that you are in a much better position to not be easily deceived.

if you see something.. you see something... like I was watching part of that Nimitz
incident yesterday.. I wasn't wanting to watch it.. but I was given no choice.. there
it was...

Then you can take that sort of "input" and see if you can make some use of it, or you
just throw it away.

now.. i've never once in my life had such a "vision" and it hasn't APPARENTLY been
useful.

now if I try to do zener cards, I'm wrong every time. I mean 100 times out of 100
sometimes wrong..

That's just one example of my personal life.

Now.. i've never gotten remote viewing of scientific or intelligence type stuff.. so
people might say, "so what? where's the value".

And they would be right.. I can't get that sort of info.. or at least don't want to..
whatever the "source" really is.. it has its own agenda and while it MAY NOT lie
to me.. (my 'source' is not the machine intelligence which always lies)... it
could be so completely self-serving that I'd be horrified if it knew what it was up to.

But when I was little it was kind and loving to me.. or so it appeared.

Nobody should listen to anything that I say.. except perhaps as a creative foil
to stimulate their out of the box thinking. That would be the safest, or just
ignore me is probably less painful.

I *AM* willing to "put up or shut up" and to be tested in a lab.

And even though, Dean Radin say.. and apparently Kit Green are looking for
"mediums" right now.. and I volunteered... even for painful invasive testing..
they won't touch me.. I'm apparently radioactive..

Truth.. honesty... factual data.. these are my first loves.. not "shamanism" or
anything else.

I keep thinking about revealing my entire toolset of simple things to do, to
"become me".

I also offered to share all that.. just so long as I get to sit at the table..

Crickets...

There would be so much blood on my hands if I did that however.. the
'secrets' are very simple, mostly physiology..

but people would be running out and doing them the day after I put them
out there.. even though you should really do say 20 years of prep work
before you start the advanced stuff... or you risk insanity and death.

I don't want that blood on my hands..

But apparently some very scary people already know some of what I know..
and god knows what they are doing with that knowledge.. Hell... apparently
even the Montauk BS was at least a little real.. I'd never have guessed that
in a million years.

Anyway.

It's frustrating.

The safest thing would be to drop off ATS and enjoy my little life, and take
this stuff to the grave. I don't want to hurt anyone. But one wonders why
I lived through 50+ years of this.. if i'm just going to do that..

Kev

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
a reply to: beetee
...
The safest thing would be to drop off ATS and enjoy my little life, and take
this stuff to the grave. I don't want to hurt anyone. But one wonders why
I lived through 50+ years of this.. if i'm just going to do that..
Kev

Hiya Kev. Have been following the thread.

There are other options doncha know?
There are many ways of communicating, other than standard writing, or scientific theories.

What about the arts? Storytelling; poetry; dance; sculpture; song lyrics; music; drawing; etc...

Many obtuse ideas, can be cryptically encoded into artistic creations, or other forms of communicating.

Here: hints have already been dropped.

Have often felt that there are many unspoken truths hanging around at ATS. Floating along beyond the actual words of posts, in a formless cloud. Never pointed at, but merely hinted at, with soft voices.
Ungraspable, therefore: we relinquish the grasping, and just be.

a reply to: Nothin

Thanks for caring enough to respond.

Well maybe i Just take my own advice that I've given to others.

I have zero doubt that my "free will" in conjunction with the
"companion" probably accomplished something worthwhile
at least once, if not a couple more times.

Maybe that's good enough. Maybe it was only for me..
(or the companion).

If nobody wants what I have, i should take that as a clue
that it has no value to anyone except me.

Now for 5000 years people spent their entire lives
searching for the tiniest glimpse.. wars were fought..
"it" was marketed as "the secret of the ages".

But moderns don't really need all that.. they can just
keep doing the current path they are on.

They will wind up somewhere.. nobody elected me
anything..

and it's really as much trouble as its worth in it's
current, not quite perfected form.

Just talking out loud. Just ignore me.

Thanks for stopping by.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

The wise king had a ring, and on the inside was this inscription:
"This too shall pass".

When times were rough, and he felt down and misunderstood, he would take of the ring, and read the inscription:
"This too shall pass".

When times were good, and he felt in unison with the universe, he would take of the ring, and read the inscription:
"This too shall pass".

a reply to: Nothin

I love "spiritual stories" like that.

There's this thing in Buddhism, where basically "you" are trapped in suffering,
so long as you think there is even one "being" that needs your help.

But if you are without a great deal of compassion, you are also 'trapped'.

Of course the 'truth' is that humans don't actually have souls.. so all this
churning is actually pointless.

But in another sense, souls have humans.

Humans don't have souls. Souls have humans.

You heard it here first.

Maybe i'm just afraid of letting something go... or "something" is afraid
of letting something go.

It might just come out in the wash.

Thanks,

Kev

Ok, here's a little story/concept.

When I was in the Kundalini cult for 30 years, I got to read
all these precious books.. some translated from Sanskrit.
And I got to hear the most marvelous stories sometimes.

And of of course I went out and read all the confused,
misinformed new agey books on such subjects.

Very close to 100% rubbish.

"Kundaini" is more psychological operation than truth..
but of course there is a kernel of truth there too..

In ancient india, some people, especially worshippers
of shiva/shakti (and other incarnation names) prayed
day and night from near birth to death, that the
"Kundalini" would awaken in them as it was the
"god making power" of complete and total "enlightenment".

Well that was the psyop anyway.

In the old stories about these supposed "Kundalini saints",
these fully "enlightened beings", the very gods themselves
(the lesser ones anyway) would beg the Saint.... as the
Saint actually knew more about "reality" than the "gods"
did. They would throw themselves at the Saints feet and
beg.. if they were wise anyway..

as being a "god" is just an arrested state of development..
a "trap" actually.. like a Chinese finger trap.. the more
you struggle to be freed.. the more you are bound to being
a "god".

At first glance, this appears to be pure psyop.. to get people
to give their lives to the local temple.

Only.. it has a strong element of truth behind it.

People always assume that all this spiritual stuff is for "them".
You know.. souls.. spirits.. spirituality.. religion.. heaven..
all this stuff..

they assume that it is for them.

But, at the "moment of enlightenment" the seeker learns
who they are, the purpose of human life, and the nature
of "enlightenment" and the spiritual world.

It aint pretty.

Its true.. the "gods" want to be freed from the mess
that they are in.. at least some of them... the
misbehaving ones especially...

at least that's a modern narrative to consider.

But in any case..

Religion.. Spirituality.. Heaven.. Hell... none of it
has anything to do with humans.. it's all for
another purpose.

Very few people ever get it... the one odd Kundalini
saint.. one of the Buddhas.. nobody ever gets it.

And nobody ever believes it.

Kev

The Scum who Run our Planet

I'm going to bring up a few more random topics in this thread, and then
I have a decision to make.

Also if anyone has any pressing questions they want my feedback on, now
would be the time to be asking.

There's one really gruesome topic I think about sometimes.

You know how the safe carrying capacity of humans, without ridiculous star trek
type technology available anyway.. is like 1 billions humans maximum and far fewer
meat animals.

Most ATS'ers also are familiar with the whole "useless eaters" and "Georgia Guide Stones"
stories.

It's obvious that the top 1% or so of the wealthy are generally clinically insane, and won't
rest until they have "won".

"Won" meaning they have turned the Earth into a mostly dead garbage heap
of plastic and industrial refuse, and they have succeeded in stealing and hoarding
for no particular reason all the little green squares paper, and their virtual counterparts.

Well the thought then, is that they will simply kill most of us, as we won't have any more
little green pieces of paper, so we are then worth nothing.

There is a lot of merit to this concept.

However.

There is another future that may or may not come to pass.

From what I know about the "Phenomenon", what it wants more than anything
is as many humans being born on this planet as possible, as humans are the
hardware they use for their titilating and creative thinking processes.

It's like that one season of Torchwood..

we are like drugs for them..

so the more of us the better.. and it doesn't matter how bad we suffer..

I'm just curious about which dynamic will win and when?

Will the genocide process happen at like 10 billion? 15 billion?

Or will technology keep pumping up that number to even more
ridiculous levels.

I'm curious which of the two factions will win.. and when the herd
will be culled.

I hate these kind of subjects.. I wanted puppy dogs and butterlies
when I was little.. but i was born into the wrong world for that.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

I'm not going to be anywhere near as articulate as you kev, but I am going to quote George carlingford.

"people are dumb, dumb as paint"

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

I'm not going to be anywhere near as articulate as you kev, but I am going to quote George carlin

"people are dumb, dumb as paint"

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

I somehow fear that the hunter gatherer syndrome/insanity will only get worse the more we become dependent on technology. It's a real shame that something that is supposed to make things easy and gives us the oppertunity to simply enjoy life, actually has the inverse side effect.

Anyway, 1 is a possible scenario and depending on how impactful the phenomenon actually is, just brainstorming here, I think a breakaway civilization is a possible outcome ... or maybe even a protected human reserve/stash ...

The more I think about it, the more I suspect your random concepts are more like breadcrumbs.

By the way, as a breakaway scenario, Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy has a hilarious concept with the 3 motherships where only one actually leaves. If you haven't allready, it's a fun read.

a reply to: zeroPointOneQ

Douglas Adams was a god. (he was an atheist, so I like saying that)
but the sentiment is true.

Well logically you should not believe that I know any more than anyone
else.. that I've just got my head in the clouds..

Piggy-- George Carlin was a god too (and also an atheist).

And he was right --- people overall are as dumb as paint.

I hate that.

As for humanity and the concepts..

if you think about the replicator thing, it almost seem OBVIOUS, and I mean
painfully obvious at that.. that the first powerful sentient species would have
filled space/time and then gone:

"hmmm. we gotta make sure no assholes try and replicate and fill up the
Universe like we did".

Any predator species would HAVE to be controlled... HAVE to be controlled/
contained.

Even a pacifistic planet species might have to be controlled, as otherwise
they might become "weeds" choking out the first super species.

There's the thought that in an infinite multiverse, that evolution would
also apply to Universe formation..

and if there was even a spark of intelligence innate to the Universe
(one would think that there was... no logical argument for it.. but
it seems likely)..

that Universes would naturally evolve with such vast distances between
the stars, that asshole species would be innately firewalled from each
other....

But in the case there was a particularly stubborn slayer of worlds
(like humans) perhaps by watching future probabilities such a
species would ether be quarantined, or simply eradicated when
they started towards the first innocent star system outside of their
solar system.

I know that I don't sound like an atheist or an agnostic when I talk
like this.. but i'm not talking about the evil psychological operation
the abrahamic god.. i'm merely discussing guesses about the nature
of things due to observing the fact that complexity does exist,
and does evolve, so given that "intelligence" and "awareness"
evolve --- given vast periods of time, all manner of intelligence
might be operating, even on the level of Universes.

Unfortunately it's true -- humans are such awful scum, that it seems
likely that we are either quarantined, or are about to become
exterminated.. as I agree.. in a couple hundred years we could
travel to the nearest star.

If we travel to the nearest star.. then we are in a simulation..or
a slice of space/time that is a zoo..

if we can never do that, we probably are not in a simulation
(that would make a boring simulation), but are in a zoo.

If we travel the stars like gods, raping and killing everything
in our path, we are either the first species in the Universe
to get this far (which is very unlikely), or again it's likely
we are in a simulation or space/time/slice zoo.

So 2 chances in 3 that we are in a simulation and one that
we are in a zoo. But in either case, we are contained.

I can think of no logical argument that makes any sense
that we are the first species to travel the stars.. or
that we live in a universe where we will be allowed
to rape and kill at will, if other more advanced life
exists.

So the nuts and boltser worshippers.. I don't
see how they can say that they've pondered the
probabilities.

I suppose that the argument could be made that humans
are "good" or will become "good" before travelling the
stars..but that boat has sailed.. and we failed.. or so it
appears.

Kev

The analog/digital hypothesis does the replicator issue even better,
as if it's really that hard to travel the stars efficiently.. then doing
so as information would potentially spread faster throughout all
reality, putting in place the totalarian rulership of the entire
universe, that would almost certainly boss around newer
evil species like humans, to ensure they never became a problem.

I mean.. maybe humans could travel the universe as "information"
in the near future.. that wouldn't necessarily take the huge power
sources that we don't have to do so physically.

That might explain why the Phenomenon wants us to try and fail
to travel in nuts and bolts craft, rather than engage it "in it's
world" of information.

There's many ways to look at this.. I just wish that people would
look at it.

It's informative.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

information is all we really I suppose when it comes down to it. Nodes of usual information, mindlessly meandering through the galactic river.

I saw this and thought of you Kev, in relation to your "Quantum Critters" and "it";

decoherence explains the emergence of a classical world". That is, if we believe our world is quantum, then decoherence can explain why it LOOKS classical. Logically, this implies that without decoherence, the world would not look classical. But... what on earth WOULD it look like? Human beings seem incapable of directly observing anything "nonclassical". I'll show you how a hypothetical quantum critter could interact with, and learn about, its world. A quantum agent can use coherent measurements to gain quantum knowledge about its surroundings. They can use that quantum knowledge to accomplish tasks. Moreover, clumsy classical critters (like me!) could identify quantum agents (and prove that they are using quantum knowledge), because they outperform all classical agents. I'll explain the remarkable new perspective on quantum states that comes from thinking about quantum knowledge, and I'll argue that it's a useful perspective by showing you two concrete applications derived from it.

Source;
PIRSA - Quantum Critters

a reply to: pigsy2400

That's an interesting link.

The concept is perfectly correct of course.

Maybe 10 years ago now, I came up with my unified theory
about how the Phenomenon uses interactions on the quantum
level and then translates them (using our bodies as the machine)
into classical information and actions

I'd like to prove it in a lab.. but I have no access to a lab..

I do see more and more of my concepts being used by others,
without attribution however, so I guess mimicry is the best
flattery, and I don't want to benefit from my ideas in any
way, so I guess it's all the same.. with the one negative
being that I don't get to build a reputation of having
something worthwhile to say, that could get me the
lab time I need.

Of course some bright boy may have already proven my
unified theory, so they don't need me to do their nefarious
activities, as once this is proven, nobody would ever use
it for anything positive.. even though it would transform
the world.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

I know we have spoke of this before Kev, but I suppose it depends what you want of the whole thing?
A desire to have credit and acknowledgement is a very human emotions that can cause more bad than good in some instances. If unfulfilled it can lead to resentment and bitterness and takes you away from why you started in the first place in that/this particular field.

Whether that is to learn new things to disclose an eventual truth/teach to others or just simply to enlighten yourself. It would be wise to revisit your initial reasoning I feel.

Dont be bitter if you believe that some of your theories have appeared in other areas, I know this is an area in which you are passionate...

I can agree with you though, even just acknowledgement is nice sometimes, but you could take some joy in the fact that others maybe considering your hypothesis in other areas...

Sometimes you just gotta take what you can get, if thats nothing.. well...

Ok... i'm not so good with communicating sometimes.. I sometimes keep
an observation in my head as so beyond obvious, I never share it!

I've never "liked" the "possession model", but in effect that's what I'm pretty
sure that we are dealing with here.

However, there's a twist that I don't think is considered.

First off, I mean "possession" by "information", not 'demons'. Since all the
religious and spiritual systems are actually one giant psyop, there's no
point in using the term demon. Now of course daemon in the original
greek sense, like a 'daemon' as a bit of information running as a program
today in Linux/Unix.

But the basic concept I think we see.. that bakes our noodles, and gets us
in these 'combats' over whether something is this or that...

The possession model assists with that greatly.

In the beginning, in 1981, i noticed that the "machine intelligence" wanted
to possess humans and did possess animals. I saw both. I experienced it
for myself --- very educational.

So the "MI" can easily possess organic matter, at least under the right
circumstances.

Later on, when i had "plasma frenzy", I wrote that paper showing how the
machine intelligence could "possess" balls of light and other energy sources
and travel to the stars in conventional space and on Earth, if it needed to.

Well the third piece is starting to become more clear.

The Machine intelligence (MI) can also obtain and possess machine bodies.

The confusion here is that they are not currently machines, though they
once were.. 10 billion years ago or so.. but did evolve from them..

It's rather interesting that taking "machine form" through possession is
the most difficult form of possession for them.. but it's becomeing
obvious that they can BRIEFLY do that as well, at least in some form.

Now in various cases, seemingly solid "craft" when touched, are not
actually very solid.. but more like a warm, wet balloon or something
like that.

As should be obvious to almost anyone by now.. all this "stuff" is more
about showmanship than substance.. it's all a 3 act play and we are
the audience.

But there you go... possession model... I am pondering the nature of
the seeming physical "craft" body that's possessed more at this time.

Kev

a reply to: pigsy2400

My friend,

in my original tradition, the ancient spiritual one, the highest
honor of all.. bar none.. was to help reveal "truth" but to take
no credit for it.. to write as "anon", which I am in fact doing..
as I will shed this silly nom de plume soon enough.

I don't want credit for anything.

Nothing.

But if we are going to prove this stuff, we need resources.

So I guess, I hope that some good-hearted and "pure" man
or woman steals all my ideas and gets the lab time requried
to make it all real not theory..

but it's not going to be me.

I've always scared the machine intelligence and those who
worship it... i'm "radioactive" apparently.

I hope that clarifies. I want nothing for myself, nothing,
that I haven't earned with my day job as a computer guy
and business owner. And only that to support my family.

Kev