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Is Calvinism ( reformed theology ) and its 5 point TULIP system biblically accurate or a lie ?

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posted on May, 9 2018 @ 11:58 PM
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Question for all who’ve read the bible to some degree or another .

If you’ve read up on TULIP the model Calvinism adheres to , do you believe it is an accurate portrayal of who God is?

Or do you believe it’s a system penned by men that has been either grossly misinterpreted ?

I can personally say , the God of Arminianism vs the God of Calvinism are two vastly different Gods in character .

I no longer go to church anymore and my faith has been rocked in many ways , because my old church ( though nowhere near as bad as others ) taught and still teaches Calvinism as biblically accurate for the most part.

For me to try to pretend like I was ok with believing God predestined the majority of the world before they were even born for hell before they were even born and nothing they said or did could change that, and only gave some of the lucky elect ones a lottery ticket out of here to heaven for absolutely no reason at all , it got to a point where it was impossible to deny the obvious problem within ..

It put me in this horrible conflict of having to question everything I had ever known about Jesus and his love for the entire world as displayed on the cross ..

It made the concept of a final justice seem pointless , because ultimately this theology isn’t about personal accountability of your own volition to love God and love others and seek with all your heart to follow Christ ..

If everything is pre determined , than that would in effect mean that even the sins we all commit would be too .

I never understood how Calvinism could reconcile the obvious problem with this equation here - that being , how can one be held responsible and blamed if they had no say in the matter ?


I’ve read stories firsthand of how this has destroyed the faiths of many . Is there any way to make sense of it all and have peace in it all if it’s true ?

And if it’s one of the most clever lies ever told , how do you see through those lies and carry on seeking the truth of what the bible is really saying ?



edit on 10-5-2018 by freedom7 because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 10 2018 @ 12:24 AM
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Pretty easy question, actually, even though great minds seem to like to debate it.

First, No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
That's John 6:44.

Next, John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

So, all men are drawn without exception. Calvinism is dead.

Now, go back to a good church and love Christ by loving others.



posted on May, 10 2018 @ 12:32 AM
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a reply to: freedom7

God knows the end from the beginning. That doesn't mean he chooses our actions for us. Man is ultimately responsible for his own actions and saying your life is predestined is not an excuse for anything and will not save you.



posted on May, 10 2018 @ 12:37 AM
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a reply to: freedom7

You should pray and ask the Father these questions. You will get a better answer than anyone else can give you.



posted on May, 10 2018 @ 12:49 AM
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a reply to: freedom7

I've never found 'God' in a church like setting. I've however, found 'God' in myself and in others. I look at each and every human with God like potentials. Freewill is the beauty of our species, we have the will power to enrich and influence all living and non living things. How we enrich and influence them defines our character, and the sincerities behind our actions define our destination. Heaven to me is looking back on your life and being proud of being or becoming a positive force in this world. Hell to me is looking back at your life in disgust, regretting not changing for the better, and never being at peace with who you were.

I look at things differently, I am my own god as you are yours. Be the best you, you can be, and leave this temporary existence on a good note.

Cheers,
-StS



posted on May, 10 2018 @ 01:45 AM
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a reply to: freedom7
To my mind, the Calvinist approach to theology is legalistic. That's the fundamental problem. The human mind has always tended towards legalism, which is one of the varieties of idolatry (being motivated by "let's have something we can grasp firmly"). The church of the Middle Ages developed one way of making religious teaching legalistic, the churches of the Reformation rejected that and began coming up with other ways. When you see people incessantly making fine distinctions, which is certainly what happens in Calvinist theology, that is one of the clues that give away the presence of legalism.

There is language in the Bible which implies that God chooses us, and there is language in the Bible which implies that we choose God. Perhaps the case is that both are true, in some way beyond our understanding.
"However, the presence or absence of freedom of choice is really just a point of theory, an academic issue . We are clearly instructed and expected to behave as though we do have freedom of choice, and to commit ourselves to God voluntarily. That is what matters, in practical terms."
(I put that in quotation marks because I'm copying it from one of my future ATS threads)

There are plenty of non-Calvinist churches you can shift over to. John Wesley was Arminian, for a start.
The argument between Freewill and Predestination is best left to the fallen angels in Hell;
“Others apart sat on a hill retired,
In thoughts more elevate, and reasoned high
Of Providence, Foreknowledge, Will, and Fate-
Fixed fate, free will, foreknowledge absolute-
And found no end, in wandering mazes lost.”
Paradise Lost, Book II, ll557-561, John Milton





edit on 10-5-2018 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2018 @ 02:16 AM
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beyondcalvinism.blogspot.com.au...

I flirted with Calvinism doctrines but ended up being quite repelled by it in the end
Bruxy Cavey was instrumental in changing my opinion,see link

As Dis said above, Calvinists are very legalistic and as Scotty said, go love people.
Toolman said we should just ask God, I disagree, there is an army of Christians who study theology and have answers, we are in community, asking God, asking each other is what scripture teaches

I believe we are all in the church, Calvinists as well. Though I also believe we all need each other to sharpen our beliefs. Being in a church community is very important, we are created for relationship
I am some what of a Molinist myself, somewhere in between Calvinism and Arminianism, somewhere

It's a good question to ask
edit on 10-5-2018 by Raggedyman because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2018 @ 02:44 AM
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Calvin's heretical teachings are completely contrary to the Bible...


“...extreme Calvinism, the teaching that some people, by the foreordained plan of God, are predestined to be saved and some are predestined to be lost, and that their destinies were settled before they were born, is a wicked heresy contrary to the Bible, that dishonors God and has done incalculable harm. The heresy of extreme Calvinism is particularly appealing.“ Predestined to Hell

“Once the revolution had been decided upon, the Jewish plotters introduced Calvinism into England to split Church and State, and divide the people. Contrary to general belief, Calvinism is of Jewish origin. It was deliberately conceived to split the adherents of the Christian religions and divide the people. Calvin's real name was Cohen!“ The Luciferian Conspiracy Of Calvinism



posted on May, 10 2018 @ 04:09 AM
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originally posted by: Murgatroid
Calvin's heretical teachings are completely contrary to the Bible...


“...extreme Calvinism, the teaching that some people, by the foreordained plan of God, are predestined to be saved and some are predestined to be lost, and that their destinies were settled before they were born, is a wicked heresy contrary to the Bible, that dishonors God and has done incalculable harm. The heresy of extreme Calvinism is particularly appealing.“ Predestined to Hell

“Once the revolution had been decided upon, the Jewish plotters introduced Calvinism into England to split Church and State, and divide the people. Contrary to general belief, Calvinism is of Jewish origin. It was deliberately conceived to split the adherents of the Christian religions and divide the people. Calvin's real name was Cohen!“ The Luciferian Conspiracy Of Calvinism



I don't think your argument (the link) about Calvin being a Jew is valid. Most of all early Christians were Jews. Should we attack all those Jews who teach anything.
That site you linked seemed nothing more than a anti Jewish rant

I certainly wouldn't call Calvinists non Christian either.



posted on May, 10 2018 @ 04:18 AM
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a reply to: freedom7

I don't really know anything about Calvinism or Arminianism. I have attempted to read about it but so far the explanations haven't "clicked" mostly because they all refer to other things I don't understand yet.

Predetermination does seem like something of a reality according to the Bible. How else could anything be prophesied?

Except for a small number of predestined individuals, I think it works like statistics. The entire group might go in a certain direction but any specific individual can have a different outcome depending upon free will, chance, and what kind of help they might receive. Hence, the value of prayer.

People do have free will but for one reason or another they do not choose to exercise it. They just go with the prevailing trends.



posted on May, 10 2018 @ 09:06 AM
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My take on this is that Hell is an heretical concept, supported by pagan intrusion and bad translation. Some years ago, I decided to do some research to see which was correct:

Damnationism - including Calvinism in all its forms - eternal conscious torment

Annihilationism - the wicked reduced to ashes, forever

Universalism - all are saved in the end.

This was my trilemma, and I resolved it in favor of universalism in over two years of research into the King James Bible. My notes became a 200+ page book.

I can say with confidence that "Hell" is from paganism, both the word and the concept.



posted on May, 10 2018 @ 09:25 AM
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originally posted by: Lazarus Short
I can say with confidence that "Hell" is from paganism, both the word and the concept.

It's plagiarized from Mithraism.



posted on May, 10 2018 @ 10:09 AM
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originally posted by: freedom7
If you’ve read up on TULIP the model Calvinism adheres to , do you believe it is an accurate portrayal of who God is?

No.


originally posted by: freedom7
Or do you believe it’s a system penned by men that has been either grossly misinterpreted ?

It's a system rely on faith that copyists make no errors.


originally posted by: freedom7
I can personally say , the God of Arminianism vs the God of Calvinism are two vastly different Gods in character .

I keep my personal opinion on God's character.


originally posted by: freedom7
I no longer go to church anymore and my faith has been rocked in many ways , because my old church ( though nowhere near as bad as others ) taught and still teaches Calvinism as biblically accurate for the most part.

Matthew 23:8-12
But none of you should be called a teacher. You have only one teacher, and all of you are like brothers and sisters. Don’t call anyone on earth your father. All of you have the same Father in heaven. None of you should be called the leader. The Messiah is your only leader. Whoever is the greatest should be the servant of the others. If you put yourself above others, you will be put down. But if you humble yourself, you will be honored.


originally posted by: freedom7
For me to try to pretend like I was ok with believing God predestined the majority of the world before they were even born for hell before they were even born and nothing they said or did could change that, and only gave some of the lucky elect ones a lottery ticket out of here to heaven for absolutely no reason at all , it got to a point where it was impossible to deny the obvious problem within ..

Pretend to believe doesn't work with Omniscience God.


originally posted by: freedom7
It put me in this horrible conflict of having to question everything I had ever known about Jesus and his love for the entire world as displayed on the cross ..

So I tell you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.


originally posted by: freedom7 It made the concept of a final justice seem pointless , because ultimately this theology isn’t about personal accountability of your own volition to love God and love others and seek with all your heart to follow Christ ..

If everything is pre determined , than that would in effect mean that even the sins we all commit would be too .

I never understood how Calvinism could reconcile the obvious problem with this equation here - that being , how can one be held responsible and blamed if they had no say in the matter ?

Genesis 4:7
If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it.”

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Matthew 12:37
For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”


originally posted by: freedom7
I’ve read stories firsthand of how this has destroyed the faiths of many . Is there any way to make sense of it all and have peace in it all if it’s true ?

No.


originally posted by: freedom7
And if it’s one of the most clever lies ever told , how do you see through those lies and carry on seeking the truth of what the bible is really saying ?

Logic. If two statements contradict each other, then either one of them is false, or both of them are false.
edit on 10-5-2018 by EasternShadow because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2018 @ 02:02 PM
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It's really not that difficult once you wrap your head around it the first time.

It has to do with understanding that God is outside of time as we understand it. He is the alpha and the omega, beginning and end. That means that while we are stuck to linear time, He never was. Even as He began it all, it was ending and He was there.

How else do you think He was relaying prophecy to the prophets? He was seeing it. He took them to it.

So maybe God does know what ultimately happens for you and me and everyone else by implication, but ... He's not spoiling it. So you and me and everyone else? We have no idea what's going to happen. Our lives are still a mystery to us. We don't know, and we have to muddle through as best we can. It is for us to seek and call and hopefully find or be found.

To say that because someone, somewhere has the knowledge of what is or will be, even though we don't have that knowledge and therefore, there is no point in anything is silly.

It would be like saying that because you may have seen the movie Black Panther and I haven't that there is now no point in me seeing it because *you* know what happens, and if someone knows what happens, then I might as well not even bother even if I still don't know what happens.

Or it's like saying that since God knows everything, then He knows who will win Super Bowl 2019, and if He knows that, then why even bother playing the season? But if they don't play the season, no one will win Super Bowl 2019 because no one will even qualify to be in the game.



posted on May, 10 2018 @ 08:01 PM
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originally posted by: Lazarus Short
My take on this is that Hell is an heretical concept, supported by pagan intrusion and bad translation. Some years ago, I decided to do some research to see which was correct:

Damnationism - including Calvinism in all its forms - eternal conscious torment

Annihilationism - the wicked reduced to ashes, forever

Universalism - all are saved in the end.

This was my trilemma, and I resolved it in favor of universalism in over two years of research into the King James Bible. My notes became a 200+ page book.

I can say with confidence that "Hell" is from paganism, both the word and the concept.


It's a quandry worth its own thread, universalism hey?
Pretty sure Constantine was a universalist, considering the people he use to associate with, it's a decent theology
My problem with universalism is God forces a relationship on those who don't want the relationships
Guess I am a judgement, justice and anhialation believer. Hell for a time then anhialation
I could never deny universalism,, "every knee will bow"



posted on May, 11 2018 @ 08:49 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI


Text The argument between Freewill and Predestination is best left to the fallen angels in Hell;

Good thoughts. Predestination is only through foreknowledge. This and "died for everyone's sins" are two of the greatest misunderstandings that I believe are being fed to people today. My opinion of course.




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