Pyramid of Giza and Speed of Light

originally posted by: Themaskedbeast
a reply to: Vasa Croe

That is kilometers per second not miles miles per second is 186272 miles per sec:

Meters not miles.

a reply to: Vasa Croe


IMO there are only two possible explanations: coincidence or a deliberate choice by somebody.

I think it is a message of sorts. Some of have received the message, some of us refuse to understand.

originally posted by: Salander
a reply to: Vasa Croe


IMO there are only two possible explanations: coincidence or a deliberate choice by somebody.

I think it is a message of sorts. Some of have received the message, some of us refuse to understand.

I disagree.
I think that some consent to self-delusion, and others remain in the world of reality and facts.

Harte

a reply to: Harte


Not sure of your point, but delusional humans have been with the species as long as it's been here. I don't see what delusional humans have to do with the location of the pyramids or the speed of light.

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

The Mesopotamians of that era used the 360 degree system, and an arc minute had meaning for them.

Where is your evidence for that statement?
The use of a sexagesimal number system does not imply knowledge of Earth's rotation, nor of a degree system for angle measure nor of the subdivisions of a degree.

Harte

Yes.... it really pretty much does. You could only support a hypothesis that one would be existent without the other if you are speaking from a position of ignorance about how trigonometry works (and how it would work even if aliens from another galaxy were doing it.) It is possible, but not plausible.

The most useful angles for making ideal measurements are at 30,45,60, and 90 degrees. So you need a notation that is evenly divisible by 12, 8, 6, and 4 If they used a 60 degree circle, they lose the 8.

And the ENTIRE point of the 60 count system was to make it easy to use fractions. 60 was chosen because it is evenly divisible by more numbers than any other number between 1 and 100. It is kind of an "anti-prime" in a sense, which is useful if you want to construct a numbering system and use as few decimals/fractions as possible.

Nobody wants to have to mess with 7.5 degree angles, if it can be avoided. Not when you're doing your calculations on an abacus.

I teach trigonometry. No, such a number system doesn't imply any knowledge about the rotation of the Earth.

Academics in ancient history didn't work like it does now, with everyone always being on the same page. As a teacher, you of all people should understand how difficult it would be to give everyone a uniform education if you didn't have the technology to mass produce text books. Do all the children in your class have to come up to the front of the room and read from the same scroll?

It's ridiculous to assume anything written on a public wall, or temple, represents the extent of the most educated engineers' knowledge of the day.

What is certain is that whoever devised the 360 degree system was familiar with sexigesimal numbering (or like say 99.99.... % likely, but not quite certain, just so nearly that you'd be taking long odds to bet against it.)

That gives us a fairly narrow pool of contestants for who might have devised it, and when. But the Mesopotamians may not have been the first to use sexigesimal numbering. Just the first we know of. If it was widespread in their day enough to find remnants, then it probably wasn't new.

Besides that, wouldn't you need to show that they knew the Earth was rotating before you could support such a claim?
Their own writings and mythology indicate they knew nothing at all about the shape, or motion, of the Earth.

Harte

This sounds a lot like the flat Earth myth. (IE. the myth that claims people of Columbus' time didn't know the Earth was round.) Which has been widely debunked.

www.washingtonpost.com... 385492

It's real easy to convince ourselves the ancients were stupid. It makes it seem like European Christians invented everything, when the reality is more along the lines of European Christians burning all the books that held knowledge, and then managing to RE-invent what they had destroyed. (Or sometimes get it from one of the few surviving copies, and then claim to invent it.)

originally posted by: Salander
a reply to: Harte


Not sure of your point, but delusional humans have been with the species as long as it's been here. I don't see what delusional humans have to do with the location of the pyramids or the speed of light.

Self-delusion figures heavily into both claims.

Harte

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

The Mesopotamians of that era used the 360 degree system, and an arc minute had meaning for them.

Where is your evidence for that statement?
The use of a sexagesimal number system does not imply knowledge of Earth's rotation, nor of a degree system for angle measure nor of the subdivisions of a degree.

Harte

Yes.... it really pretty much does. You could only support a hypothesis that one would be existent without the other if you are speaking from a position of ignorance about how trigonometry works (and how it would work even if aliens from another galaxy were doing it.) It is possible, but not plausible.

The most useful angles for making ideal measurements are at 30,45,60, and 90 degrees. So you need a notation that is evenly divisible by 12, 8, 6, and 4 If they used a 60 degree circle, they lose the 8.

And the ENTIRE point of the 60 count system was to make it easy to use fractions. 60 was chosen because it is evenly divisible by more numbers than any other number between 1 and 100. It is kind of an "anti-prime" in a sense, which is useful if you want to construct a numbering system and use as few decimals/fractions as possible.

Nobody wants to have to mess with 7.5 degree angles, if it can be avoided. Not when you're doing your calculations on an abacus.

I teach trigonometry. No, such a number system doesn't imply any knowledge about the rotation of the Earth.

Academics in ancient history didn't work like it does now, with everyone always being on the same page. As a teacher, you of all people should understand how difficult it would be to give everyone a uniform education if you didn't have the technology to mass produce text books. Do all the children in your class have to come up to the front of the room and read from the same scroll?

It's ridiculous to assume anything written on a public wall, or temple, represents the extent of the most educated engineers' knowledge of the day.

What is certain is that whoever devised the 360 degree system was familiar with sexigesimal numbering (or like say 99.99.... % likely, but not quite certain, just so nearly that you'd be taking long odds to bet against it.)

That gives us a fairly narrow pool of contestants for who might have devised it, and when. But the Mesopotamians may not have been the first to use sexigesimal numbering. Just the first we know of. If it was widespread in their day enough to find remnants, then it probably wasn't new.

Besides that, wouldn't you need to show that they knew the Earth was rotating before you could support such a claim?
Their own writings and mythology indicate they knew nothing at all about the shape, or motion, of the Earth.

Harte

This sounds a lot like the flat Earth myth. (IE. the myth that claims people of Columbus' time didn't know the Earth was round.) Which has been widely debunked.

www.washingtonpost.com... 385492

It's real easy to convince ourselves the ancients were stupid. It makes it seem like European Christians invented everything, when the reality is more along the lines of European Christians burning all the books that held knowledge, and then managing to RE-invent what they had destroyed. (Or sometimes get it from one of the few surviving copies, and then claim to invent it.)

You know, you COULD read what the Mesopotamians wrote about the Earth.
But that might be too much trouble.

Harte

The 360 circle is credited to them.

www.timemaps.com...

And there is hard evidence showing they were aware of the Pythagorean theorem. Which makes you wonder where Pythagoras might have gotten it from? Or do you think he re-invented it on his own?



.... Interestingly, Pythagoras and Parmenides are the two earliest known proponents of a spherical Earth.

originally posted by: Harte


You know, you COULD read what the Mesopotamians wrote about the Earth.
But that might be too much trouble.

Harte

If you have a reliable source, you really should just share it.

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
The 360 circle is credited to them.

www.timemaps.com...

And there is hard evidence showing they were aware of the Pythagorean theorem. Which makes you wonder where Pythagoras might have gotten it from? Or do you think he re-invented it on his own?



.... Interestingly, Pythagoras and Parmenides are the two earliest known proponents of a spherical Earth.

originally posted by: Harte


You know, you COULD read what the Mesopotamians wrote about the Earth.
But that might be too much trouble.

Harte

If you have a reliable source, you really should just share it.

Pythagorus didn't invent the theorem - he proved it.
There's evidence that the theorem was used far earlier than the timeline of Sumer.

You want a source for Mesopotamian myths. I want a source indicating what you have claimed, that they thought it was spherical and knew it was rotating and at what rate.

Why do I have to provide more than you in the discussion?

Harte

the AE didnt have or use meters and with egyptian cubits the alleged speed of light it does not match.
so, into the bin.
the EA really did have somethin better to do than this .
cheers.

There has always been a certain percentage of the Earths population that would equate the Earths shadow on the moon with a spherical Earth. Early gravitational models such as those in New Grange Ireland visualized a spiral expansion to explain gravity and the moons orbit. I suspect that the there were savants that could solve the equations in different bases working with more conceptually adept astronomical observers. You need to conceive the equation that yields the first 4 least significant digits then build on that.

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Salander
a reply to: Harte


Not sure of your point, but delusional humans have been with the species as long as it's been here. I don't see what delusional humans have to do with the location of the pyramids or the speed of light.

Self-delusion figures heavily into both claims.

Harte[/

Strange post indeed.

a reply to: Salander

Delusion can usually be attributed to an errant internal fixed belief.
Illusion on the other hand is often an external distortion of the senses.

What is the equation Illusion in the CIA Kryptos puzzle?

www.cia.gov...

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
The 360 circle is credited to them.

www.timemaps.com...

And there is hard evidence showing they were aware of the Pythagorean theorem. Which makes you wonder where Pythagoras might have gotten it from? Or do you think he re-invented it on his own?



.... Interestingly, Pythagoras and Parmenides are the two earliest known proponents of a spherical Earth.

originally posted by: Harte


You know, you COULD read what the Mesopotamians wrote about the Earth.
But that might be too much trouble.

Harte

If you have a reliable source, you really should just share it.

Pythagorus didn't invent the theorem - he proved it.
There's evidence that the theorem was used far earlier than the timeline of Sumer.

You want a source for Mesopotamian myths. I want a source indicating what you have claimed, that they thought it was spherical and knew it was rotating and at what rate.

Why do I have to provide more than you in the discussion?

Harte

I think I have provided plenty of links so far in this discussion. I just don't whine and complain about it, because I think the free exchange of information elevates us all.


It is quite possible they didn't know the Earth rotates (since Pythagoras didn't know, and I suspect he and his peers may have been getting a lot of their knowledge from Mesopotamian writings.) However, even if they thought it was the Sun orbiting the Earth that caused the 24 hour day cycle, the "progression of one arc minute in the Sun's orbit" would still work as a sensible unit of time.


However, I think it would be difficult to get very far in the mastery of trigonometry and not eventually apply it to navigation, and see evidence of a spherical Earth.




But this ignores the more fun possibility: that the location of the Pyramid was chosen by someone earlier than the Egyptians, with more advanced knowledge than them. This is the ATS forum, after all. Conspiracy stuff is welcome discussion here.

Perhaps the Giza pyramid was built at a location that was already considered holy, or culturally significant, and the Egyptians of the time didn't even know what was special about it? (Or built over the top of a previous monument, as I've suggested in other discussions.)

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

(since Pythagoras didn't know, and I suspect he and his peers may have been getting a lot of their knowledge from Mesopotamian writings.)

The Pythagorean inner circle always operated within a cloak of secrecy, we may not "know" what historic sources they deemed relevant.

Resentment built up against the secrecy and exclusiveness of the Pythagoreans and, in 460 BCE, all their meeting places were burned and destroyed, with at least 50 members killed in Croton alone.

www.storyofmathematics.com...

The Cia Kryptos puzzle reflects this secrecy "Kryptos" is Greek for "hidden".
After decrypting the ciphertext in part 3, Howard Caters 1921 exploit of the great pyramid is revealed.

If you were going to crack the old German enigma you would need sufficient ciphertext length to verify the rotor setting.
The Kryptos Part 3 ciphertext reminded me of a fixed enigma rotor wheel tooth offset plus 1.

Some earlier guardian of the celestial gates may have chosen the Great Pyramid location but we would likely have to decrypt a coded message from the time of the Great Pyramid construction.

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
The 360 circle is credited to them.

www.timemaps.com...

And there is hard evidence showing they were aware of the Pythagorean theorem. Which makes you wonder where Pythagoras might have gotten it from? Or do you think he re-invented it on his own?



.... Interestingly, Pythagoras and Parmenides are the two earliest known proponents of a spherical Earth.

originally posted by: Harte


You know, you COULD read what the Mesopotamians wrote about the Earth.
But that might be too much trouble.

Harte

If you have a reliable source, you really should just share it.

Pythagorus didn't invent the theorem - he proved it.
There's evidence that the theorem was used far earlier than the timeline of Sumer.

You want a source for Mesopotamian myths. I want a source indicating what you have claimed, that they thought it was spherical and knew it was rotating and at what rate.

Why do I have to provide more than you in the discussion?

Harte

I think I have provided plenty of links so far in this discussion. I just don't whine and complain about it, because I think the free exchange of information elevates us all.


It is quite possible they didn't know the Earth rotates (since Pythagoras didn't know, and I suspect he and his peers may have been getting a lot of their knowledge from Mesopotamian writings.) However, even if they thought it was the Sun orbiting the Earth that caused the 24 hour day cycle, the "progression of one arc minute in the Sun's orbit" would still work as a sensible unit of time.


However, I think it would be difficult to get very far in the mastery of trigonometry and not eventually apply it to navigation, and see evidence of a spherical Earth.




But this ignores the more fun possibility: that the location of the Pyramid was chosen by someone earlier than the Egyptians, with more advanced knowledge than them. This is the ATS forum, after all. Conspiracy stuff is welcome discussion here.

Perhaps the Giza pyramid was built at a location that was already considered holy, or culturally significant, and the Egyptians of the time didn't even know what was special about it? (Or built over the top of a previous monument, as I've suggested in other discussions.)

There is no evidence whatsoever of any earlier culture at Giza, much less an earlier advanced culture.

Maybe isn't good enough when there's not a whit of a reason to believe it. You could say a lot of maybes about a lot of things, which illustrates the futility of such statements.

The Sumerians, Akkadians, and Babylonians developed writing. Writing that we can read.
There's no reason to speculate on what they thought. They have told us what they thought.

They haven't told us they thought they knew the size of the Earth, much less that it was round and turning. And without some sort of timing device, it would be impossible to track one arc minute of the Sun across the sky in the absence of a sextant, which they obviously didn't have. And even with a sextant, to track time you'd have to have somebody constantly reading the sextant.

Just FYI, the Mesopotamians all thought the Earth was flat, and had no idea at all that it was a planet, like the "wandering stars" they'd identified in the night sky.

Harte

originally posted by: Harte


The Sumerians, Akkadians, and Babylonians developed writing. Writing that we can read.
There's no reason to speculate on what they thought. They have told us what they thought.

We have a very very very very very very very very very very very very .........

..............tiny part of their body of writing in our possession.

The fact the little we do have contains as much trigonometry as it does, suggests they must have written quite a lot on the subject overall.

They haven't told us they thought they knew the size of the Earth, much less that it was round and turning. And without some sort of timing device, it would be impossible to track one arc minute of the Sun across the sky in the absence of a sextant, which they obviously didn't have. And even with a sextant, to track time you'd have to have somebody constantly reading the sextant.

While a sextant is certainly a very practical way to quickly measure angles, it is far from the only way you can do it. Instead of using mirrors to simultaneously look at the horizon, and the object in question, you could simply fix the horizontal arm to the horizon so it isn't free to move, and then look up at the object in the sky through the other scope.

A swinging pendulum is sufficient to keep time. A smart engineer could set one up so that it causes one marble to drop from a bin down into a bucket every time it swings, and then leave it swinging for a day. Then have a servant count up the marbles the next day.


With those two tools, you can determine the length of your own line of Latitude, and from that the circumference of the Equator (or it's approximate circumference, since Earth is unfortunately not a perfect sphere). If you were free to take a field trip (in order to take measurements at two locations on your line of latitude), I imagine it would make for a fun project for students in your class. Or a good story problem.

Just FYI, the Mesopotamians all thought the Earth was flat, and had no idea at all that it was a planet, like the "wandering stars" they'd identified in the night sky.

Harte

You have any kind of link for that?

One that hopefully isn't religious? (Since most religions got their start during the hunter gatherer era for any given group of people, back when they had lots of free time to sit around doing mind altering drugs.)

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

originally posted by: Harte


The Sumerians, Akkadians, and Babylonians developed writing. Writing that we can read.
There's no reason to speculate on what they thought. They have told us what they thought.

We have a very very very very very very very very very very very very .........

..............tiny part of their body of writing in our possession.

The fact the little we do have contains as much trigonometry as it does, suggests they must have written quite a lot on the subject overall.

They haven't told us they thought they knew the size of the Earth, much less that it was round and turning. And without some sort of timing device, it would be impossible to track one arc minute of the Sun across the sky in the absence of a sextant, which they obviously didn't have. And even with a sextant, to track time you'd have to have somebody constantly reading the sextant.

While a sextant is certainly a very practical way to quickly measure angles, it is far from the only way you can do it. Instead of using mirrors to simultaneously look at the horizon, and the object in question, you could simply fix the horizontal arm to the horizon so it isn't free to move, and then look up at the object in the sky through the other scope.

A swinging pendulum is sufficient to keep time. A smart engineer could set one up so that it causes one marble to drop from a bin down into a bucket every time it swings, and then leave it swinging for a day. Then have a servant count up the marbles the next day.


With those two tools, you can determine the length of your own line of Latitude, and from that the circumference of the Equator (or it's approximate circumference, since Earth is unfortunately not a perfect sphere). If you were free to take a field trip (in order to take measurements at two locations on your line of latitude), I imagine it would make for a fun project for students in your class. Or a good story problem.

Just FYI, the Mesopotamians all thought the Earth was flat, and had no idea at all that it was a planet, like the "wandering stars" they'd identified in the night sky.

Harte

You have any kind of link for that?

One that hopefully isn't religious? (Since most religions got their start during the hunter gatherer era for any given group of people, back when they had lots of free time to sit around doing mind altering drugs.)

Religion was their explanation for everything. There is no Babylonian culture without it.
Because their gods were visible in the night and day skies, and in the wind and the very food they grew.

They didn't separate religion from their daily lives, so we shouldn't either.
Their astronomers were astrologers. The basic "trigonometry" you mention was done by priests.
You can find this information by looking. Here's a quick source.

Babylonian Map of the World (c.600 BCE). The Old Testament concept of the earth was very similar: a flat circular earth ringed by a world-ocean, with fabulous islands or mountains beyond at the "ends of the earth".

wiki

Harte

a reply to: Harte

The basic "trigonometry" you mention was done by priests.

According to Botticelli there were red priests and blue priests surveying the Great Pyramid.

I'm assuming the Platonic white horse/Botticelli blue priests tried to do the math, but some of them were delusional?

originally posted by: Cauliflower
a reply to: Harte

The basic "trigonometry" you mention was done by priests.

According to Botticelli there were red priests and blue priests surveying the Great Pyramid.

I'm assuming the Platonic white horse/Botticelli blue priests tried to do the math, but some of them were delusional?

Egypt is not Mesopotamia.

Harte