It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Pyramid of Giza and Speed of Light

page: 5
24
<< 2  3  4    6  7  8 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on May, 8 2018 @ 10:53 PM
link   
I've had a chance to make a shorter version of the above description of the Meters/Seconds thing:


One meter is defined as being exactly one ten millionth the distance from the equator to the North Pole. (That is literally what the commission that devised the Metric system defined it by, and they took a lot of pains to carefully measure it.)

One second is the time it takes the Earth to rotate one quarter of an arc minute. (240 seconds gets it to rotate one degree.)


So, let's look at this in fours.

Four meters is on ten millionth the distance around the Earth.

Four seconds is 1/60 of a degree of rotation. (The Egyptians were very likely using the 360 degree standard, since it comes from all the way back to Mesopotamia.)


So if light travels at 299,792,458 meters per second, what that REALLY means is that it can make it all the way around the Earth 29.9792458 times in the time it takes the Earth to rotate one arc minute (1/60th of a degree.)

And that may be what they were expressing.




posted on May, 9 2018 @ 02:50 AM
link   
a reply to: Vasa Croe

I reckon your right but of what significience is it if any at all?

A bloke by the name of Carl Monk moved greenwich mean time to run through the center of the great pryimid.

From there he found the geomerty of stonehenge and many other acient sites around the world, worked out to be the exact same number as the GPS cpoordinates that those sites, accurate to within 300 metres.

With the pyramids in Egypt he asked a different set of questions, such as:

why are they there
what is their purpose
why are the two lots of three smaller pyramids there and why is each lot at right angles to each other
what purpose do they serve.

From knowing just two facts about each one he was able to do the geometry of them all and from that he drew certain conclusions which unfortunately I cannot recall right now.



From these questions he as able to work out



posted on May, 9 2018 @ 03:56 AM
link   
a reply to: bloodymarvelous

Your math is so far off I dont believe you understand what an arc second is. For example 1 degree is 60 arc minutes. A arcminute is 1/60 th of one degree. And one arc second is 1/3600 a degree.

Now the earth rotates 15 degrees per hour and one degree at the equator is 3600 square miles,this changes as you travel further north do to convergence. See where your mistakes are your not moving decimal places and well some just wrong.For example the Egyptian calender was set up on 360 days a year,off by 5.25 days. Now just this fact alone shows they couldn't figure out speed of light because let's face it there base measuring system was wrong.



posted on May, 9 2018 @ 03:56 AM
link   
a reply to: bloodymarvelous

Your math is so far off I dont believe you understand what an arc second is. For example 1 degree is 60 arc minutes. A arcminute is 1/60 th of one degree. And one arc second is 1/3600 a degree.

Now the earth rotates 15 degrees per hour and one degree at the equator is 3600 square miles,this changes as you travel further north do to convergence. See where your mistakes are your not moving decimal places and well some just wrong.For example the Egyptian calender was set up on 360 days a year,off by 5.25 days. Now just this fact alone shows they couldn't figure out speed of light because let's face it there base measuring system was wrong.



posted on May, 9 2018 @ 04:27 AM
link   

originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: bloodymarvelous

Your math is so far off I dont believe you understand what an arc second is. For example 1 degree is 60 arc minutes. A arcminute is 1/60 th of one degree. And one arc second is 1/3600 a degree.


You're mad because I accidentally said arc second when I clearly meant arc minute? Basically my math was perfect, but off by my failure to keep the naming conventions?






Now the earth rotates 15 degrees per hour


.... which is the same as 1 degree every 4 minutes. Or one arc minute every 4 seconds.

Yes.




and one degree at the equator is 3600 square miles,this changes as you travel further north do to convergence. See where your mistakes are your not moving decimal places and well some just wrong.



The Earth's North/South full circumference (going all the way around) is exactly 40 million meters. So if light travels at 299,792,458 meters per second, then if it were to follow the countours of the Earth (which it wouldn't, but just saying "if"), then it would travel the North/South full circumference of the Earth 29.8782458 times in four seconds.

Which is the same amount of time it takes for the Earth to rotate one arc minute on its axis.



For example the Egyptian calender was set up on 360 days a year,off by 5.25 days. Now just this fact alone shows they couldn't figure out speed of light because let's face it there base measuring system was wrong.


Their calculation of a Year is meaningless to this discussion. The ratios involved here are based on their calculation of a day. Nowhere is their year involved. (Besides we needn't ignore the possibility that it may not be the Dynastic Egyptians who built the structure anyway.)

I'm simply pointing out that arriving at the number 29.8782458 does not require them to be committed to using modern units of measure.

It would require them to know the dimensions of the Earth to a high degree of accuracy, and to have determined the speed of light to a high degree of accuracy. (And not only that, but the speed of light in a vacuum.)



posted on May, 9 2018 @ 05:32 AM
link   

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous


So it doesn't really matter how they measured time, so long as they understood there was some correlation between how long a day is, and how big the Earth is around.

Except for some inconvenient (for you) facts.
Like, we know how the AEs measured time.
We know the AEs divided days into hours.
We know the AEs adjusted how long their hours were because they had 12 hours of sun and 12 hours of dark, every day, all year, regardless of how long the Sun was in the sky (you know, it's less in the winter, right?)


originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
So it is highly likely the Egyptians would have used a 360 degree convention. If not all of them, then surely some of them.

Right, all you have to do is ignore what is known, and you can make up anything and call it "highly likely."
We know the AEs didn't use a sexagesimal system. They actually left records behind, you know.



originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

And once we've got it correlated that far...... there's no reason to get hung up on the units anymore.

Sure. As long as you ignore that the AEs didn't use seconds, didn't use the sexagesimal system, didn't use meters, and the measuring units they DID use weren't correlated to the distance from the Equator to the North Pole.

Again, if you don't mind your speculations not adhering to the known facts, you can make any claim you want.

Of course, you also have to not mind making a fool of yourself in the process.

Harte









posted on May, 9 2018 @ 05:41 AM
link   

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
The Earth's North/South full circumference (going all the way around) is exactly 40 million meters.

No, it's not "exactly" 40 million meters. It's 39,931 meters.


originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
Their calculation of a Year is meaningless to this discussion. The ratios involved here are based on their calculation of a day. Nowhere is their year involved.

You make this claim without bothering to check how they calculated their days, as I pointed out above.


originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
(Besides we needn't ignore the possibility that it may not be the Dynastic Egyptians who built the structure anyway.)

A convenient back door exit from the trap you set for yourself.


originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
I'm simply pointing out that arriving at the number 29.8782458 does not require them to be committed to using modern units of measure.

In fact, it does. You've just made that argument yourself with your claim that they used 360 degrees, meters, and seconds, didn't you.

Harte
edit on 5/9/2018 by Harte because: of the wonderful things he does!



posted on May, 9 2018 @ 02:16 PM
link   

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
The Earth's North/South full circumference (going all the way around) is exactly 40 million meters.

No, it's not "exactly" 40 million meters. It's 39,931 meters.


You're right. (Although I think you mean 39,931 KILO - meters) So it depends on whether they took an average I guess?

The North South (Meridianal) circumference is 69 kilometers meters less than a perfect 40,000 and the Equatorial radius is 70 kilometers over at 40,070 kilometers.

www.space.com...


(And just to be clear: 40,000 kilometers is 40 million meters.)


However, I suspect the person who presented the GPS as being exactly 29.9792458 degrees probably picked their favorite part of the structure to get that value.

Wiki has the latitude as being 29° 58′ 45.03" , with a decimal translation of 29.979175

29.9792458 when translated to minutes/seconds comes to 29° 58' 45.28"


But looking at the pyramid in Google Earth, its base spans all the way from 29° 58' 41" to 29° 58' 48"


If they had the value to within those limitations, that is still impressive enough for me to be excited about it.





originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
Their calculation of a Year is meaningless to this discussion. The ratios involved here are based on their calculation of a day. Nowhere is their year involved.

You make this claim without bothering to check how they calculated their days, as I pointed out above.


There are several possibilities.

- Firstly, I'm leaving open the possibility the Egyptians didn't build it.

- Secondly there is also the chance that the very most educated Egyptians didn't do things the same way your common rank and file Egyptians did them.

Sort of like how educated American scientists use the Metric system, but ordinary Americans prefer to use miles/feet/inches.... etc

We're talking about a very traditional place.


- And Third: It's not uncommon to import scientists/engineers from a foreign land when undertaking a huge project.

Think about the USA hiring Wernher Von Braun to head the Moon project, for example.


If there is one thing that is usually true about real history, as opposed to fantasy history: it's rarely simple. It's usually messy. Not everything that happens advances the plot.





originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
(Besides we needn't ignore the possibility that it may not be the Dynastic Egyptians who built the structure anyway.)

A convenient back door exit from the trap you set for yourself.


It's kind of what the whole thread is suggesting, is it not?

And it's not much of a trap. I really doubt the Egyptians knew the exact Meridianal Circumference of the Earth, or the value of the speed of light in a vacuum (unless they used an astronomical approach to determine it.) It goes about 90 km/s slower in air.







originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
I'm simply pointing out that arriving at the number 29.8782458 does not require them to be committed to using modern units of measure.

In fact, it does. You've just made that argument yourself with your claim that they used 360 degrees, meters, and seconds, didn't you.

Harte


The need for meters is exactly what I have refuted.

The need for 360 degree notation remains, however. Because we are left with a ratio of 2600 or 360 * 60.

It's still a pretty noteworthy correlation even if you insist the engineers could not possibly have used 360 notation, despite the fact it was in use elsewhere at the time.

Can you imagine the humiliation for the Pharaoh if his scientists had put themselves in communication with the "inferior" scientists of Mesopotamia (because everyone knows scientists don't like to work with other scientists across national boundaries.
)



posted on May, 9 2018 @ 04:50 PM
link   

originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: bloodymarvelous
.For example the Egyptian calender was set up on 360 days a year,off by 5.25 days. Now just this fact alone shows they couldn't figure out speed of light because let's face it there base measuring system was wrong.


Not quite correct about the Egyptian year... they did have a 360 day calendar but they added to it the 5 "epigomenal days", effectively making it 365 days. It crept out of order and needed reforming but was one of the more accurate ones in the ancient world.



posted on May, 9 2018 @ 04:58 PM
link   

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: bloodymarvelous
.For example the Egyptian calender was set up on 360 days a year,off by 5.25 days. Now just this fact alone shows they couldn't figure out speed of light because let's face it there base measuring system was wrong.


Not quite correct about the Egyptian year... they did have a 360 day calendar but they added to it the 5 "epigomenal days", effectively making it 365 days. It crept out of order and needed reforming but was one of the more accurate ones in the ancient world.

IIRC, a better more modern calendar was eventually forced on them by the Romans.

Harte



posted on May, 9 2018 @ 05:22 PM
link   
a reply to: bloodymarvelous


One meter is defined as being exactly one ten millionth the distance from the equator to the North Pole. (That is literally what the commission that devised the Metric system defined it by, and they took a lot of pains to carefully measure it.)
But they got it wrong.

Thus, the meter was intended to equal 10-7 or one ten-millionth of the length of the meridian through Paris from pole to the equator. However, the first prototype was short by 0.2 millimeters because researchers miscalculated the flattening of the earth due to its rotation. Still this length became the standard.
physics.nist.gov...




Four seconds is 1/60 of a degree of rotation.
Why four? But no it isn't. Four seconds is 0.0011º.

edit on 5/9/2018 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 9 2018 @ 08:11 PM
link   
Bent pyramid was built later, which might be coincidentally related.
An interesting mystery.



posted on May, 9 2018 @ 08:37 PM
link   

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: bloodymarvelous




Thus, the meter was intended to equal 10-7 or one ten-millionth of the length of the meridian through Paris from pole to the equator. However, the first prototype was short by 0.2 millimeters because researchers miscalculated the flattening of the earth due to its rotation. Still this length became the standard.
physics.nist.gov...




Four seconds is 1/60 of a degree of rotation.
Why four? But no it isn't. Four seconds is 0.0011º.


I mean four seconds of time. Sorry.

I can see how that would convolute what I was trying to say. I forgot that it is both a unit of measurement of location and a unit of time.

In four seconds of time, the Earth rotates one arc minute on its axis.




One meter is defined as being exactly one ten millionth the distance from the equator to the North Pole. (That is literally what the commission that devised the Metric system defined it by, and they took a lot of pains to carefully measure it.)
But they got it wrong.


I've been waiting for someone to point out the more obvious problem: that depending on what part of the base of the pyramid you choose you can get a value anywhere from 29.97806, up to 29.98008.

The pyramid is so large that its base actually spans about 8 arc seconds (the unit of location measurement).
edit on 9-5-2018 by bloodymarvelous because: fix quotes

edit on 9-5-2018 by bloodymarvelous because: fix quotes more



posted on May, 9 2018 @ 08:54 PM
link   
a reply to: bloodymarvelous



In four seconds of time, the Earth rotates one arc minute on its axis.

Please check my math:

86,400 sec/day = 360º/86,400 = 0.0417º/sec
Never mind, I checked it myself.
so, strike the rest

0.0417º/sec * 4 sec = 0.1668º

0.1668º = 10.008'


edit on 5/9/2018 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 9 2018 @ 09:36 PM
link   

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: bloodymarvelous



In four seconds of time, the Earth rotates one arc minute on its axis.

Please check my math:

86,400 sec/day = 360º/86,400 = 0.0417º/sec
Never mind, I checked it myself.
so, strike the rest

0.0417º/sec * 4 sec = 0.1668º

0.1668º = 10.008'




Ok, why don't you check my math now then?

360 * 60 * 4 = 86400

360 is the number of degrees in a circle.

60 is the number of arc minutes in a degree.

4 is the number of seconds I was talking about.



posted on May, 9 2018 @ 09:37 PM
link   
(And by seconds, I mean the unit of time.)



posted on May, 9 2018 @ 09:57 PM
link   
a reply to: bloodymarvelous

I found my error. As pointed out before you replied.
edit on 5/9/2018 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2018 @ 07:48 AM
link   

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

One meter is defined as being exactly one ten millionth the distance from the equator to the North Pole.

Which is completely arbitrary. Why not one 20 millionth or one 5 millionth?

Aside from all the other huge problems, why would the Egyptians possibly come up with exactly the same measure?



So, let's look at this in fours.

What's special about fours?



Four seconds is 1/60 of a degree of rotation.

So?



posted on May, 10 2018 @ 02:17 PM
link   

originally posted by: FatherLukeDuke

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

One meter is defined as being exactly one ten millionth the distance from the equator to the North Pole.

Which is completely arbitrary. Why not one 20 millionth or one 5 millionth?

Aside from all the other huge problems, why would the Egyptians possibly come up with exactly the same measure?


I thank you for asking this question, because it goes to exactly what I've been trying to explain.

The speed of light being 299792458 meter/second is not an amount. It is a ratio. Saying light goes that many units of our distance in one unit of our time WOULD be a culture specific argument IF those units were not universal.







So, let's look at this in fours.

What's special about fours?



Four seconds is 1/60 of a degree of rotation.

So?


There is evidence that some cultures of the time, perhaps not the Egyptians, but at least some of the ones closer to Sumeria/Babylon areas did use the same degree notation we use today.

One arc minute of the Earth's rotation to them would then be identical to one arc minute of the Earth's rotation to us.

Meaning our units have found common agreement on the time measure, if we choose the Earth's rotation as the basis of measuring time.

If a beam of light travels at a speed that would allow it to race around the Earth 29.9792458 times in that amount of time, then there is no basis to wonder why they would have arrived at the same number as we did. (Remembering that the pyramid's base actually spans from 29.97806, up to 29.98008 degrees North).





I'm just pointing out that modern ideas are not necessary to get that number. It doesn't prove that the placement was on purpose. It could still be a coincidence.

I just get annoyed when people talk about modern education being culturally constructed, when the topic is related to the hard sciences. The hard sciences are not culturally constructed. They are universal. Even alien cultures from other worlds would agree about most of it, if we ever encounter them.



posted on May, 10 2018 @ 05:59 PM
link   
What I'm getting at is: The idea of Egyptians knowing the circumference of the Earth, or even calculating the speed of light is no more impossible than the idea of Egyptians moving a 2 ton block of stone. You just have to look past your own ethnocentricity.


Another way to look at this is to ask yourself: how would you measure time if you didn't have clocks?

Suppose you want a really accurate measurement, and an hour glass just won't do (too much uncertainty in the rate of movement of the sand.)


I think you'd go out on a sunny day and put two objects out that cast predictable shadows. Use a calendar to make sure of what time of year it is, so you can predict how the sun will be moving.


Suppose you are a great Egyptian philosopher. The question of how fast light moves was asked many times in the early middle ages, but usually the investigation ended when it became apparent that normal ways of measuring speed would not work.

But this is Egypt, where people do things that are friggin' amazing. So you devise some test, such as a rotating array of very small mirrors, and now you want to time it. How do you do it?

You'd probably use the Earth's rotation as the timer. And you'd probably use a physical distance somewhere in your calculation.


And come to think of it.... the easiest way to calculate the circumference of the Earth is to measure how long it takes the sun's facing (from a specifically chosen angle) to migrate from one physical location to another one a certain distance away. Then divide the amount of time in a day by the time it took for the Sun to move that distance, and multiply the result by the distance, and you have calculated the circumference of the Earth at your latitude.

The result would only be meaningful if you do this at the Equator, but a sufficiently wealthy Egyptian scholar could probably make the trip (perhaps tagging along on a military expedition into lower Africa, or maybe just a trade caravan.)



new topics

top topics



 
24
<< 2  3  4    6  7  8 >>

log in

join