Almost 70% of 8th Grader are Stupid...

Back when I was in school, owning a calculator would get you sent to the principals office.


We had to actually show our work.


It's how we're teaching our son.


Please don't call the authorities.

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

They may not be valued, but they're still necessary for access to the workforce, even the skilled trade jobs require at least a high school diploma.

a reply to: DBCowboy

We were allowed a graphing calculator for certain higher level math and science classes, but the teachers were very clear on when we were allowed to use it. Basically, you didn't access those classes unless you were assumed to have a solid mastery of the underlying computation.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
Many parents didn't understand the homework that their children brought home, but they made sure that they completed their assignments and would sit down with the teachers and ask for help if it looked like their child was not doing as well as they thought they should.

We just tried that with common core, the parents raised hell because they were too stupid to know how to do their kids assignments and were unwilling to learn.

a reply to: MteWamp

And that's a good thing. At least THOSE kids will get a proper education.

I looked into charter schools for my kids.

And I found out a few things.

First off they don't offer gifted programs.

And most of the teachers are not teachers with a degree. From what I saw they only had a certificate allowing them to teach.

Compared to my kids public school now where the teachers finished their schooling.

It's possible that this is different in other places. However I doubt it.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: DBCowboy

We were allowed a graphing calculator for certain higher level math and science classes, but the teachers were very clear on when we were allowed to use it. Basically, you didn't access those classes unless you were assumed to have a solid mastery of the underlying computation.

I was allowed a graphing calculator for everything in grade 9 and above. Used to cheat in any class I could use it by programming in notes.

a reply to: grey580

Let me see ... which one might be more qualified to teach my son about literature ... the person who has a degree in English Lit or the one who has a degree in Education which is mainly about the practice and principles behind such things as classroom management?

a reply to: Aazadan

And which of us do you think probably obtained a better overall education?

The one who actually had to earn it or the one who used his technology to cheat whenever he could?

The leftists get to own this as they've been in charge of education for decades. Any blame to be passed around starts and ends there.

originally posted by: schuyler
To say these students are stupid betrays your own stupidity. They are just as intelligent as any group of students anywhere. The education system and society has failed them. They may be ignorant--but not stupid. Educate yourself and learn the difference or you look stupid yourself.

Who runs education in America? It's been a leftist stronghold for decades. The buck stops there.

originally posted by: JohnRiggs
Social Media is the reason for this. They would rather check their twitter, facebook or whatever, than do homework or study.

Wrong. The leftists have controlled education for years. This is their baby and their fault. No one else's.

originally posted by: scraedtosleep
a reply to: Nickn3

and the parents have to be involved in their children's lives and education

Hard to do when both parents have to work just to pay the bills.

What we need is a system that allows more free time for parents to spend with their children.
8 hour work days is as much to blame for this as anything else.

If 2 parents can't figure out how to be involved in their kids education working 8 hours a day that's just laziness and apathy.

It's a complete cop out.

My mom worked 8 hours a day and my dad worked 12 hours a day. They had no problem being involved in the education of my brothers and I. I would imagine it was hard for them but they made it happen. Anyone that claims they can't because of their jobs is probably lazy and wouldn't care anyway.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Aazadan

And which of us do you think probably obtained a better overall education?

The one who actually had to earn it or the one who used his technology to cheat whenever he could?

I'm not sure. I should start off by saying that I do think cheating is wrong, but it sure is an awful lot of fun. Something in life that utterly fascinates me is taking systems, deconstructing them, and manipulating them for the exact result you want. It's part of why I enjoy computer programming so much, I get to build a system that behaves exactly how I want it to, but I do the same thing in other areas of life.

For example, getting an A in a college class is trivial, so one thing I like doing is observing how well everyone else is doing alongside how well the professor is teaching, and leveraging that knowledge to do the minimal amount of work that still passes the class post curve to the exact point. In fact, I had an interesting conversation with a professor of mine last year about this. I had him for two classes, one in Fall 2016, and one in Spring 2017. We were talking about grades and he remarked how lucky I was that I passed both of his classes with the exact point total to be borderline. It wasn't until that conversation that he realized, I'm not just a really bad student, but that I did it intentionally just to see if I could.

In other examples, and I should mention that I in no way condone this, I do recognize that it's wrong, I like to see what I can get away with and will do things like goto Starbucks, order a drink, tell them I spilled it on the way to my car, and go in and ask them to remake it for free. Just to get a free drink. It's all a game to see what the maximum one can get away with is. I do the same thing in my weekly games of Magic, if I can deduce that my opponent isn't paying attention (and I care about winning) I'll tap or untap something extra, or cheat on card costs, or draw an extra card, just to see if I can get away with it. It's not moral or right, and I don't even have a good reason to do it... I just like to see if I can.

Graphing calculators are like that. Sure, it's important to know how to perform all of their functions by hand, but what's even better is to know how the tool works, and how to maximize it's usage. If you can do that, you can automatically perform the basics of doing an operation by hand because you have to program it in properly and be sure it works correctly, and understand step by step what the machine is doing. Ideally you even program it into showing the work step by step so that you can input the problem, solve it, and just copy the information down.

Then again, my whole philosphy is that mastery of anything really complicated is nothing more than being really good at the basics.

So back to your question. Who got the better education? The person who does something by hand over and over until it's memorized, or the person who takes the concept and applies it to a wide variety of situations? While one isn't always as talented with an applied education it does produce better tangible results, and I think that's worth a lot.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: grey580

Let me see ... which one might be more qualified to teach my son about literature ... the person who has a degree in English Lit or the one who has a degree in Education which is mainly about the practice and principles behind such things as classroom management?

A teacher who has studied English Literature would be great, most teachers are supposed to have a Bachelors in a field, plus some post graduate classes, plus a Masters in Education. Schools have compromised on that a bit though because the jobs aren't attractive enough to actually get qualified applicants. In some states, teachers make as little as $9 an hour.

Here's one problem though. Even if we have qualified teachers in the classrooms, and parents take an interest in their kids lives, that still doesn't guarantee that the proper material gets taught. Between going overboard on standardized testing and local school boards that set ridiculous curriculums that are more about ideology than knowledge, the schools are being hit from every angle.

Yet, the PISA test suggests we're actually doing quite well in educating kids and that's the best metric that's in use.

a reply to: ketsuko

I didn't say degree. I said certificate.

The absolute minimum required to teach a class.

Most of the charter school teachers were in the process of attaining a degree.

Maybe I can shed some perspective on this since I've been on the front line teaching 9-12th grade high school students in an inner-city public school.

- First of all, many of our current problems we have in public schools can be blamed squarely on our state and federal representatives.

We have political representatives and people on school boards who have absolutely no experience teaching making decisions for public schools. Many of them don't even take the time to observe the problems teachers face every day in the classroom!

Public schools continue to be greatly underfunded and the U.S. has failed to recognize that education should be a major priority. An educated worker is the cornerstone of a strong economy, innovation and strength of a nation.
The push for charter schools is draining public education funding away from public schools. The facilities of many inner-city public schools are in desperate need of repairs. It certainly doesn't create an environment conducive to learning!

-Public school student's today have NO real consequences for disruptive or poor behavior!

The day corporal punishment was removed from public schools is the day school's across this nation lost control of their schools. Teacher's and administrator's hands are tied. Students are not getting the necessary discipline at home and schools have nothing substantial to help keep them in-line. Today's kids simply have no fear of consequences.

Inner-city schools enroll many more learning support, gang related, and low income students than suburban and private schools. Of course they will reflect the community they serve. However, private schools can expel disruptive and behavior problem students. Guess who has to accept them? Public Schools! It's why public schools need to create real consequences for these students. Creating a boot camp for repeat offenders, removing cell phones from a student, drivers license suspensions, cleaning school bathrooms... some kind of negative consequence has to be created to take back our schools.

Back in my day kids feared being paddled if they disrupted class or talked back to a teacher. We feared if our parents received a call from the school about our poor behavior! The day I would have told a teacher to F-off, my @ss would have been thrown up against a locker! I would have been suspended and got it worse when I got home! Ask any teacher and I'm sure they can give you numerous stories of how rude, mean, disrespectful and apathetic students are today!

-Teachers are not treated as professionals like they are in private businesses. District administrators seldom ask for teacher's input. Teachers are extremely underpaid considering the important impact they have on society and the economy. The daily stress in the classroom is ridiculous. Important decisions are made by State Representatives and School Boards composed of people who have no background in education yet are responsible for making policies and changes to how learning material and procedures are presented in a classroom. Instead of letting teachers teach, they spend more time creating more paper bureaucracy and requirements for teachers. They come into classrooms and want to tell teachers how to teach when they know nothing about the subject matter or why the learning material is presented in a particular manner.

-Social promotion.

Today students are pushed to the next grade level even if they don't pass their current grade level. (It's one of the reasons why I had to take 2 months out of my curriculum to review 4th grade math to my 9th graders).

-New ways of teaching are not always better. If it's not broken, don't fix it.

Granted with today's technology, teachers can motivate and present material in a fun way rather than how it was presented years ago. A perfect example of how an old way of teaching was taken away from teachers in my school... History teachers were no longer allowed to show historical movies to their students! Really? What better way to teach about historical people and events to young people than to show them a movie and then talk and write about it? Would a student rather hear a teacher lecture about the event rather than seeing it played out?

-The use of high school graduation statistics to fund schools.

District administrators are lowering the bar so graduation rates improve. They do this so they don't lose state funding. This alone has caused schools to cater to apathetic and unmotivated students. Instead of raising the bar and forcing students to learn the appropriate material at the required level, teachers are expected to dumb down the material! Connecting school funding with graduation rates is doing more harm than good. They're setting these kids up for failure and not preparing them for the real world.

-Respect, the importance of education, the sanctity of life, morality, manners, consideration should all be taught during the earlier grades of elementary school. Schools can't expect some of these young children are receiving the direction they need in life to keep them out of trouble and help them succeed in life. Schools and parents would both benefit if basic morality was mannerisms were practiced in school at an early grade level.

-High schools should all incorporate vocational labs.

These labs help students find their career interests and help them apply what they learn in their academic classes. Pursuing a college degree should no longer be pushed as the only appropriate step after graduation. Trade schools and hands-on-experience have proven to be more important to employers in technical professions rather than university related degrees. What better way to learn then by doing?

Public schools are in trouble. Give me a school whose students who are motivated to learn and of course the school will outshine others. When it comes to higher learning the saying... "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink" explains it all. Until the U.S. takes it's education system seriously, and parents start disciplining their children to take responsibility for their behavior and education, public education system in this country will eventually collapse. Charter schools won't be the answer because they will be inheriting the same problems public schools have been facing for years.

Students who are used to multiple choice tests lack the skills and the confidence to formulate their own complex opinions and interpretations.

Wasn't there a thread recently about wages?

Where a janitor can rake in 270k a year, but a teacher about 55k? What about that?!

a reply to: AScrubWhoDied

"This isn't hate speech at all ATS mods.


Lord jesus, and its probably infecting others. "

I'm sorry if you see this as hate speech. It is not intended as such. I felt posters in this thread were being unrealistic comparing their suburban education to the environment presented in the OP. Things like It's OK if the kids are illiterate. They won't need to dig ditches because they will invent robots to do it for them. Just because I acknowledge someone can't read a clock does not mean I hate then.

I used to work in some of these places. I would see people getting hit in the head with bricks, gangs of little kids attacking people with sticks. This is where much of our prison population comes from. It's maybe a different type of society than you are accustomed to. I was attempting a practical suggestion. Maybe I failed but it was not intended in a hateful way.

originally posted by: ManFromEurope
Wasn't there a thread recently about wages?

Where a janitor can rake in 270k a year, but a teacher about 55k? What about that?!

Reflects the value of a trades education. We should encourage more apprenticeships as opposed to college education.