Police Threaten Arrest If Citizens Speak Out Against the State-Sanctioned Death of Baby Alfie Evans

a reply to: notsure1

Typical political social scumbags it's how they operate, if it were their relatives they'd do whatever they could. I hope these parents sue as many of them as they possibly can.

a reply to: weemadmental

Don't state that as fact, none of the doctors said the travel would kill him, just that it might have.
In any case, how is dying in an air ambulance any worse than dying in an ICU bed? A child who was going to die anyway.
Regardless, don't state things as fact when even doctors didn't. It's disingenuous.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy


I personally do think thats it unethical of the Italian doctors to get evolved when they agreed with the medical opinion of the British medical team, they only got involved because of the popes intervention, I didn't realise he was also medically trained. Alfie was dying, he wasn't starved to death, his disease had done it's worse, the only thing left for Alfie was palliative care.
What is palliative care?

a reply to: Kurokage

The parents requested it and the Italian doctors offered continuing care based on their ethical and medical opinions. I don't believe the Italian doctors acted unethically, I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

That's why I said "less than a week".

It would be easier if we had a doctor in this discussion.

Is there doctor in the house?

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree.

I think we will have to mate, because I see it as the Italian doctors only getting involved because the pope intervened, which was for religious beliefs and not medical.

originally posted by: ArMaP
a reply to: Bicent

No, that's exactly the point, we are talking about what was best for the patient, not what was best for someone else.

I don't know too many patients whose death was the best thing for them do you?

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
In any case, how is dying in an air ambulance any worse than dying in an ICU bed?

According to what I read in the ruling, they thought it was possible for him to die in the air ambulance because of constant seizures, provoked by the external stimulus from being transported in the air ambulance for several hours.

I think dying on an ICU bed would be more likely to be less stressful, if he was able to feel any thing.

originally posted by: Kurokage
a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree.

I think we will have to mate, because I see it as the Italian doctors only getting involved because the pope intervened, which was for religious beliefs and not medical.

That's fair enough mate, different perspectives is all. I just hope I never find myself in such a tragic position of seeing my child dying, and I feel for the medical team who cared for him, I bet it has taken its toll on them as well.

originally posted by: ArMaP
I think dying on an ICU bed would be more likely to be less stressful, if he was able to feel any thing.

I think that's the key point, lots of if's in this tragic story, but we'll never know so thoughts for everyone involved, and I hope the parents can move on in time.

originally posted by: Justoneman
I don't know too many patients whose death was the best thing for them do you?

I do.

On January February last year, my boss (and friend) died of an undiagnosed cancer that had spread everywhere. In his lasts days he was in constant pain (that was the first sign he got that something was wrong with him, as he started having pain in some bones at the end of November) and morphine wasn't helping him.

To me, it would be better to let him die (or even accelerate his death) to stop the suffering.

I hope they kill me (if I'm not able to do it myself) if I am in the same position.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Konduit
a reply to: Kurokage

So now the UK government can shut down all opposing views and opinions about the subject, while threatening legal force, because of a few random social media posts? How do we even know those people are real?

This is the world we're living in now, and it's like something you would read in a George Orwell novel.

No it can't. Stop making stuff up.

Get your hands off your ears and open your eyes. You are now brainwashed to hate anything the Gov tells you to hate aren't you? YES you are! Take your hands off your ears and open your eyes. Look and listen to what is happening. You have reasoned it ok to allow the starving of that child to death who might get healed in a few months with the tech coming along. Stem cell research is making huge strides. Crazy to not allow another hospital to take over the care. ASININE actually.

originally posted by: Justoneman

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Konduit
a reply to: Kurokage

So now the UK government can shut down all opposing views and opinions about the subject, while threatening legal force, because of a few random social media posts? How do we even know those people are real?

This is the world we're living in now, and it's like something you would read in a George Orwell novel.

No it can't. Stop making stuff up.

Get your hands off your ears and open your eyes. You are now brainwashed to hate anything the Gov tells you to hate aren't you? YES you are! Take your hands off your ears and open your eyes. Look and listen to what is happening. You have reasoned it ok to allow the starving of that child to death who might get healed in a few months with the tech coming along. Stem cell research is making huge strides. Crazy to not allow another hospital to take over the care. ASININE actually.

Yes because you clearly know more about the boys condition than the doctors who examined and cared for him for 18 Months.

a reply to: Justoneman

THERE IS NO TREATMENT. THERE IS NOTHING THAT COULD HAVE BEEN DONE FOR THIS CHILD! - it has been through the court, supreme court and the European Court of Law, numerous experts and doctors alike, the Itailians only stuck their oar in when the Pope got involved. The childs brain had effectively turned to water, no stem cell research could rebuild and entire brain.

I'm sure someone has already pointed it out...when the government doesn't allow to have guns as a society, they don't care about your rights, your welfare or your beliefs. The 2nd amendment is way to tell your government to F##k off when another country wants to try to save the life of your child but your government says let him die.
Would they have prolonged the child's life? Who knows, but put yourself in the shoes of those patents.

originally posted by: weemadmental
Itailians only stuck their oar in when the Pope got involved.

The parents asked the Pope.
Presumably the Pope then had a word with the Italian government which then awarded the child citizenship so he could be cared for under their health service as any other Italian citizen.
Italian doctors then made their own ethical and medical decisions to continue care.

originally posted by: Hr2burn
I'm sure someone has already pointed it out...when the government doesn't allow to have guns as a society, they don't care about your rights, your welfare or your beliefs. The 2nd amendment is way to tell your government to F##k off when another country wants to try to save the life of your child but your government says let him die.
Would they have prolonged the child's life? Who knows, but put yourself in the shoes of those patents.

This coming from a resident of the country whose government passed the PATRIOT Act and project PRISIM.....

Tell me again about how your second amendment has helped out with that.

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy

The parents asked the Pope.
Presumably the Pope then had a word with the Italian government which then awarded the child citizenship so he could be cared for under their health service as any other Italian citizen.
Italian doctors then made their own ethical and medical decisions to continue care.

Why would the Pope need to have a word with the Italian government he has

own country ..... the Vatican

Vatican City is the smallest country in the world. Encircled by a 2-mile border with Italy, Vatican City is an independent city-state that covers just over 100 acres, making it one-eighth the size of New York's Central Park. Vatican City is governed as an absolute monarchy with the pope at its head.

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
Presumably the Pope then had a word with the Italian government which then awarded the child citizenship so he could be cared for under their health service as any other Italian citizen.

There's no need for that, any citizen of the EU (the UK is still part of the EU) can be treated in any EU country as if they were on their own. My father needed to go to the hospital when he was on a short trip with my elder sister in Maiorca, and he paid nothing for it, as being Portuguese the Portuguese Social Security would pay for it. We only needed to present the hospital's invoice (we got it a few days later) to the Social Security.

a reply to: weemadmental

Agreed, moving Alfie to the Vatican was an idiotic cause for certain types of conservatives to get involved in, to push their agenda, whether that agenda be right or wrong. And it's sad to see the Pope has also been reduced to media spectacles like this to score some sympathy points for his religion, although I guess there's probably a long tradition behind that.

Ideally NHS still should have let it happen though, would have cost them a lot of trouble. I get that they can't always let parents and relatives dictate how they care for the patients, but if it costs nothing and the patient was going to die anyway, then why not. Even if it is immoral to risk prolonging his suffering.