Police Threaten Arrest If Citizens Speak Out Against the State-Sanctioned Death of Baby Alfie Evans

originally posted by: testingtesting
a reply to: bastion

Just found out some Texas hospitals have gone against parents wishes and gone to court to turn off life support.
Which they did on two occasions that I can find.

www.google.co.uk...

www.houstonpress.com...
So there are places in the states where the same happens.

So nowt about this? Gone quiet in here hasn't it?.

a reply to: testingtesting

Like hearing yourself talk huh, also you might want to take a breath since it's still way for yanks, and I'm traveling atm.
≠≠=======

It's funny in a sad way, people keep saying the kid was suffering, if he's brain dead where exactly were those nerve impulses read?

originally posted by: Irishhaf

It's funny in a sad way, people keep saying the kid was suffering, if he's brain dead where exactly were those nerve impulses read?

And there in lies the tragedy......

For who's benefit was he actually being kept in limbo for?

Certainly NOT HIS OWN......

originally posted by: Painterz
There is no cure for brain death.

I see you read the Mudpit too.

This is nothing new. The gov't has interfered with parental rights for year, yes here too. Ask any JW about it.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
It's funny in a sad way, people keep saying the kid was suffering, if he's brain dead where exactly were those nerve impulses read?

What the doctors said was they didn't know if he was suffering or not, as they had no way of knowing.

originally posted by: testingtesting
a reply to: bastion

Just found out some Texas hospitals have gone against parents wishes and gone to court to turn off life support.
Which they did on two occasions that I can find.

www.google.co.uk...

www.houstonpress.com...
So there are places in the states where the same happens.

Thank you for posting this great article!

Several things worth mentioning

1. If the USA courts say that a family can not take their family elsewhere to get care in their own, that is just as disgusting. I am not bashing the U.K. I am bashing that policy I don’t care where it is at

2. No where in either article does it say the USA court said that the family couldn’t take their children elsewhere for medical treatment

In fact the second article specifically mentions that the family was allowed to transfer their son

Therefore this is not the same

I am not arguing taking off life support is bad, merely that forcing the family to not allow other doctors to give life support is bad

3. Most damning of all for you is that in your first article, it cites a case in the USA where a court ordered a person taken off support because they had no chance at living, a family member went in with a gun(which I am against) to stop it and was jailed

And guess what happened

That person recovered

Yep, the doctors and courts that said there was no chance were wrong. So had they done what the U.K. court did and not only removed life support but did not allow any other doctor to give it, they would have directly caused the death of this person

4. The article specifically says that Alfie was not in pain, as the court decision in point 61 says is most likely the case

The article says that the courts and hospitals lie and say it’s about pain when usually it’s about saving money

So all of those stars you got, and your claim it got quiet when you posted that

I question rather you actually read them, because they are devestating for your position

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: Grambler

I think you have to look at it as the best they could do versus the worst.
In this case, keeping his body alive through whatever means seems worse than letting him go.
Which is worse than euthanasia.
That said though, how much did his parents prolong his suffering by performing CPR?

It doesn’t matter.

You have already conceded that the court knowing did not give the best option to Alfie

The family was making what they thought was the best decision for him, even if they were wrong

This is why letting it up to the court is terrible, they willing did not make the best decision in their minds for Alfie

That is unconscionable

originally posted by: ArMaP

originally posted by: Grambler
That is what is disgusting about this case. Not that the court said the state would no longer provide treatment, but that it forced other doctors to not provide it

First of all, nobody was providing treatment, as there is no known treatment for the disease that was killing Alfie. Second, I have yet to see real evidence that the court forbid the parents from getting the child to a different hospital. If you have any I would like to see it.

I am on phone so it’s hard to link articles

On your first point, just because their is no cure doesn’t mean treatment wasn’t being offered

Alfie was treated by the U.K. hospital for months. Are you saying this isn’t the cas because there is no cure?

On your second point, read the judgement or any article on this

Italy offered to give the child care, even sending an air ambulance, but the U.K. court said no

In fact the court would not let the parents take the child home because they were worried they would try to take him to Italy for treatment

Absolutely disgusting

a reply to: Grambler

Agreed.

Family are the advocates. Without them, patients have little chance in this world.

My wife is my advocate, and she's a bulldog. Once when i was in the hospital they were going to move me ot a semiprivate room. Until she got ahold of them. She had a valid medical arguement that would have been harder to argue against than to just find another solution (which they did).

One time my brother in law was bleeding to death in the ER when my wife walked in. Little 4'11" mexican girl turned right around, found the first doctor she saw, grabbed him by the tie, and said, "You're coming with me" and made him address the issue.

I am 100% behind patient advocacy. Passionately. I've seen what a bulldog can do for someone, and their survival. And only family loves enough to fight like that.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Good on your wife!

I feel nd it funny that so many people could star an article that shows the USA system does allow families to go elsewhere for care, that hospitals mainly cut off care for money reasons, and most damning of all shows an examples when the doctors and courts said a patient had no chance to live and were wrong

And still so many people think that article proves the courts did right in this situation

I couldn’t have posted a better article for why this decision on alfie was terrible if I tried!

But notice it’s gone quiet in here...

originally posted by: Grambler
On your first point, just because their is no cure doesn’t mean treatment wasn’t being offered

Alfie was treated by the U.K. hospital for months. Are you saying this isn’t the cas because there is no cure?

I was using the word treatment as meaning curative meaning, what the hospital was doing in the latter months was keeping him alive, and I don't think of that as treatment. Maybe I am been using the wrong word.

On your second point, read the judgement or any article on this

Italy offered to give the child care, even sending an air ambulance, but the U.K. court said no

I read one ruling, the only one I could find, and there was nothing against moving the child to another hospital.

It would be great if you could post a link to that ruling when you can.

a reply to: ArMaP

Sorry I am on the phone

I guess I would suggest you use google

Near every article I read, and the official judgement says this

a reply to: notsure1 notsure1, you are deceiving yourself if you think you have control of your childs healthcare in the US. Try saying you don't want your kid to have vaccinations, just because you don't think it's in the best interest of your child. Try saying you don't want your kid to have a blood transfusion because of your religion. Try saying you will avoid the standard cancer treatment of chemo and radiation because you have a better alternative option. You have freedom as long as you go along with the mainstream treatments.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Grambler

Agreed.

Family are the advocates. Without them, patients have little chance in this world.

My wife is my advocate, and she's a bulldog. Once when i was in the hospital they were going to move me ot a semiprivate room. Until she got ahold of them. She had a valid medical arguement that would have been harder to argue against than to just find another solution (which they did).

One time my brother in law was bleeding to death in the ER when my wife walked in. Little 4'11" mexican girl turned right around, found the first doctor she saw, grabbed him by the tie, and said, "You're coming with me" and made him address the issue.

I am 100% behind patient advocacy. Passionately. I've seen
what a bulldog can do for someone, and their survival. And only family loves enough to fight like that.[/quot


Agreed, advocating and taking personal responsibility for understanding your illness and treatment options as well as monitoring your treatment are life saving measures. As a nurse, I can tell you that you would be terrified and appalled at the number of mistakes that occur in the medical field every day

I will say it again fake moral outrage from many here. Just a chance to attempt to bash our NHS.
So obvious tbh seeing Texas has it on their law books but oh well that that isn't the same because it goes against your anti Brit bs.
I'm out.
You should be ashamed using this tragedy for your own bs.

originally posted by: testingtesting
I will say it again fake moral outrage from many here. Just a chance to attempt to bash our NHS.
So obvious tbh seeing Texas has it on their law books but oh well that that isn't the same because it goes against your anti Brit bs.
I'm out.
You should be ashamed using this tragedy for your own bs.

Yep here we see just how serious you are

You post an article and brag about it, then when shown how wrong it proves you are, you resort to saying we are bashing people and should be ashamed and leave

a reply to: Grambler

Just like you have done all thread when people attempt to tell you the facts.
Where was I wrong ? Texas has the law on its books but I thought it ould never happen in the states....
So yes I think you are as bad as the daily mail.

a reply to: notsure1
This is why I continually balk at the Big State attempts to control our lives more and more, I balk at socialist policies. Then I get people telling me I don't know what socialism is. Well folks, this is what it is. Do people get it yet or will they continue to believe the mouthpieces such as Bernie Sanders that socialism is all about people getting their needs taken care of for free by the government, or by others who have to pay more? Oh by the way, Michelle Obama herself told us what it is.... that we have to give up our pie so others can have more. She said it, why don't believe believe her?

originally posted by: pikestaff

originally posted by: MysticPearl
In communist England, health care kill you.

Just like lack of VA care can kill you.

The common point between the two being Government provided health care.

The parents should have been afforded the chance to move the child once the hospital said too late. No way the state should hold that kid hostage when the parents had offers of aide elsewhere. That Chad is freaking sic Tyrannical BS crap.