The Serious 9/11 Arguments Compilation.

a reply to: Jesushere

You are trying to change the topic again...

What test did Harrit run to show there was elemental aluminum in his sample to prove active thermite.

What lab did he submit the samples to verify active thermite to complete the discovery process.

You did not answer the question.

Yet Harrits claim of thermite was in a mix containing “an epoxy resin and kaolin clay “ and “iron oxide pigment and plates of aluminum/silicon consistent with reference samples of kaolin“

Why would anyone mix thermite in paint? Maybe because there was no thermite. No free aluminum for a thermite reaction

a reply to: Jesushere

You

This is false NIST talks about freefall occurring on 8 floors at a rate of 2.25 seconds. You can't have freefall in just the middle of the floor, Jesus.

Please quote where NIST specifically said 8 floors inside the building achieved free fall.

I think NIST makes it clear the facade is what reached the rate of free fall. Did NIST make the claim as a building as a whole?

www.nist.gov...

In a video, it appears that WTC 7 is descending in free fall, something that would not occur in the structural collapse that you describe. How can you ignore basic laws of physics?
In the draft WTC 7 report (released Aug. 21, 2008; available at wtc.nist.gov...), NIST stated that the north face of the building descended 18 stories (the portion of the collapse visible in the video) in 5.4 seconds, based on video analysis of the building collapse. This time period is 40 percent longer than the 3.9 seconds this process would have taken if the north face of the building had descended solely under free fall conditions. During the public comment period on the draft report, NIST was asked to confirm this time difference and define the reasons for it in greater detail.
To further clarify the descent of the north face, NIST recorded the downward displacement of a point near the center of the roofline from first movement until the north face was no longer visible in the video. Numerical analyses were conducted to calculate the velocity and acceleration of the roofline point from the time-dependent displacement data. The instant at which vertical motion of the roofline first occurred was determined by tracking the numerical value of the brightness of a pixel (a single element in the video image) at the roofline. This pixel became brighter as the roofline began to descend because the color of the pixel started to change from that of the building façade to the lighter color of the sky.
The approach taken by NIST is summarized in Section 3.6 of the final summary report, NCSTAR 1A (released Nov. 20, 2008; available at wtc.nist.gov...) and detailed in Section 12.5.3 of NIST NCSTAR 1-9 (available at wtc.nist.gov...).
The analyses of the video (both the estimation of the instant the roofline began to descend and the calculated velocity and acceleration of a point on the roofline) revealed three distinct stages characterizing the 5.4 seconds of collapse:
Stage 1 (0 to 1.75 seconds): acceleration less than that of gravity (i.e., slower than free fall).
Stage 2 (1.75 to 4.0 seconds): gravitational acceleration (free fall)
Stage 3 (4.0 to 5.4 seconds): decreased acceleration, again less than that of gravity

This analysis showed that the 40 percent longer descent time—compared to the 3.9 second free fall time—was due primarily to Stage 1, which corresponded to the buckling of the exterior columns in the lower stories of the north face. During Stage 2, the north face descended essentially in free fall, indicating negligible support from the structure below. This is consistent with the structural analysis model which showed the exterior columns buckling and losing their capacity to support the loads from the structure above. In Stage 3, the acceleration decreased as the upper portion of the north face encountered increased resistance from the collapsed structure and the debris pile below.

a reply to: Jesushere

How did the interior of WTC fall as a whole at the rate of free fall when it failed progressively from east to west, and then the facade fell?

www.nist.gov...

Eventually, a girder on Floor 13 lost its connection to a critical column, Column 79, that provided support for the long floor spans on the east side of the building (see Diagram 1). The displaced girder and other local fire-induced damage caused Floor 13 to collapse, beginning a cascade of floor failures down to the 5th floor. Many of these floors had already been at least partially weakened by the fires in the vicinity of Column 79. This collapse of floors left Column 79 insufficiently supported in the east-west direction over nine stories.
The unsupported Column 79 then buckled and triggered an upward progression of floor system failures that reached the building's east penthouse. What followed in rapid succession was a series of structural failures. Failure first occurred all the way to the roof line-involving all three interior columns on the easternmost side of the building (79, 80, 81). Then, progressing from east to west across WTC 7, all of the columns failed in the core of the building (58 through 78). Finally, the entire façade collapsed.

a reply to: Jesushere

You

like the perimeter walls of the towers were not composed of the outer columns. You were showing me a perimeter wall frame and saying look at that. Forgetting I could not see the perimeter internal column and the main steel core was located in middle.

What do you not understand about the below?

ws680.nist.gov...

The first major structural subsystem was the exterior framing, which was a vertical square tube that consisted of 236 narrow columns, 59 on each face from the 10th floor to the 107th floor (Figure 3).

The bowing seen from the outside is the “facade” directly bolted to the outer vertical columns. The only reasesn the exterior appears bowed is because the outer vertical columns bowed inward. The facade of the towers could not bow inward unless the columns bowed inward.

neutronflux Why you supporting the official version when you don't even know what happened?

Chapter 3 on page 44. You see what they said about stage 2!

ws680.nist.gov...

neutronflux Their own computer simulation of the collapse exposes the fraud. The ran a longer simulation of floors coming down across the perimeter of the building ( about 20+seconds) It easy to time the length where the Penthouse disappeared and the right corner wall on North side started to buckle and move.

Thier simulation is a fraud they are intentionally hiding the sudden onset of collapse. It took only seven seconds when the Penthouse fell for the right corner on the North side to fall down.

I should not say they are intentionally hiding it they just allowing more time for their theory to work. In reality, the seven seconds it took for the right corner wall to fall with the rest of the building is further proof WTC7 was brought down by unnatural means

They probably think people are stupid to notice this but some are not that stupid.

neutronflux You don't even need to take my word for it.

Count the time yourself.

NIST model video www.youtube.com...

Wtc7 reality www.youtube.com...

a reply to: Jesushere

Please quote or cite how the interior of WTC 7 collapsed as a whole st free fall when it collapsed progressively from East to West.

Oh, you don’t. I judged quoted NIST before your last post. NIST’s only claim of free fall is the mid collapse time wise of the facade.

neutronflux On page 44 chapter 3 it states exactly what happened please read it first. That is the full report from NIST about what occurred.

Ok, I even write it out for you and pain in the ass I have to do this

Stage 2 the north face descended at gravitational speed, as the buckled columns provided negligible to the upper portion of the North face. This free fall drop continued for approximately 8 stories 32.0m (105 feet) the distance travelled between times t= 1.75s and t= 4.0s

neutronflux NIST theory is Stage 1 allowed for the buckling of the external columns and started to fall. Stage 2 was the free fall for 8 floors, stage 3 is basically the rest of the building collapsing into a pile.

NIST, however, gave a lot of time for stage 1 to start and onset of stage 2 to start. Ther model of the collapse does not match up with reality is did not take 20+ seconds after the Penthouse disappeared from view for the right wall to come down. That right corner wall started to come down in 6 to 7 seconds after the Pent disappeared in reality.

NIST is giving further time to allow for buckling in stage 1 but just can't add time and pretend the collapse took longer to happen, that's fraud.

Just count the time it took when the Penthouse disappeared and the right corner wall on the North side started to move.

The entire society moves even further into a fatal resignation that government is all powerful and cannot be challenged.
wave the plastic flags made in China.

originally posted by: madenusa

The entire society moves even further into a fatal resignation that government is all powerful and cannot be challenged.
wave the plastic flags made in China.

As has been mentioned here many times before:
The planes may have been flown beyond their design envelops but that doesn't mean they should have broke apart mid air.

If you are so smart on this topic, please tell us exactly which plane was flown beyond its limits and exactly which limit was exceeded in which part of the flight.
Then show us where Boeing says the plane will 'fail' exceeding that limit.

Just waving your arms and saying "I have a youtube video !" is not enough.
Show us evidence that would convince a jury.

a reply to: samkentWhat prosecutor in their right mind brings a proceeding against a defendant when the chance of acquittal is 100% and the chance of conviction is zero percent?
Facts, proof and immutable truth is condemned.
I wanted to share a air plane pilots view on this whole investigation....
ATS members have done more investigation than our own Government.
Im just waiting for pigs to fly

a reply to: Jesushere

This is what you are ignoring......

I am paraphrasing because the copy function is disabled.

See page 21, the probably collapse sequence.
ws680.nist.gov...
Floor 13 lost support from column 79.
Floor 13 collapsed, resulting in a cascade of floor failures to the 5th floor.
Column 79 lost lateral support and buckled eastward. The buckling of column 79 initiated local collapse.
Because of column 79 buckling between floors 5 an 14, the upper portion of column 79 began to descend. This caused the kink to be visible in the east penthouse, and it’s descent. Then the cascade of floor failures from column 79 caused load redistribution to columns 80 and 81. Columns 80 and 81 buckled. All floor connections to these columns, and the exterior columns and the floors on the east side of the building failed. The exterior facade on the east quarter was a hollow shell. Then the failure of the interior columns proceeded west. Trusses failed, columns 77 and 78 failed. Then column 76 failed. Each north-south line of three core columns failed from east to west.
Forces were pushing columns westward. In seconds the entire building core was buckling. Only then was the global collapse of WTC 7 under way.

Or the short answer.

Questions and Answers about the NIST WTC 7 Investigation
www.nist.gov...

Then, progressing from east to west across WTC 7, all of the columns failed in the core of the building (58 through 78). Finally, the entire façade collapsed.

Again, the only thing timed at free fall was the north face.

www.nist.gov...

NIST stated that the north face of the building descended 18 stories (the portion of the collapse visible in the video) in 5.4 seconds, based on video analysis of the building collapse. This time period is 40 percent longer than the 3.9 seconds this process would have taken if the north face of the building had descended solely under free fall conditions. During the public comment period on the draft report, NIST was asked to confirm this time difference and define the reasons for it in greater detail.
To further clarify the descent of the north face, NIST recorded the downward displacement of a point near the center of the roofline from first movement until the north face was no longer visible in the video.

The interior of WTC 7 already under went local collapsing, was progressive collapsing from east to west, and the core columns already buckled before the facade began to collapse.

Can you quote NIST to show they claimed the interior of WTC 7 fell at the rate of free fall. Kind of hard for the interior of the WTC 7 to fall at the rate of free fall when it failed in stages from east to west. Then the facade collapsed.

a reply to: Jesushere

And there are at least two other studies that support fire related collapse of WTC 7. One is a sign deposition as evidence in a court case? When is the Architects and engineers WTC 7 evaluation going to be opened for public comments and the released?

a reply to: Jesushere

And

You are trying to change the topic again...

What test did Harrit run to show there was elemental aluminum in his sample to prove active thermite.

What lab did he submit the samples to verify active thermite to complete the discovery process.

You did not answer the question.

Yet Harrits claim of thermite was in a mix containing “an epoxy resin and kaolin clay “ and “iron oxide pigment and plates of aluminum/silicon consistent with reference samples of kaolin“

Why would anyone mix thermite in paint? Maybe because there was no thermite. No free aluminum for a thermite reaction

a reply to: Jesushere

So the only evidence of thermite you are down to is falsely claiming NIST said the interior as a whole fell at the rate of free fall. When the only thing that fell at the rate of free fall was one staged of the facade falling after the complete buckling of the interior core.

neutronflux. NIST analysis of buckling at column 79 was debunked in 2012, by FOIA request structural engineer Ron Brookman found that the Salvarinas "Fabrication and Construction Aspects," a document that outlines the basic structural system of WTC 7, shows 30 shear studs on the girder that collapsed.

NIST has to go back to the drawing board and factor in fasteners and shears bolts that were attached to the steel beams. The also claimed the seat was 11 inches wide when it in fact drawings show the seat was 12 inches. This destroys their thermal expansion idea of 5.5 inches, with an extra inch, they to develop a new hypothesis. NIST removed stiffeners on the girder so thermal of 5.5 inches could occur. The problem the stiffeners were on the girder it would have required 8 to 10 inches to move.NIST ignored the side plate stops lateral movements so coming off it seat never happened.

No independent group can verify or investigate NIST raw date. So they are saying this what happened and we not going to let anyone independently verify our work no peer review nothing.

The approach taken by NIST is summarized in Section 3.6 of the final summary report, NCSTAR 1A (released Nov. 20, 2008; available at wtc.nist.gov...) and detailed in Section 12.5.3 of NIST NCSTAR 1-9 (available at wtc.nist.gov...).

The analyses of the video (both the estimation of the instant the roofline began to descend and the calculated velocity and acceleration of a point on the roofline) revealed three distinct stages characterizing the 5.4 seconds of collapse:

Stage 1 (0 to 1.75 seconds): acceleration less than that of gravity (i.e., slower than free fall).
Stage 2 (1.75 to 4.0 seconds): gravitational acceleration (free fall)
Stage 3 (4.0 to 5.4 seconds): decreased acceleration, again less than that of gravity

Stage 1 is the top of the roof started to descend down a couple of floors

Stage 2 is roughly about 8 floors of freefall when right wall started to descend.

Stage 3 is roughly about 9 floors.

They only calculated 18 floors in this. But stage is 3 is when falling to the ground anyway.