The Serious 9/11 Arguments Compilation.

originally posted by: Jesushere

You forgetting you need high temperatures to corrode steel

Things I have done with battery acid no heat required:

Had a batch of wheel axels that would not fit inside the wheel bearings. Soaked them in battery acid for a couple of hours then they fit.

Turned a 28mm tube bending die into a 1 1/8 die with battery acid.

If I need a special size drill bit, I take the next size larger soak it until it is the exact size I want.

All of this has to be done outside because the fumes from the process will corrode all the tools in the shop.

Jesushere

Have you ever seen a video of Jones/Harrit igniting one of their red/grey chips.

It's really really really really really really really really really really really really.......Unimpressive!






Notice how this dangerous explosive substance does absolutely nothing to the thin metal element it's sitting on.

How much of this would it take to burn through a 3" thick steel column?

Very unimpressive.

a reply to: waypastvne

The way the chip expanded, it looked like it off gassed. And it looks like the created off gas is what ignited. I don’t think thermite works that way?

I bet if the test was redone in an oxygen free atmosphere you would get the expansion without the flash. No ignition. It would be easily done? Makes you wonder why Harrit never published the outcome of an inert atmosphere test? To remove doubt? Based on properties to highlight what would exclusively be inherit to thermite?

a reply to: waypastvne

Did Harrit film a control thermite sample for comparison? Vs a red chip?

neutronflux The debunkers would have a field day if the steel just looked bend, twisted and out of shape. Unfortunately for them, FEMA found corroded steel with big sized hole cutouts clear as day. There evidence right in front of your face nano-thermite composite material could have been used to cut through the steel beams and trusses. It a valid explanation ignored. FEMA even admits in their analysis they have no idea truly how the sulphur ended up on the steel in the quantities observed. FEMA even describes the steel was melted, they found a (liquefied liquid) it contained Iron ( Rich FE) ( Iron is what you do find after the thermite ignites) oxygen (has to be present they found that) They found sulphur which to date has never been fully explained, but we know sulphar+ nano-thermite increases the explosive impact.

Three, he only found aluminium oxide which is not active thermite. He totally speculated elemental aluminium with no conducted analysis to prove there was free elemental aluminium to create a thermite reaction.

Wrong he observed Elemental Aluminimum separate from other components on the red/grey chips. The paint he heated up also broke and fell apart unlike the red/chips. Dr Milette found no strontium chromate in the chips he analysed if it was Laclede paint should have shown up under microscopy.

And his “paper” was unethically peer-reviewed in a pay to play journal.

This is rubbish it's less expensive to post a paper on these sites, that's all, and frankly if mainstream scientists disagree they can release their own peer-reviewed paper debunking Professor Harrit claims.

No, thermite reaction makes elemental iron. Is that false? Yes, it is false what do you think the Iron Microspheres are?

originally posted by: waypastvne
Jesushere

Have you ever seen a video of Jones/Harrit igniting one of their red/grey chips.

It's really really really really really really really really really really really really.......Unimpressive!

Notice how this dangerous explosive substance does absolutely nothing to the thin metal element it's sitting on.

How much of this would it take to burn through a 3" thick steel column?

Very unimpressive.

You looking at a short timed experiment through a microscope. Are you really expecting it to look impressive? You forgetting that chips are 100 nanometers. There could be hundreds of these chips on the steel maybe even thousands when the nano-thermite was placed on the steel. They would even not be the size of Graphite on a pencil.

a reply to: Jesushere

More blatant falsehoods by you.

Wrong he observed Elemental Aluminimum separate from other components on the red/grey chips

Finding the element aluminum is not the same as finding elemental aluminum. The difference is huge.

By what you posted.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Using
a conventional quantification routine, it was found that the
aluminium significantly exceeded the oxygen present (approximately
a 3:1 ratio). Thus, while some of the aluminium
may be oxidized, there is insufficient oxygen present to account
for all of the aluminium; some of the aluminium must, therefore, exist in elemental form in the red material

Again, Harrit was speculating there was elemental aluminum from the fact there was oxidized aluminum. Harrit never did anything to prove there was enough actual aluminum free of oxidation to show his sample was thermite in nature. If he did, name that published result.


As far as the publishing, it was still a pay to play journal. Any university library would have access to the actual research journals. Many actual research journals allow online acces. The paper is still unethically peer reviewed. It bypassed it’s referee. And people that helped with Harrits paper were part of the review.

I am sorry, but you can believe all the falsehoods you want, by there is zero actual evidence of CD ny thermite.

Now, can you point to actual video evidence to show there is any indication of CD by thermite?

a reply to: Jesushere

Why worry about a journal at all when Harrit could have had a lab specifically test for thermite, and those results could have been shared with anyone and everyone? Because there is no thermite.

a reply to: Jesushere

The other problem with conspiracists? They post so much BS and propaganda, who knows what is worth the time to check.

a reply to: Jesushere

You just going to ignore waypastvne’s offering of coverings that matches Harrit’s red chips? Act like it was never referenced?

Dr Milette study is what Skeptics look to for debunking Harrit. Unfortunately for them, he found no strontium chromate in his sample tests thus debunking the sample he had was Primer Leclede paint. This was one of the three main primary ingredients listed that went in to make the primer. Dr Millette credibility is suspect because he was involved in the official dust study and there were accusations of fraud made against him and others who were involved in that study.
www.journalof911studies.com...

You posting out of context when you know I provided you with other information why he believes elemental aluminium in the sample. Anyway, don't you realise for there was no Aluminum, the chips would not have ignited for them? ( why don't you think about that before posting?)

Chemist Mark Basile who not involved with Harrit also found Iron and Aluminum in the sample he tested. He currently doing more work on this and will publish a paper or PDF on his findings when he has finished.

Falsehoods by Skeptics on forums Professor Harrit has published world recognised papers peer to peer papers in the past. They only reason Skeptics are upset is his findings are not in agreement with their bias view of how the three towers came down. They look for any excuse to discredit. If you disbelieve a finding you release your own paper. What has happened here is Chris Mohr on JREF released Dr Milette findings on there his paper was never peer-reviewed.

Now, can you point to actual video evidence to show there is any indication of CD by thermite?

The FEMA steel sample from WTC7 debunks everything you just said here.

a reply to: Jesushere

Chemist Mark Basile who not involved with Harrit also found Iron and Aluminum in the sample he tested. He currently doing more work on this and will publish a paper or PDF on his findings when he has finished.

One, actually cite Basile’s study.

Two, this is what you cannot get through your head.

The paper is falsely labeled as peer reviewed. It’s a shame, and Harrit has burnt all credibility.

The samples were never specificly tested for thermite. There is an exotherm that can be a result of any source of fuel burning. An exothermic reaction is not a property only inherent to thermite. Infact, the samples did not even behave like thermite.

Nobody is saying the samples did not contain the elemental aluminum. What they are saying is the majority of aluminum was bound with oxides, or other compounds. For there to be active thermite, there most be pure aluminum. Aluminium not In any compound form. Aluminium just in the form Al.

Harrit and Basile never conducted any experiment to show the dust was thermite by using properties inherent to thermite. Like conducting their experiment in a nitrogen atmosphere void of oxygen to see if the chips would still burn.

Name one analysis ran by Basile or Harrit that would specifically show there was unreacted thermite in thier samples. Name one lab they released their samples to for the conformation of thermite in the dust?

The Harrit / Basile thermite claim is junk science.

originally posted by: Jesushere
Now, can you point to actual video evidence to show there is any indication of CD by thermite?

The FEMA steel sample from WTC7 debunks everything you just said here.

What sample? You said everything was sent to China?

Like to post a link to the FEMA outline of the sample?

a reply to: Jesushere

This was the question

Now, can you point to actual video evidence to show there is any indication of CD by thermite?

Have to do with you standing

www.abovetopsecret.com...

The steel was hauled away to China and even the senators during a Senate hearing about 9/11 described it as a crime.

And this

The FEMA steel sample from WTC7 debunks everything you just said here.

Have to with video evidence? And the claim it was sent to China? How was there NIST samples and FEMA samples of the steel if it was sent to China?

a reply to: Jesushere

Analysis of Red/Gray Chips in WTC Dust

Dr. James Millette
MVA Scientific Consultants
www.MVAinc.com

February 20-25 2012
American Academy of Forensic Science
www.AAFS.org
2012 Annual Meeting
Atlanta, Georgia
www.mvainc.com...

aneta.org...

Results

The composition of the four samples of dust chosen for study were consistent with WTC dust previously published 2,3 (Appendix A).

Red/gray chips that had the same morphology and appearance as those reported by Harrit et al.1, and fitting the criteria of being attracted by a magnet and having the SEM-EDS x-ray elemental spectra described in their paper (Gray: Fe, Red: C,O, Al, Si, Fe) were found in the WTC dust from all four locations examined. The red layers were in the range of 15 to 30 micrometers thick. The gray layers were in the range of 10 to
50 micrometers thick (Appendix B).

The FTIR spectra of the red layer were consistent with reference spectra of an epoxy resin and kaolin clay (Figure 8) (Appendix C).

The SEM-EDS and backscattered electron (BE) analysis of the cross-sections of the gray layer in the red/gray chip showed it to be primarily iron consistent with a carbon steel. The cross-sections of the red layer showed the presence of equant-shaped particles of iron consistent with iron oxide pigment and plates of aluminum/silicon consistent with reference samples of kaolin. The thinnest kaolin plates were on the order of 6 nm with many sets of plates less than 1 micrometer thick. Small x-ray peaks of other elements were sometimes present. The particles were in a carbon-based matrix (Figures 9 through 14) (Appendix D).

TEM-SAED-EDS analysis of the residue after low temperature ashing showed equant-shaped particles of iron consistent with iron oxide pigment and plates of kaolin clay. Small numbers of titanium oxide particles consistent with titanium dioxide pigment were also found (Figure 15) (Appendix E).


PLM analysis of the residue from red/gray chips after muffle furnace ashing at 400oC for 1 hour showed very fine red particles consistent with synthetic hematite (iron oxide) pigment particles (Figure 16). PLM also found possible clay present based on a micro-chemical clay-stain test. TEM-SAED-EDS analysis of another portion of the same muffle furnace residue showed equant-shaped particles of iron consistent with iron oxide pigment, plates of kaolin clay and some aciniform aggregates of carbon soot consistent with incomplete ashing of a carbon-based binder (Figure 17). The SAED pattern of the kaolin particles (Figure 18) matched the kaolin pattern shown in the McCrone Particle Atlas8 (Appendix E). The values for the d-spacings determined for the diffraction patterns matched those produced by reference kaolin samples.

TEM-SAED-EDS analysis of a thin section of the red layer showed equant-shaped particles of iron consistent with iron oxide pigments and plates of kaolin clay (Figures 19 and 20). The matrix material of the red coating layer was carbon-based. Small numbers of titanium oxide particles consistent with titanium dioxide pigment and some calcium particles were also found (Appendix F).

The solvents had no effect on the gray iron/steel layer. Although the solvents softened the red layers on the chips, none of the solvents tested dissolved the epoxy resin and released the particles within. SEM-EDS phase mapping (using multivariate statistical analysis) of the red layer after exposure to MEK for 55 hours did not show evidence of individual aluminum particles (Appendix G).

In summary, red/gray chips with the same morphological characteristics, elemental spectra and magnetic attraction as those shown in Harrit et al.1 were found in WTC dust samples from four different locations than those examined by Harrit, et al.1 The gray side is consistent with carbon steel. The red side contains the elements: C, O, Al, Si, and Fe with small amounts of other elements such as Ti and Ca. Based on the infrared absorption (FTIR) data, the C/O matrix material is an epoxy resin. Based on the optical and electron microscopy data, the Fe/O particles are an iron oxide pigment consisting of crystalline grains in the 100-200 nm range and the Al/Si particles are kaolin clay plates that are less than a micrometer thick. There is no evidence of individual elemental aluminum particles detected by PLM, SEM-EDS, or TEM-SAED-EDS, during the analyses of the red layers in their original form or after sample preparation by ashing, thin sectioning or following MEK treatment.

a reply to: Jesushere

Funny the reaction of thermite is:

en.m.wikipedia.org...
Fe2O3 + 2 Al → 2 Fe + Al2O3

Yet Harrits claim of thermite was in a mix containing “an epoxy resin and kaolin clay “ and “iron oxide pigment and plates of aluminum/silicon consistent with reference samples of kaolin“

Why would anyone mix thermite in paint? Maybe because there was no thermite. No free aluminum for a thermite reaction.

aneta.org...

There is no evidence of individual elemental aluminum particles detected by PLM, SEM-EDS, or TEM-SAED-EDS, during the analyses of the red layers in their original form or after sample preparation by ashing, thin sectioning or following MEK treatment.

a reply to: Jesushere

More on thermite and nano thermite.

Discussion

The Encyclopedia of Explosives9 describes thermite as essentially a mixture of powdered ferric oxide and powdered or granular aluminum. There are two sets of ingredients listed for thermite in Crippen’s book on explosives identification.10 The first is iron oxide and aluminum powder and the second is magnesium powder, ferric oxide, and aluminum powder. Nano-thermite (thermatic nanocomposite energetic material) has been studied in the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California. A TEM image of a thin section of that material was published by R. Simpson11 in 2000 and
shows material that is made up of approximately 2 nanometer iron oxide particles and approximately 30 nanometer aluminum metal spheres (Figure 21).
According to the Federation of Societies for Coatings Technology, kaolin (also known as aluminum silicate or china clay) is a platy or lamellar pigment that is used extensively as a pigment in many segments of the paint industry.12 It is a natural mineral (kaolinite) which is found in vast beds in many parts of the world.13 Iron oxide pigments are also used extensively in paints and coatings.13,14 Both kaolin and iron oxide pigments have been used in paints and coatings for many years.13,14 Epoxy resins were introduced into coatings in approximately 194715 and are found in a number of specially designed protective coatings on metal substrates.

In forensic studies, paints and coatings often must be broken down so that the components of the entire coating product can be studied individually. Epoxy resins are formed from the reaction of two different chemicals which produces a polymer that is heavily cross-linked. Epoxy resins can be especially difficult to dissolve. Organic solvents, including those sold commercially for epoxy paint/coating stripping, were found to soften the red layer of the red/gray chips but did not dissolve the epoxy resin sufficiently so particles within the coating could be dispersed for direct examination. In this study no organic solvent was found to release particles from within the epoxy resin and it was necessary to use low temperature ashing to eliminate the epoxy resin matrix and extract the component parts of the coating. The other procedures generally used to examine component particles within a coating without extraction (cross-sections and thin sections) were also applied in this study.

a reply to: Jesushere

There is no active thermite in the red chips. Can you point to Harrit using an independent lab to prove active thermite. Can you point to one analysis Harrit conducted to prove active thermite.

The red chips are paint. The red chips tested like paint. The red chips are “consistent with a carbon steel coated with an epoxy resin that contains primarily iron oxide and kaolin clay pigments.” The red chips are are not consistent with thermite: Fe2O3 + 2 Al .

Why would you need to publish a paper if you used tried and excepted forensic analysis for testing for paint?

Analysis of Red/Gray Chips in WTC Dust

Dr. James Millette
MVA Scientific Consultants
www.MVAinc.com

February 20-25 2012
American Academy of Forensic Science
www.AAFS.org
2012 Annual Meeting
Atlanta, Georgia
www.mvainc.com...

aneta.org...

conclusions

The red/gray chips found in the WTC dust at four sites in New York City are consistent with a carbon steel coated with an epoxy resin that contains primarily iron oxide and kaolin clay pigments.

There is no evidence of individual elemental aluminum particles of any size in the red/gray chips, therefore the red layer of the red/gray chips is
[/quote

edit on 24-8-2018 by neutronflux because: Added and fixed

edit on 24-8-2018 by neutronflux because: Removed quote

a reply to: Jesushere

No, thermite reaction makes elemental iron. Is that false? Yes, it is false what do you think the Iron Microspheres are

I did not know “Iron Microspheres” was on the periodic table? What it’s atomic number?