UK legislation. Courts. End of life. Who decides?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
I'm sorry to hear about your condition, friend.

Ah thanks mate, but don't be sorry, it is what it is. I'm not down or sorry myself, being 'Les Miserable' about it won't fix anything.
I'm just cross with myself for not taking the insurance policy which would be paying out my lost earnings by now.
As Homer would say...Doh!

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: ScepticScot

With a few exceptions it really is free at point of use.

I suppose if you don't pay taxes it might be. But that's just a way of hiding that fact that someone else is paying for it.

Still free at point of use, that is the point.

No it isn't. Unless the healthcare system runs on air, it isn't free.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
Had a friend stung in similar situation when he switched to self employed contractor status for (a lot) more money.

Being ill is bad enough without having to worry about your income as well.

It's something I've told all my self employed mates about, and every one of them have taken policies out now, just in case.
Accident & critical illness loss of income insurance - So something good has come out of it at least because none of my mates will find themselves in a similar position now.
As I said, I am a prize knob

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: ScepticScot

With a few exceptions it really is free at point of use.

I suppose if you don't pay taxes it might be. But that's just a way of hiding that fact that someone else is paying for it.

Still free at point of use, that is the point.

No it isn't. Unless the healthcare system runs on air, it isn't free.

No one said it was free. You just don't pay to use it.

Big difference and I am sure you are more than capable of understanding the difference.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: ScepticScot

Not sure I follow. How is having guaranteed treatment under the NHS with option of private if you have the means or insurance more difficult than only bring able to get treatment privately?

What I said was, "It gets a little difficult when your only answer to health needs is state-run healthcare". Examples of this includes people who cannot afford private healthcare, and are thus stuck with the bureaucratic version.

In such cases a patient has the right to be transfered to a private hospital of their choice and get treatment free of charge if waiting 12 weeks or longer for treatment under the NHS constitution. If the bureaucratic version isn't up to scratch or waiting lists are too long, the power transfers to the patient to receive free private healthcare (outside procedures not carried out by the NHS).

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

I get what aspect you are coming from, but there is no charge to the service user while accessing treatment. Of course we all pay for it in taxes...well those of us who pay taxes at least.

I badly broke a load of ribs a year or so ago, was in hospital 5 nights on intraveinous Morphine, don't remember much, but I can only imagine how much that would have cost if they'd billed me for it.

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy

originally posted by: ScepticScot
Had a friend stung in similar situation when he switched to self employed contractor status for (a lot) more money.

Being ill is bad enough without having to worry about your income as well.

It's something I've told all my self employed mates about, and every one of them have taken policies out now, just in case.
Accident & critical illness loss of income insurance - So something good has come out of it at least because none of my mates will find themselves in a similar position now.
As I said, I am a prize knob

I suppose its one of those things that's just too easy to put off till another day.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Haha yes! "Oh it can wait, I'll do it next week..."
My experience has certainly given my self employed mates a wake up call, so silver lining in my personal fluffy cloud.

a reply to: bastion

A mate of mine had cancer surgery in a local private hospital funded by the NHS. He reckoned it was like staying in a hotel.

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: ScepticScot

Haha yes! "Oh it can wait, I'll do it next week..."
My experience has certainly given my self employed mates a wake up call, so silver lining in my personal fluffy cloud.

I changed pension provider about a year ago and I still haven't added my missus on as beneficiary if I die.

Still if I am dead at least she can't moan at me for not doing it...

a reply to: ScepticScot

Get it done mate!!
...and lmao, at least she can't moan at you

EDIT
My ex-missus is actually beneficiary on my personal pension if I die. I could have made it my son but he'd probably blow the lot so she got it instead because she's more responsible lol

As an aside, I checked out the welfare benefits available for me being incapacitated, turns out roughly £73 per week.
I make more than that in a day so didn't bother and instead am doing a couple of days work here and there as I'm able to.
How anyone can live on a tenner a day I can only imagine, must be hell.

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
As an aside, I checked out the welfare benefits available for me being incapacitated, turns out roughly £73 per week.
I make more than that in a day so didn't bother and instead am doing a couple of days work here and there as I'm able to.
How anyone can live on a tenner a day I can only imagine, must be hell.

If I am having a bad day I spend more than a tenner on coffees. Bloody hell £73 a week!!!!!.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Haha!
...and yes, £73 a week, rising to I believe to £109 if they deem the condition to make all work impossible after 13 weeks. Something called ESA Employment Support Allowance.
Oh, I'd get a full discount on my Council Tax as well (Property tax to US readers) so that would also save me £140 a month, but still, I'd be well poor.

Tenner a day on coffee?!
I have one a day in the morning, filthy black fluid I treat solely as a wake up drug...65 pence a jar Tesco basics, it is minging but does the trick!

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: ScepticScot

Haha!
...and yes, £73 a week, rising to I believe to £109 if they deem the condition to make all work impossible after 13 weeks. Something called ESA Employment Support Allowance.
Oh, I'd get a full discount on my Council Tax as well (Property tax to US readers) so that would also save me £140 a month, but still, I'd be well poor.

Tenner a day on coffee?!
I have one a day in the morning, filthy black fluid I treat solely as a wake up drug...65 pence a jar Tesco basics, it is minging but does the trick!

Can't be easy on that if you have been used to decent money.

Yes sadly I drink the expensive girly coffees that come on oversized cups with sprinkles on top.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
...stuff goes here...

I came to this thread expecting a load of old wives' tales, but this is a very well thought and technically accurate post. I'm guessing you're NHS?

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

but legal for them to withdraw nutrients so I starve slowly to death. Madness.

Again we are not taking food away from anyone.

When you are so sick that you cannot eat and your kidneys have packed in, your liver is just building up toxins and your body is starting to shut down due to sepsis or your cancer has progressed to the point your totally cachexic and it's is killing you then their reaches a point where their is no point in providing nutritional support.

The intent is never that "somebody dies". The intent is to let nature take its course - which may mean death, but may mean life. There are times when the patient manages to stabilise after active care is withdrawn. In those cases, medical treatment might well be resumed.

No doctor takes those decisions lightly. I've talked through many such situations with them.

originally posted by: EvillerBob
The intent is never that "somebody dies". The intent is to let nature take its course - which may mean death, but may mean life.

Withdrawing fluids and nutrients, however administered, will result in death 100% of the time, just slowly.
When a court knows that the withdrawal of fluids/nutrients results 100% of the time in death then it is effectively euthanasia as far as I see it. I then wonder why a humane morphine shot is illegal because it does exactly the same just quickly.
I'm with you on stopping the ventilator though, but if someone continues to breathe, no matter how automatically, I am of the opinion that fluids and nutrients should continue to be administered until the condition kills the patient. Or as you say, nature takes it's course.
Plenty of people with complex physical/mental health needs being kept alive artificially solely by fluid/nutrients through a tube. A few of my mates work in care homes and if they didn't provide the service the patients would die.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
Can't be easy on that if you have been used to decent money.

I hope I don't have to find out! I can see why some poeple exaggerate their pain and sell their excess medicines on the black market, like tramadol, codeine etc to boost their income.

Yes sadly I drink the expensive girly coffees that come on oversized cups with sprinkles on top.

LMAO, I wouldn't know the difference between a Mocha and a Latte if you asked me!

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

I support euthanasia but you are just flat out wrong to say that its happening in the UK with the removal of food and fluids.

When it gets to a point where you have terminal multiple organ failure then it does not matter if you if you have food or not you will die. If you can take food then you will be provided with food.

You are making it sound like we just stop feeding people witch is just simply not the reality.

The child in Liverpool is breathing with the help of ocassional mouth to mouth from his parents, but the doctors are authorised to withdraw fluids/nutrition with the intent that he dies. It seems that way to me, why not authorise a decent morphine overdose?
It is euthanasia just the same.

It was called the Liverpool Care Pathway:
en.wikipedia.org...

When someone is in their final years, they are suspectible to infections as the immune system slowly starts to fail. That can be compensated through antibiotics. Then their heart loses pressure leading to pneumonia and fluid buildup. That can be taken care of with a ventilator, pacemaker, and other medications. If there is any pain or discomfort, painkillers can be given But some medications will make people sleepy. The person becomes and bedridden. That leads to bedsores. And their whole situation will get worse, until they spend all day in bed asleep being kept alive by machines.