The modern church is gnostic

a reply to: incoserv

Yeah maybe just ramblings but I thought it was clear
Maybe you miss understand
Jesus taught that love, remembering love is a verb, was the duty and responsibility.
That Christians arnt just loved by God, we are to go out into the community and love others, show our love to others, love others

I have been invited to a bible study and I know what they will do, study the bible. They won't teach anything related to applying what we learn into the world, just understanding the word, just talking about what the word means

Studying is important obviously but if a person is not taught to apply what they learn it becomes valueless. I am not saying a person shouldn't be taught, nowhere have I said that, I am saying they should be taught how to apply, actions required to living the Christian life

The church has become self serving, many have become what I would deem armchair theologians with no practical capacity. Happy to do no more than listen, taught no more than listening

Thankyou, I am aware a church should have sound teachings and sound practice.
I have just noticed that many churches don't encourage individuals in sound practice
The point of the thread

The church functions are to make you believe in other people's life stories over your own (without factual evidence) nothing wrong with believing at all.

Sorry for going off topic.

originally posted by: DarkvsLight29
The church functions are to make you believe in other people's life stories over your own (without factual evidence) nothing wrong with believing at all.

Sorry for going off topic.

Not that I am aware of, the churches mission is to be a representation of Jesus in this world.
Not just to teach and preach but love like Jesus loved, sinners as well, no judgement or condemnation

a reply to: Raggedyman

Just which church are you talking about? Christianity is so divided today. None of the churches I've ever visited are Gnostic but I wouldn't rule it out.

a reply to: toms54

The church as a whole
I wouldn't say gnostic in the truest form, more that they seek knowledge, listen and don't produce any Christian actions

People in the church will give money but don't show love, compassion or be part of the Christian community outside Sunday morning church

a reply to: Raggedyman
Knowledge: Insight, Volume 2

Essentially, knowledge means familiarity with facts acquired by personal experience, observation, or study. The Bible strongly urges the seeking for and treasuring of right knowledge, recommending it rather than gold. (Pr 8:10; 20:15) Jesus stressed the importance of truly knowing him and his Father, and knowledge is repeatedly emphasized in the books of the Christian Greek Scriptures.​—Joh 17:3; Php 1:9; 2Pe 3:18.

Source of Knowledge. Jehovah is actually the basic Source of knowledge. Life, of course, is from him and life is essential for one’s having any knowledge. (Ps 36:9; Ac 17:25, 28) Furthermore, God created all things, so human knowledge is based on a study of God’s handiwork. (Re 4:11; Ps 19:1, 2) God also inspired his written Word, from which man can learn the divine will and purposes. (2Ti 3:16, 17) Thus the focal point of all true knowledge is Jehovah, and a person seeking it ought to have a fear of God that makes him careful not to incur Jehovah’s displeasure. Such fear is the beginning of knowledge. (Pr 1:7) Such godly fear puts one in position to gain accurate knowledge, whereas those who do not consider God readily draw wrong conclusions from the things that they observe.

The Bible repeatedly links Jehovah and knowledge, calling him “a God of knowledge” and describing him as “perfect in knowledge.”​—1Sa 2:3; Job 36:4; 37:14, 16.

The role that Jehovah has assigned to his Son in the outworking of His purposes is of such importance that it can be said of Jesus: “Carefully concealed in him are all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge.” (Col 2:3) Unless a person exercises faith in Jesus Christ as God’s Son, he cannot grasp the real meaning of the Scriptures and see how God’s purposes are working out in harmony with what He has foretold.

One is helped to appreciate more fully the meaning and importance of knowledge by examining the Hebrew and Greek words often translated “knowledge” as well as by noting the relationship between knowledge and wisdom, understanding, thinking ability, and discernment.

Meaning of Term. In the Hebrew Scriptures a number of words (nouns) that can be translated “knowledge” are related to the basic verb ya·dhaʽʹ, signifying “know (by being told),” “know (by observing),” “know (by personal acquaintance or experience),” or “be experienced, skillful.” The exact shade of meaning, and often the way each word should be translated, must be determined by the context.
...
In the Christian Greek Scriptures there are two words commonly translated “knowledge,” gnoʹsis and e·piʹgno·sis. Both are related to the verb gi·noʹsko, which means “know; understand; perceive.” The way this verb is used in the Bible, though, shows that it can indicate a favorable relationship between the person and one he “knows.” (1Co 8:3; 2Ti 2:19) Knowledge (gnoʹsis) is put in a very favorable light in the Christian Greek Scriptures. However, not all that men may call “knowledge” is to be sought, because philosophies and views exist that are “falsely called ‘knowledge.’” (1Ti 6:20) The recommended knowledge is about God and his purposes. (2Pe 1:5) This involves more than merely having facts, which many atheists have; a personal devotion to God and Christ is implied. (Joh 17:3; 6:68, 69) Whereas having knowledge (information alone) might result in a feeling of superiority, our knowing “the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge,” that is, knowing this love by experience because we are personally imitating his loving ways, will balance and give wholesome direction to our use of any information we may have gained.​—Eph 3:19.

E·piʹgno·sis, a strengthened form of gnoʹsis (e·piʹ, meaning “additional”), can often be seen from the context to mean “exact, accurate, or full knowledge.” Thus Paul wrote about some who were learning (taking in knowledge) “yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge [“a real knowledge,” TC; “a personal knowledge,” Ro; “clear, full knowledge,” Da ftn] of truth.” (2Ti 3:6, 7) He also prayed that ones in the Colossian congregation, who obviously had some knowledge of God’s will, for they had become Christians, “be filled with the accurate knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual comprehension.” (Col 1:9) Such accurate knowledge should be sought by all Christians (Eph 1:15-17; Php 1:9; 1Ti 2:3, 4), it being important in putting on “the new personality” and in gaining peace.​—Col 3:10; 2Pe 1:2.

Related Attributes.
...

Seeking out such knowledge does not make one "gnostic" as that word is used to describe those Gnostics (from the Greek word gnoʹsis, “knowledge”) who during the second and early third centuries C.E. combined apostate Christianity with Greek philosophy and Oriental mysticism. And it was the early so-called "Church Fathers" and "apologists" who did that too, the "modern church" (not sure how you mean that, as in Christendom?) has just stuck with those Pagan Greek (or Babylonian and Egyptian) philosophies (allthough often modified, so then it's better to phrase it as: the newer doctrine originates from or was inspired by those sources and ways of thinking), eg.:

Myth 1: The Soul Is Immortal
Myth 2: The Wicked Suffer in Hell
Myth 3: All Good People Go to Heaven
Myth 4: God Is a Trinity
Myth 5: Mary Is the Mother of God
Myth 6: God Approves of the Use of Images and Icons in Worship

a reply to: whereislogic

I think if you took the time to read and understand my post you would comprehend I wasn't talking gnosticism
I was talking about the church that is just happy sit and listens, to just teach and preach without actions required and does nothing about what they hear

Save the lecture for someone at their door, you could have saved yourself a lot of time
I don't listen to JWs, nothing personal, just not interested

Watchtower doctrine may be above the bible, it isn't for me, thanks

a reply to: Raggedyman

Then we're saying the same thing.

a reply to: Raggedyman
"gnostic" as defined in the google dictionary:

adjective: gnostic

1.
relating to knowledge, especially esoteric mystical knowledge.
relating to Gnosticism.
adjective: Gnostic

noun
noun: Gnostic; plural noun: Gnostics

1.
an adherent of Gnosticism.

All definitions related to "Gnosticism". Your choice of words is misleading as you seem to downvalue the need for the right type of knowledge and "accurate knowledge of truth" for a Christian (or you end up putting that learning process in a negative light with the way you're talking about it). Hence my detailed description of the word "knowledge", its meaning and its importance (or value) as stressed in the bible, and only mentioning "Gnostics" as a side issue since I already saw you weren't using the word "gnostic" in relation to "Gnosticism" as the word is defined in the google dictionary, which has no other definitions there than the ones I just quoted. My comment isn't for those who will not put up with it like yourself and are determined to continue to use misleading language to discourage any efficient truth seeking (and learning the "accurate knowledge of truth" that Paul spoke about at 2 Tim 3:6,7). That's why I said:

Seeking out such knowledge does not make one "gnostic" as that word is used to describe those Gnostics (from the Greek word gnoʹsis, “knowledge”) who during the second and early third centuries C.E. combined apostate Christianity with Greek philosophy and Oriental mysticism.

In no way did I imply you were using the word "gnostic" in that correct manner as related to "Gnosticism" and "Gnostics" (of the 2nd and 3rd centuries or later). I was actually subtly hinting towards the opposite which I spelled out now as "misleading". Without implying you are doing so deliberately, but without ignoring that possibility either.

a reply to: Raggedyman

I don't know if you would include Roman Catholics as part of the Christian Church. I would but I'm aware many do not. I bring this up because I was raised in the Catholic faith and it's the one I know the most about. Over the course of my life, I've been a member of many groups sponsored by other denominations. I've met their people, attended their services, read a lot, and developed an appreciation for some of the other denominations.

I believe many of them are pretty active in the community. Much of their effort centers around children and family concerns. This seems to be the most active with maybe charities running second.

On the higher levels of the Catholic there is a real problem of corruption. Not just the communists and Masonics that have infiltrated in the last 50 years but also homosexuals and sexual predators. I'm not trying to rail against any group but all of this has changed public perception to the point where not very many people are willing to enter the priesthood anymore. It's dwindling and many of us no longer attend Mass very often myself included.

The lack of clergy has, in America anyway, led to a heavy female influence with pressure for woman priests and more focus on schools and education even though Catholic schools often have mostly non Catholic students nowadays.

If you wish to translate your faith into action, you need to get involved in the church activities. This might be easier for a woman with children than for a single male. Still, there probably is something. Talk to your Pastor.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: incoserv

...
Studying is important obviously but if a person is not taught to apply what they learn it becomes valueless. I am not saying a person shouldn't be taught, nowhere have I said that, I am saying they should be taught how to apply, actions required to living the Christian life
...
Thankyou, I am aware a church should have sound teachings and sound practice.
I have just noticed that many churches don't encourage individuals in sound practice
The point of the thread

Agreed, that's why the page I quoted from before continues with...

Related Attributes. Frequently in the Bible, knowledge is linked with other attributes such as wisdom, understanding, discernment, and thinking ability. (Pr 2:1-6, 10, 11) Grasping the basic differences between these greatly illuminates many texts. It is to be acknowledged, though, that the original words involved cannot be said to match invariably certain English words. The setting and the use of a word affect the sense. Nonetheless, certain interesting differences emerge when one notes the Bible’s references to knowledge, wisdom, understanding, discernment, and thinking ability.

Wisdom. Wisdom is the ability to put knowledge to work, or to use it, the intelligent application of learning. A person might have considerable knowledge but not know how to use it because of lacking wisdom. Jesus linked wisdom with accomplishment in saying: “Wisdom is proved righteous by its works.” (Mt 11:19) Solomon asked for and received from God not just knowledge but also wisdom. (2Ch 1:10; 1Ki 4:29-34) In the case of two women who claimed the same child, Solomon had knowledge of a mother’s devotion to her child; he displayed wisdom by using his knowledge to settle the dispute. (1Ki 3:16-28) “Wisdom is the prime thing,” for without it knowledge is of little value. (Pr 4:7; 15:2) Jehovah abounds in and provides both knowledge and wisdom.​—Ro 11:33; Jas 1:5.
...

1 John 5:2,3

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and carry out his commandments. 3 For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome,

So that's why "wisdom is the prime thing". One needs to apply the knowledge one learns for that knowledge to become truly valuable and develop wisdom in the process of observing God's commandments including the ones about loving God, loving your neighbour as yourself and loving "the children of God" (the latter you want nothing to do with because you do not think that they are "the children of God", there doesn't seem to be much love for them either in your words, I still remember your slanderous lies/falsehoods about them that you used in one of my earliest threads on ATS; which were very easy for me to recognize having first-hand experience on the subjects you spoke about there. It didn't come across as very loving when I responded to that commentary and you didn't want to acknowledge that you said things about them that were rather blatantly false, regardless of whether or not it was deliberate initially). But that process of observing God's commandments (and thus demonstrating one's love for God and love for "the children of God" as those concepts are all linked as explained in the bible verses above) is not going to go right if one lacks understanding, does not use discernment appropiately and misuses one's thinking ability. The page I already linked continues with those subjects and more practical examples to assist in putting the right type of knowledge into practice.

Such as:

Because a person with understanding is able to connect new information to things he already knows, it can be said that “to the understanding one knowledge is an easy thing.” (Pr 14:6) Knowledge and understanding are allied, and both are to be sought.​—Pr 2:5; 18:15.

The “understanding heart is one that searches for knowledge”; it is not satisfied with a mere superficial view but seeks to get the full picture. (Pr 15:14) Knowledge must become ‘pleasant to one’s very soul’ if discernment is to safeguard one from perversion and deception.​—Pr 2:10, 11; 18:15; see KNOWLEDGE.

Source: Understanding: Insight, Volume 2

a reply to: toms54

Thanks Tom but
My point was not church activities, my point was how people act when they are not doing church activities, it's how they act when they are not being watched
It's the daily grind, it's about applying daily love when you are living your life all the time, not just church activities when it looks good

All I am saying is preachers preach at people who are happy to sit and listen, unfortunately the preaching will not teach anyone how to put into practice what they are hearing. Those same people won't engage what they are being taught


There are good Catholics and bad as there are good Protestants and bad

a reply to: Raggedyman

Which Gospel? The gospel of the kingdom,

Matt 4:23 ¶ And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

the gospel of the Grace of God

Ac 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

or the Everlasting Gospel

Rev 14:6 ¶ And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

a reply to: Raggedyman

What is your understanding that Christians should be "about Loving People"?

Please give an example of your understanding.

I don't doubt that love was one of the tenants and I see it happen at church all the time. But if a man who confesses with his mouth and believes in his heart and accepts Jesus Christ as his saviour and accepts his finished work on the cross and substitutionary death on the cross, and that same man continues to live in sin, and you are the pastor of that church, it is your duty to rebuke that person. That is a form of Love, tough yes, but love none the less.

That is one example of the love I see at church, I also seen many come together and build a house for an elderly person whose houes burnt down. that was love a s well. I could give you plenty of loving actions for a church.

But what is you idea about what you believe "that the church is about loving people"?

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I listened to a minister recently rant about drinking beer, must have been an issue I wasn't aware of in the church
He just stood up the front and ranted, basically said stop drinking beer
That is not going to happen with ranting

What he could have done is offered support to the people who needed support, maybe AA or got them people to talk to, he offered nothing but a rant

Last week their was a strange sermon about humor in the gospel, how Christians are to have faith and delight in God
As Christians we are to grow in the Spirit, the fruit of the spirit.
Once Christians are Christian accept the gospel, then we should grow in the Spirit, not just sitting listening to people talking about the bible

I have just been sitting in churches where there is no challenge, no responsibility taught, just people teaching the bible, not teaching application of what was spoken about

a reply to: Raggedyman

That is what I see too. It is a sham just to make money that is why I wrote a thread about the church being nothing but a job.

the ignorant pastor ranting about beer was not addressing the issue, which is being drunken or in drunkenness, that is the sin. A single beer is healthy however to a person who cannot control themselves would be stumbled by those who have only one. A glass of wine a day is again healthy. In may European countries wine is drank with every meal. Again the issue is drunkenness not the occasional drink. The problem is if your brother who is weak sees you then he who is weak might think it is ok but then he falls into the sin of drunkenness because of your/our liberty.

Paul talks about it in Romans 14 about stumbling a brother with our meat, drink and holy days.

I have to take lots of pain meds right now. But they are way to much so I will stop for a few days and in that time at night before bed I follow an old physicians prescription from a farmers almanac dated in 1790's. 2 to 3 oz of Brandy at bed time. Brandy is actually a strong wine. It helps with bone pain during the night. I sleep well when I follow it but I only do it for a few days when not taking the meds to give my body a break from the medication. I keep the bottle hidden and out of sight an I never drink it in front of anyone. And I never get drunk on it. Seems Brandy warms the bone from the inside and helps with the joint pain and arthritis. Though I have none, it does do the trick on the pinched nerves as it does help the inflammation around the nerve and re leaves the pain.

I am still waiting on my lawyer to take the Insurance company to get my procedure. L5 is is pivoted on my S1 and is pinching the nerve constantly and I have bulging disks from L3/L4 and L4/L5 and my Coccyx is so bound up that sitting for more than 15 minutes in a chair is the most painful thing I do each day. I stand a lot and walk that is the best as long as I don't lift. But I am in pain every day for the last 8 months since my fall.

My church has shown love by taking up offerings for us and given us food and send us prayer texts all the time. It is not the best church but it is a loving church. It is small and I like it that way. Occasionally I teach with application and I believe the AKJV Bible I am preaching from just as it says it in the English and I get many meanings from it and many applications from the same verses sometime.

Today's churches are not full of men called to preach and teach but placed there because of educational degrees and that does not a pastor make. I was called to the Philippines after I got my Doctorate in Theology. But I learned more about ministry in the mission field than I ever learned in school, When people come to you and their nipa (grass hut) house has burned to the ground and they lost a child, That is when you learn to really have a heart of Jesus to love and give. We gave then clothing, food, utensils, pots and pans sheets and pillows but all that was nothing compared to sharing them about what Jesus had done for them on the cross, dying in their place I assured them that their child was not old enough to be accountable for sin. But I asked them the same question I was asked they day I got saved "if you were to day today where would you be heaven or hell". And like me they knew hell was the place they would have been. We cried, we laughed, we prayed and they received Jesus into their hearts and lives. They were just 2 of over 720 that we had led to the Lord Jesus there in the Philippines in15 years.

We had to end our ministry because our youngest son at almost the age of five still had no more than two words. We had no money to fly back to the states so we prayed earnestly and then two weeks later someone paid for tickets for us to come home for furlough. Generally furloughs are only 3 months and tops. After five year of prodding, blood test, weeks in hospitals, neurological tests and genetic test we finally got a diagnoses. Our son has a very rare gene disorder called Phelan-McDermid Syndrome only been studying it since 1997, still not much is know about it but some have it worse than our son and some have is better than he. So far he will need constant guardianship with him at all times. His speech has improved but the psychologist says it is only about 2 year old, but we see it higher than that, the same psychologist also says that his cognitive abilities is about a 3 to 4 year old. But again we see a ten year old at times.

But God he is good and he blessed us with this child, and not some uncaring couple who would have either aborted him or gave him up to a foster home, or worse use him for SSI and take advantage of him for his money for being disabled. We never treated him like he wasn't normal, and it is said by all the professionals who have dealt with him that he is the best behaved of all the others like him they have seen. Our answer is we never allowed him to think his disability is an excuse for bad behavior or a reason to through fits.

We teach him godly values by living it in front of him. He learns well by watching and he loves everyone he meets, just like we do. Very few people have spooked us or him enough to avoid them. But like I said he always has to have someone with him at all time. His disease caused his body to over heat and he has everything form mild tonic fibril seizures to complex fibril seizures (which look like a grand mall seizure). We are very joyful hfamily and he is a very joyful kid. Loves even simple things.

Well I hope you are not to disappointed by these men who are in the ministry just for a job and not a calling. Some are good motivational speakers but use little bible and others don't even know how to teach the bible mainly because they don't believe it.

Peace be with you and may grace abound in your path of life.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Ranting about beer is one thing, telling people to stop is another
Not helping people to stop is my issue
Not giving people effective direction to change their lives is the problem

a reply to: Raggedyman

Maybe you should consider another church or a service with a different minister.

How do you know how people act when they go home? Perhaps one in ten are inspired. Maybe it is a good thing you see this now. You can try to make a change. A lot of sermons just go right over the head of most people. I think even Jesus spoke about this.

a reply to: Raggedyman

First thing, what is the sin? Second, which has three sub points, what is the Outcome (i.e. beer drinking in your example), the Opportunity and the Occurrence of Drinking beer or any sin? Third, what is the effect on your other brethren? The righteous will judge and the weak fall away. And Fourth, How can one stop (i.e. beer drinking)?

1) The sin is being drunken and drunkenness. Call sin sin and nothing but sin no matter what that sin may be or how it makes you feel.

2) The outcome usually is one can't stop at one beer. And when beer wont do it, then one steps to the next level drugs of another kinds. The opportunity is loneliness, lack of fellowship with fellow believers and the lack of accountability to a fellow believer. and the Occurrence putting oneself in the wrong place at the right time for sinfulness, whatever that sin may be.

3) The righteous look down on those who are stuck in their sin and offer no love and prayer for them. The weak, see it and think it is ok and fall back into old lifestyles and fall away from leading a Christian life of holiness. Teach the righteous to pray and support the weak, and teach the weak to lean on Christ and a mature Christian as a confidant.

4) You must put the beer drinking or any sin under the blood, claim it, pray it is the first step, the second step is to replace the drinking or other sin with the words of God. The thing I did in Christ when I first got saved, was replace the drug addiction, the cigarettes, the alcoholic addiction, and the pot smoking with reading and studying the Bible.

You get to hankerin' for a beer pick up that Bible and read. You get a hankerin" for a smoke pick up and read that Bible, when you get a hankerin' for drugs or pot pick up that bible and reading and study the Bible. And you keep that up for 30 days most of those addictions are physically out of our system and out of you heart ad mind. Jesus said

Mt 11:28 Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

And Paul said,

Roms 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Also teach the righteous not to judge their brother, but rather to read the Bible when they start to judge and condemn them, and study the Bible so they can teach the weak as well as themselves. Self-righteousness is just as much a sin as it the sin of drunkenness.

Give ourselves over to those things of Christ i.e. Bible reading, Bible Study and prayer. These are three example of what Jesus Himself did as an example for us. When tempted he recited Scriptures, when questioning he committed to do God's will rather than his own and he prayed.

Ps 119:9 ¶ BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
10 ¶ With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
11 ¶ Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Oh and don't forget to quote this verse

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

the way of escape is always the scriptures

Now take that to your church and preach it. If the church wont allow it then start a home bible study group and teach it there.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Sorry CJ
I am not reading all that
Start at yourself, plank eye thing, then love into the community
Preaching doesn't work, loving does