Quick Question about Solstice and Perihelion and the 4 Seasons. How does it work?

a reply to: AnkhMorpork

That's correct. Precession is due to the wobble of Earth's axis.

You know how the Earth is not a perfect sphere, how it has a slight equatorial bulge? That means there's more mass at the equator. That's what causes the wobble.

That greater mass means that the gravitational attraction between the Moon (and Sun) and Earth is not even. It's a bit stronger at the equator. This creates a "twisting" force that's called torque. When torque is applied to a spinning object it causes the object to precess. It works with a gyroscope and it works with the Earth.

There are, by the way, other things going on with the axis. But I don't feel like going into them.

originally posted by: Phage
Now, here's the fun part. Currently, on December 21 (the solstice), the Earth is pretty much at perihelion (its closest distance to the Sun). But, in 13,000 years the solstice will occur when the Sun is at aphelion. Will that cause a change in seasons or climate? Not in seasons (winter will still be winter and occur in the same months) but because the Earth will be about 3% farther from the Sun than it is now there will be a bit less solar radiation. So, in the northern hemisphere winters will be a bit colder and summers will be a bit warmer. And vice versa for the southern hemisphere.

So does "in the northern hemisphere winters will be a bit colder" mean we will re-enter an ice age?

Maybe not if we pump some greenhouse gases into the atmosphere to prevent it. This is a good presentation of that cycle and other cycles. There are a lot of cycles:

Is an Ice Age Coming? | Space Time | PBS Digital Studios

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
Another way of asking is if it spins every 24 hours the northern hemisphere would end up being the southern hemisphere (and vice versa) and therefore receive the suns rays at a different angle and yet we have opposing seasons every 4-6 months not daily.

No, the spin every 24 hours doesn't change northern hemisphere to southern hemisphere. Above the arctic circle you can see the sun 24 hours a day around the summer solstice (about 10 days before and after June 21st).

Midnight sun

The midnight sun is visible at the Arctic Circle from 12 June until 1 July. This period extends as one travels north: At Cape Nordkinn, Norway, the northernmost point of Continental Europe, the midnight sun lasts approximately from 14 May to 29 July. On the Svalbard archipelago farther north, it lasts from 20 April to 22 August.

During those same times, near the south pole, you can't see the sun at all, it never rises. 6 months later, it's reversed and the south pole gets sun 24 hours a day and the sun never rises at the north pole.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

So does "in the northern hemisphere winters will be a bit colder" mean we will re-enter an ice age?

Not because of precession alone. Remember, it will also cause summers to be a bit warmer. But that ice age thing (glacial periods?) is complicated. Who knew?

a reply to: Phage

What are your thoughts on Galactic "weather" like another star getting closer to our sun and perhaps causing a perturbation in the Oort cloud? The stars move around relative to one another don't they? Or do they essentially remain in the same position relative to one another as the Milky way slowly turns?

Also, as we move through space amid the galactic rotation, could we not be at risk at any given time of running into something like a dust or gas cloud or something like that?

Lastly, how fast is our star moving or I should say how fast is the galaxy turning at any given moment, regardless of how long the whole thing takes to do a rotation?

Using the same principal re: angular momentum, wouldn't the stars closer to the galactic core (theorized to be a super-massive black hole) be moving like really "fast" and if there's relative motion (mixing?) in spite of the fact that there's still a lot of space in between stars even close to the core where they are packed in more "tightly" - wouldn't that cause more "interaction" and thus more chaos and cataclysm (generally precluding really stable environments for long term, sustained evolution)?

My point here, I think, is if we're are conducting a survey in search of other M-Class planets with long-term, stable environments wherein sustained evolutionary development could have taken place (as on Earth using Earth as an analogue), wouldn't we be MOST likely to find such living worlds around the same approximate distance in the outer arm(s)? Would make sense to start in an ever widening sphere relative to Sol as the center of the search, even if we could look elsewhere.

Allegedly, the most stable of all the stars in the Milky Way that have been like that for the longest time reside in a "halo" above the disc. Imagine life evolving like it did here, a billion years ago..?

Thank you again Phage.

Best,

Ankh

a reply to: AnkhMorpork

Using the same principal re: angular momentum, wouldn't the stars closer to the galactic core theorized to be a super-massive black hole be moving like really "fast"

I'll be selective to your raft of question. The answer is yes. That's how the black hole was identified, as a matter of fact. Fast stars. Really really fast stars. Really fast.
www.galacticcenter.astro.ucla.edu...

a reply to: Phage

How fast is fast (still reading and looking at that)? Can you TLDR it for me? Say in terms relative to the speed of our own sun and solar system moving through the galaxy?

Super fast stars at the center of the galaxy, kicking each other's evolutionary asses in their interactions?


That's really neat Phage. Pleased that the hypothesis held true.

I'm detecting something in alignment with what I said above, where the type of galactic climate that's most favorable to life and what we enjoy on Earth as an analogue, represents a type of evolutionary spiral emanating from the galactic core or in other words that we're also in a Galactic Goldilocks Zone, the band of which has yet to be determined but may be as we survey our region of "our" arm of the Galaxy in search of M-Class Earth-like rocky water worlds.

The following is simply to demonstrate the idea of motion within and "through" the galaxy by our sun and all the others as they move through space (aether?), just as a contextual frame of reference and not to try to demonstrate the theme of the video. And for the music and drama of it all, and how a thread started with a stupid question can suddenly get interesting, if we're asking the right questions? and getting the right answers to those questions.

Relating to the Question posed in the OP

scienceblogs.com...

originally posted by: AnkhMorpork
[snip]
The following is simply to demonstrate the idea of motion within and "through" the galaxy by our sun and all the others as they move through space (aether?), just as a contextual frame of reference and not to try to demonstrate the theme of the video. And for the music and drama of it all, and how a thread started with a stupid question can suddenly get interesting, if we're asking the right questions? and getting the right answers to those questions.

You're a legend!
Thank you for sharing that video.


That video visualises the motion that since 2010, I've claimed our Solar system makes and is responsible for the precession of the equinoxes, the cause of the perceived 'wobble' of the Earth's axis. There's a point in the video where it marks out the period of the precession of the equinoxes too.

If only it showed our neighbouring stars making a similar spiralling path along with us and also marked the angle of Earth's axis at the same time. That would have demonstrated the mechanics of the precession that I've hypothesised, very nicely.

That the Earth's axis doesn't actually wobble, but the 'wobble' is an illusion viewed from Earth due to the mechanics of the galaxy.

a reply to: Hammaraxx

That video visualises the motion that since 2010, I've claimed our Solar system makes and is responsible for the 'Grand Procession", the cause of the perceived 'wobble' of the Earth's axis.

It's called precession. A Grand Procession is part of a graduation ceremony.
commencement.utexas.edu...

That the Earth's axis doesn't actually wobble, but the 'wobble' is an illusion viewed from Earth due to the mechanics of the galaxy.

Precession is quite real and it is a result of mechanical physics. The Earth does indeed, wobble.

a reply to: Phage

Will you return to answer more of the questions I posed? It seemed to be going somewhere really interesting..

a reply to: AnkhMorpork

I have. The Solar system has a "vertical" motion within the Galaxy as well as a revolutionary motion around the Galaxy's center. Both take a very, very long time to occur. Much, much longer than 26,000 years.

a reply to: Phage

Never mind. Forget it.

Thought I communicated fairly well re: galactic "weather" and the relative motion of the stars in the galaxy, and that you might have picked up on my enthusiasm.

If learning about these kinds of things doesn't enthrall a person, or motivate the desire to learn and/or to teach, then nothing really can be done..

You seem so dispassionate about it all Phage, like Spock almost.

What REALLY motivates and drives you, I'm curious? I think it might be atheism to be perfectly honest or science as a defense against mystery.. (with a ton of reference sources bookmarked)

Why don't you take delight in it?

P.S. I had never researched anything about the galactic core, but seem to have been able to describe the dynamic fairly well, maybe you're not impressed, but I was.

Did you note where I was going with it? or don't care one iota.

Maybe the impacts that wiped out the dinosaurs wasn't just a random occurrence..

The time frames involved are irrelevant to the inquiry.

a reply to: AnkhMorpork

P.S. I had never researched anything about the galactic core, but seem to have been able to describe the dynamic fairly well, maybe you're not impressed, but I was.

On the contrary. It was a brilliant piece of astronomy. But it happened a number of years ago. That doesn't lessen its worth but you know, other stuff happens too. Can't stay excited about everything all the time.

a reply to: Phage

Does it ever mystify and move you?

a reply to: AnkhMorpork

The Milky Way? Every time I'm lucky enough to see it.
I'm also amazed by what we've been able to learn about it and that the more we learn the more questions are raised.

But it irritates me when there are those who discard what we've learned. I'm not talking about you. You are very receptive and seem to want to understand what's really happening rather than what just sort of sounds cool. What's really happening is very, very cool.

originally posted by: Phage
It's called precession. A Grand Procession is part of a graduation ceremony.
commencement.utexas.edu...

Ha ha ha, classic, you got me there.

I clearly must not have woken up enough this morning when I posted that and let spell check get the better of me.
"precession" gets the red underline in my editor window, but as you can see in my sig, I've used the 'better' term for years now and should have known better.

BTW: The post has been edited to what I should have called it in the first place, the precession of the equinoxes.

Cheers Phage.

a reply to: Phage

Do you think that Hammaraxx's hypothesis might have any validity? It has a certain intuitive consistency to it, whereas, if the earth is spinning on it's axis 365 times/year, year after year, the "torque gyroscope" (rotating/wobbling axis) hypothesis taking so long (26,000 years) doesn't seem as valid an explanation for precession of the equinox, whereas the movement of our solar system through the galaxy crudely depicted in that video would certainly explain it. You say that rotational corkscrew cycle moving above and below the galactic plane takes what was it "40 million years" or something like that, and yet the entire galactic rotation is "only" 226 million years..

Something's off.

Is it possible that he might have been bang on the money and that you're wrong in whatever scientific assumptions have been made about precession in relation to the Earth's axis?

I know there's a wobble of the ocean due to the gravitational effects of the moon, but that's not what you were referring to.

It's important I think to remain open and not to ASSUME or just go by what the scientific journals say.

I'm going with Hammaraxx's hypothesis. Makes more sense for explaining precession as a type of illusion (that the axis is wobbling like a top once every 26,000 years).

Could you and the science you're referencing, be wrong?

Please don't take offense.

Best regards,

Ankh

originally posted by: Phage
Here's a little tidbit to help confuse the issue. Astrology (yea!), sort of.

Currently, on the day of the winter solstice (northern hemisphere), the Sun rises in the constellation Sagittarius. Just barely. A thousand years ago, it was pretty much smack dab in the middle of the constellation but in another thousand years it's going to be between somewhere between Scorpius and Ophiuchus.

How come? It's because of precession of the equinoxes. Now, that word is tossed around a lot in various contexts but its effects are often misunderstood. Precession is caused by the "wobble" of Earth's axis. It is a very slow wobble, taking about 26,000 years to complete its cycle.

There is a common misconception about precession, that it is a change in the tilt of the axis. If this were true precession would have an impact on length the day/night cycle. But it isn't true. It is not the tilt of the axis that changes, but a change in where the axis "points" to, in the sky.

Now, here's the fun part. Currently, on December 21 (the solstice), the Earth is pretty much at perihelion (its closest distance to the Sun). But, in 13,000 years the solstice will occur when the Sun is at aphelion. Will that cause a change in seasons or climate? Not in seasons (winter will still be winter and occur in the same months) but because the Earth will be about 3% farther from the Sun than it is now there will be a bit less solar radiation. So, in the northern hemisphere winters will be a bit colder and summers will be a bit warmer. And vice versa for the southern hemisphere.

Oh, and the Sun will rise in Gemini.

Impressive.

Phage, with an honest-to-goodness response, sans condescension. The cherry on top: he delves into astrology/zodiac -- the scourge of pseudoscience -- I guess everyone has a momentary lapse of reason..

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: AnkhMorpork

The Milky Way? Every time I'm lucky enough to see it.
I'm also amazed by what we've been able to learn about it and that the more we learn the more questions are raised.

But it irritates me when there are those who discard what we've learned. I'm not talking about you. You are very receptive and seem to want to understand what's really happening rather than what just sort of sounds cool. What's really happening is very, very cool.

Hi phage old timer .it might look like I'm new around here but I first used to hang out on these board's around 17 years ago when I was 13. I have been a regular reader and only recently started posting again.

I remember having some interesting discussions with you back then regarding many things mainly the weakening of the earth magnetic field. I think my username in my early teens was nuttygit or something lol..

Anyway I wanted to ask you a question...

I have followed all developments in qm and technology advancements. What is your current believes in quantum mechanics and consciousness and how do you think the science of qm relates to consciousness. And what's your current believes regarding ufos and e.t. visitation and/or intervention with nuclear bases etc.. I know this is a bit off topic but I would really like to hear your response old friend i remember you being a huge sceptic back then. Has your views changed or are you more open to the possibilities these days. I remember back then you was quite sure in your believes that the vastnes of the physical space was to much for any being to transverse the distances required to visit our tiny blue dot.

But since we have seen more evidenCe that supports alternate dimensions. Is it possible to travel outside of this physical dimension? Could it be possible.. what do You THINK?
You have to admit we can describe the effects of gravity but just how it works we don't really understand. Same with consiousness we can see, feel and measure it in action but where does the source for conscious energy arise from how does the action of measuring photons affect the behaviour of what was thought of as a non conscious thing.. I know you can't answer these questions but I would like to hear your Believes. You may need to leave our current understanding and step outside our box to answer these questions friend just saying.

Spooky action at a distance. Is this proof of faster than light travel.. I think so...



Hope your in good health old boy. Will look forward to your response..

a reply to: Oldskool88


Phage is admirable for sure, and I can't speak for him but he's not into any sort of "woo" and likely believes that consciousness is contained exclusively in the skull and central nervous system or exclusively in the meat bag so to speak which is what I call the illusion of an isolate consciousness. A materialist monism of mass/energy "particulate" instead of a monistic idealism that posits consciousness as primary and the material universe as a thoughtform of some kind as being at cause as a prime mover and experiencer. That's by far too "woo" for Phage, I would think (although we'll see what the wise old one has to say). Consciousness, they maintain (they have to, to stay out of woo territory) is an epiphenomenon of matter or an amergent phenomenon, (which would suggest that a quantum computing deep AI that becomes self aware is possible (humanity's worst nightmare).

That said, it's possible even within that context that there are microtubules in the brain (Roger Penrose) which must have macro quantum effects which in theory would connect our own central nervous system with the zero point field which is non-local and holographic neither here nor there but at some level everywhere.

I would purport that we go to that place every single night when we drop into dreamless, Delpha brainwave sleep in between periods of REM sleep. A kind of "pulse" of regenerative power and energy as we enter and reenter this field then moves like a body scan at slightly varied wavelengths corresponding with each organ in the body. There's an ocean there, and we simply must be considered as being emersed within and intricately connected with it, and there the materialist monist cartesian paradigm falls apart, and if I'm right, then this knowledge as a knowledge of understanding, should be available or accessible within the qualia of our own unique personal experience. (does this make the reader laugh out loud?)

Can the imeasurable and the intangible be measured within the context of scientific inquiry?

Reality it turns out is by far stranger than we could possibly have imagined, and if we cannot stand apart from it in an impersonal manner, then we are just so royally screwed because the absolute reality can never be measured, only experienced in whatever way which comes right back down to the here and now, however mundane, or sacred, or both at the same time (and so arises the mirth once again).

We simply cannot stand apart from consciousness and describe it as a "thing" of some kind. It transcends matter, and even time and space but not with any loss of information (akashic field). Therefore, we must consider the possibility that the best of the best has already been held in reserve for last, like a fine wine at a wedding celebration (run with the allegory, never mind the material) with we ourselves as the guests of honor, as soliptistic as that might appear. It's like a wellspring of a higher knowledge and understanding as a context in which "death" loses it's meaning and it's sting.

"I am the resurrection and the life!" (you know who)

The last are first and the first last. If we are humble, then we get moved up, but he who exalts himself will be humbled. It's funny.

I once asked a Buddhist - what is it all about, what are you trying to "do" and he smiled and said to me "to be small", and if the truth of the matter is that we're also very big, hyperdimensionally (and not just a "thing"), then that's funny, and a continual challenge.

I just now "grokked" what he was talking about and understand his smile.

Sorry for jumping in and going on - I know you wanted to hear from Phage after all these years.

Be blessed,

Ankh