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Truth and Reconciliation in America

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posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 06:06 PM
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originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: ketsuko

I do feel that individual vs governmentally sanctioned/perpetrated crimes are different.
I am addressing the latter because I have faith in our country's values and think there is way too much disparity between our values and how they have been enforced.

We can move forward in a more just way and acknowledge how far we've come in the process, as we have truly come far!


You don't think the Civil War was enough acknowledgement of slavery? How many died over that one again?

How many SCOTUS decisions ... basically the government making formal legal acknowledgment of the illegality of Jim Crow and segregation ... were there?

Presidents sent in National Guard troops to enforce that de-segregation too. An month every year has been dedicated to making sure no one forgets the accomplishments and history of African-Americans.

But, you are so right ... African-Americans and their legacy are simply ignored outright and no one pays any attention. We have no idea at all who people like Frderick Douglass and Harriet Tubman were or why they are important to history. No one knows who Benjamin Banneker is or W.E.B. du Bois. I have no clue what it means when someone talks about the Harlem Renaissance ... at all. Do you? What about the Great Migration? Do you know Harriet Beecher Stowe? What about towns like Nicodemus? Have you ever studied them and why they were settled?

I learned about all of these and more in my school during my education years.

Making a formal announcement doesn't change anything. They don't want words. Have you even seen the demands?




posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 06:24 PM
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Its a nice thought to finally be able to reconcile and put it all behind us but in reality that will never happen. As I have pointed out in the past on topics like slavery, the people of today are in no position to make amends for the past for far too many reasons. For instance, some black people think they deserve reparations for slavery. Lets say that is true. It would follow to reason that slave owners should be the ones who pay them, right? Not so fast. As we know slave owners had sex with slaves. Those children and their descendants are of both slave and slave owner heritage. Who pays whom? And what about the fact that the first legally recognized slave owner in the US was a black man who owned a black slave? Who pays whom? And what about white slaves? The Irish were treated far worse than blacks were in many cases. Who pays them? And what about the blacks who sold their own into slavery? Who pays whom?

It seems that I am focusing on the financial part of this event but in reality I am making a much bigger point. If you cant figure out who should pay whom, you cant figure out who is to blame and who should "atone" for their sins.

It is also worth pointing out that only in this nation is slavery still such a hot button issue. Visit our neighbors to the north and see for yourself. Black people and white people getting along just fine. Their ancestors had to deal with the same ugly past but they simply moved on. Black people and white people in Canada are all just people. Of course there are exceptions but in general they get along better. They acknowledge their similarities as much as their differences and they just get along. That will never happen here. Ever. The attitudes are too negative and there is simply too much hate. And the determination to be "different" from the other guy is far too strong to allow the similarities to dominate the interaction.



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 06:35 PM
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I will point out that settlers living near comanche were brutally murdered.

It was less a genocide and more a war.

The real genocide was the buffalo, who were slaugjtered en masse to break the comanche. It worked....they had a half white chief talk them onto the reservation (quanah parker).



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 06:58 PM
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All valid points, and thanks to everyone who took the time to read and respond. There is a lot to think about in here, imo. I appreciate everyone's perspective and will take it all into account when I write whatever letters are going to come of this conversation. (futile maybe but I do want to follow through and try to do my part to unite our communities)

Letters/blogs are the only thing I can think of where I can contribute something. I'd like to offer the right people (one poster on here mentioned a decent-sounding state rep) some ideas toward working to lessen the divide here.

I also think that, despite all the rhetoric, our country has made great strides and achieved worthy goals for the betterment of humanity. I think so highly of us that I am convinced we can do even better.



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 07:05 PM
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a reply to: Vroomfondel

You know what else is unique to the situation in the US?

We are also the only place who fought a war where slavery was a central issue that helped those hostilities come to a head. It is overly simplistic to say the war was entirely over slavery and nothing else, but slavery was the issue that brought those underlying issues to a head.



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 08:33 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Over half a million died in the Civil War, which if it was to end slavery was quite the sacrifice. Why isn't this acknowledged? Slave owners were left broke at the end so there are no "profits" left to their descendants that can be given to anyone. This is all just historical race baiting to further political affiliations and garner votes.
edit on 16-4-2018 by Asktheanimals because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 08:46 PM
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a reply to: Asktheanimals

What is all just political race baiting? My OP, which was my own independant proposal based on years of conversations with many Americans and reading and thoughtful consideration of all sides of the issue?
I voted for Jill Stein but would have voted Libertarian if they had put up a good candidate. I don't really subscribe to any party and am an official "Independent."
I don't get the frenzied response, in all honesty. I know the current climate is ... tense.. which is one main reason for writing my OP, but I don't think what I'm saying is too out there. If I am, I'd like to hear specific examples.

edit on 16-4-2018 by zosimov because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 08:57 PM
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a reply to: zosimov

This is why. Things like this are becoming increasingly common. Study groups open to only POC.

Everyone makes the assumption that only POC have certain problems or are the only ones who suffer in this country which is a bald-faced and shameful lie.

I see it in my own family. The *exact*same*problems* that POC have that they claim are the result of the racist system somehow inflict my brother-in-law's brothers. But they're white. I wonder how that happens, and if I point that out, I'm told they're still better off somehow being white because of "white privilege"! When I know from personal experience of people on both sides (poor black/Hispanic and white) that they're in the same situation. Ain't no difference (pardon my language).

And now you come on here telling us that this will all just magically go away if someone makes an official apology?

I'm sorry. We have people who can't even see that the poor suffer, not black poor or white poor or Hispanic poor or Native American poor ... THE POOR.



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 09:32 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

You misrepresent my position, I think.

I am here offering one possible solution, or a series of possible solutions, to the very real problem of racism-- whatever direction it is coming from, or form it is taking (for example the problems you just mentioned, anti-white rhetoric is one form of racism you can attest to) it exists, and ought to be addressed, and asking if anyone else had any.

Not too many other suggestions so far. But I am open to hearing them!


edit on 16-4-2018 by zosimov because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 09:36 PM
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a reply to: zosimov

I'm not accusing you of race baiting but those who use this subject in a political context for gain. I feel bad about many things that happened in history but I'm not 'sorry', I can't be sorry for something I did not do. So I personally cannot apologize as that wouldn't be genuine, in this context I have done nothing to apologize for. The government has changed, laws passed and every part of society has representation in our political system. The rich have no racial bonds and use sensitive parts of history to put all of us at odds with each other. Everyone has to forgive, forget and get on with life. History is like an old poker hand, it might have sucked once but you're not holding the same cards any more.
edit on 16-4-2018 by Asktheanimals because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 09:50 PM
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originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: Metallicus

How would it hurt you if our government followed in the footsteps of countries such as Germany and admitted to genocide?


Do you know that Germany has paid hundreds of billions in reparations since WW 1 both to the Allied powers and various ethnic groups? Blame comes with a price tag in these situations. Confession amounts to guilt which leaves them open to endless lawsuits. This money can only come now from taxpayers who bore no part in these past injustices. A simple gesture becomes something much, much bigger. There are constituencies who stand to gain that will make sure of it.



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 09:50 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: ketsuko

It was a terrible policy! What do you want me to say about it?


Yes, it was, but it's how they solved the problem of getting too many kids from the wrong neighborhoods into the prison system.

It didn't actually fix anything and only made it all worse, but what did you expect from the government? They're only there to help.


Since you have wholly mischaracterized the policy, can you care to name it, so that we can demonstrate just how bizarrely you have colored it to fit your need to blame Parkland on Obama?



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 09:53 PM
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a reply to: Asktheanimals

Ah. Thanks for clarifing!



May I please clarify my own stance in that I do not believe that any of US owe anyone else an apology for any past tragedy. Not Even if our own family member, father or mother, were guilty of an atrocity would we ourselves be guilty or need to apologize.

I am suggesting our government make the overtures I mentioned in OP because government perpetrated atrocity (against individuals living in its bounds, especially) is different from individual crimes, and in hopes of promoting some healing and effect some real changes which welfare and the existing education reform-- No Child Left Behind-- etc has not done. No living person is responsible for any of the crimes I mentioned, but the government sponsored army was, which is why I feel our government could only benefit from addressing and distancing itself from, officially taking a new approach, to the issue.

We can't do anything about the ugly side of our country's past, but we can move forward in a new way for a better future. We have to start somewhere, and I feel that our leadership ("the government" I keep mentioning) could... well, lead us by doing more to promote positive change.



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 10:14 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: ketsuko

I do feel that individual vs governmentally sanctioned/perpetrated crimes are different.
I am addressing the latter because I have faith in our country's values and think there is way too much disparity between our values and how they have been enforced.

We can move forward in a more just way and acknowledge how far we've come in the process, as we have truly come far!


You don't think the Civil War was enough acknowledgement of slavery? How many died over that one again?

How many SCOTUS decisions ... basically the government making formal legal acknowledgment of the illegality of Jim Crow and segregation ... were there?

Presidents sent in National Guard troops to enforce that de-segregation too. An month every year has been dedicated to making sure no one forgets the accomplishments and history of African-Americans.

But, you are so right ... African-Americans and their legacy are simply ignored outright and no one pays any attention. We have no idea at all who people like Frderick Douglass and Harriet Tubman were or why they are important to history. No one knows who Benjamin Banneker is or W.E.B. du Bois. I have no clue what it means when someone talks about the Harlem Renaissance ... at all. Do you? What about the Great Migration? Do you know Harriet Beecher Stowe? What about towns like Nicodemus? Have you ever studied them and why they were settled?

I learned about all of these and more in my school during my education years.

Making a formal announcement doesn't change anything. They don't want words. Have you even seen the demands?


The Civil War would be plenty, if it had ended the exploitation of black people in the U.S. forever. But, it didn't even come close, it just shifted the battlefield, one that continues through today.

Lee Atwater set out beautifully the Wall Street approach to getting the poor white to vote against their own interests, and obviously used race as the means: www.thenation.com...




You start out in 1954 by saying, “N***** n*****, n*****.” By 1968 you can’t say “n****”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “N*****, n*****.”


Now, you don't say "busing" but you say you "don't have time for PC" and you don't know David Duke, and of course, tax cuts, and we know who will get hurt worse by ending the ACA.

It's the same thing over and over, and perhaps that's why the OP wanted a real discussion about amends. But, there is a significant portion of America that wants the exact opposite. They're tired of being told to be "PC," they "want their country back" and Wall Street is right there to oblige, (Hillary would've serviced Wall Street, too, I am not naive, but wages might've gone up some, there would be tax cuts for actual people that needed them).

Because just the right percentage of the electorate in certain states agreed that they had no time for PC, a minority of Americans elected a president who has set about putting up a supreme court that has consistently ruled against the worker in suits against an employer, consistently ruled in favor of Wall Street, Trump walks around bragging about rolling back regulations - as regulations are inherently bad. Some are. Some are not. But, near all cut from profits, so in that sense, they ARE all in the same boat when it comes to what Trump will cut.

On it goes.

The shrinking middle class, all bc yelling N**** N**** N***** still works in code. I find it telling that the greatest gains made by the poor/middle class came in the 3 decades following WWII - when BIG GOVERNMENT was its biggest, the GI Bill, interstates, NASA, Unions, "what was good for GM was good for America and tax rates double what they are today, and when the country had just bled together, rich/poor, black/white, native/immigrant; if we ever want to be that nation again, (and some don't), we need to get back to that feeling, where we are all in it together.

No, I do not believe the left is "pure," either. But, I know which side I'd rather miss upon.



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 10:21 PM
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a reply to: zosimov

Anything the government does comes with a price tag.

Where does that money come from? Out of our pockets as taxes.

The other issue is this: There is right now another thread that is also very true. The very people you are talking about see the entire system, including the government as racist. So it won't make any difference if the government does something. It will still be racist as the system itself is viewed as such.

Nothing less than the total tearing down of the system will satisfy.

I sympathize with people in that sense. In times past, when people felt this way, they left the countries they hated living in. Our ancestors did it and came here, but there is nowhere left to go.

If we mastered interstellar flight enough for people to try leaving, I'd be more than happy to leave all the sad sacks behind and go rough it on my own with a small group of like minded folks even if there was only a chance of a new life somewhere else in the universe. That's how much I don't want trouble and think these problems are intractable. And honestly, I don't give a flying eff what you look like so long as you are like-minded enough that you're willing to come and work your @ss off to make whatever we find work when we get there.



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 10:41 PM
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originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: burdman30ott6

It is foolish to assume we can just "move on" from genocide and leave it unacknowledged. It is downright cruel to continue the abuse by disproportionately punishing crime in poor black neighborhoods (for example) throwing tax money into prisons rather than education.


I applaud you for swimming upstream with a topic of this sort on a far alt-right website -- Andrew Jackson, good ole Hickory, is a bastion of their mythology.

I got 2 posts in and saw this "punish the sons for the sins of the fathers which weren't even sins when they were committed" -- to these people, genocide in the name of manifest destiny and the frontierman's delusion is good enough for them to declare mass murder, incarceration, and slavery weren't sins 160 years ago. Good luck, it's a prideful and, largely, audience allergic to facts that don't comport with their narrative.

Moreover, that was a moderator that typed that quote. Know your audience, outside of that, I can understand your struggle to see a 'greater America'...don't worry though, beyond those nitwits and apologists, America is made up of the world's best people and it's light may flicker and wane, but it will always (that's relative) be the world's beacon. Ben Franklin, James Madison, and Thomas Jefferson could see the forest for the trees -- they weren't the prospectors of democracy/constitutional republics, but they sure as hell got 90% of it right. And it's still right to this day.



posted on Apr, 17 2018 @ 02:27 AM
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originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: burdman30ott6

It is foolish to assume we can just "move on" from genocide and leave it unacknowledged. It is downright cruel to continue the abuse by disproportionately punishing crime in poor black neighborhoods (for example) throwing tax money into prisons rather than education.


The indians killed off a previous people here.They got karmic retribution. and black crime seems off due to their large number and poor raising.



posted on Apr, 17 2018 @ 08:01 AM
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a reply to: BeefNoMeat

No.

What you aren't getting is that it's not that we don't see it as wrong today. We do, but we don't live in the days when those things happened. In those days, reality was different, and you can't look back into the past and judge it based on how we live today because they didn't live that way. If they did, things would have happened differently.

It's like calling Mohammad a pedophile. You really can't exactly because in his day and age, the practice of child marriage was a widespread and culturally acceptable thing. No one back in Mohammad's day was going to call him a pedophile because marrying very young girls is simply what happened as part of survival. The world then was a very, very different place than it is today, and to call him a pedophile is to judge him with modern standards. Now it is very, very fair to call anyone who holds Mohammad up as a defense to continue child marriage a pedophile because the world today is very different.

And do you know who pointed this out to me and made this very logical argument? Someone the world today regards as one of the biggest haters of Islam that exists ... but he will defend Mohammad on that point against people while still nailing on almost everything else.

The past was always lived on very different terms than our present is. It is very easy for us to look back and say that things were horrifically wrong, but hindsight is always 20/20. We have the luxury of not living directly in those times. We're armchair quarterbacking them. Not one of us really was there or really knows what those days were directly like in order to say for sure.

Also, understand that the standards we're trying to judge those people by? People in the future, a hundred years out who will live by very different standards than you and I do will look back and apply that same kind of reasoning to us. What sort of barbarian will you look like to them? Is that fair to you? Obviously there are several people here who consider themselves the very pinnacle of morality for all time, but you can fall just as quickly when your descendants look back on you one day.
edit on 17-4-2018 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 17 2018 @ 10:00 AM
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I'd like to throw in my two cents here. First let me say that I enjoyed the read, and I'm new. I agree wholeheartedly with the op and like you I thought surely something could be done. Unfortunately, I believe that while asking the question of what can be done is healthy and responsible. It in fact further solidifies the inherent issue that your trying to solve. Inequality exists. It does not need quantified. It is my belief then that by establishing a moral superiority over said inequality is further perpetuating the inequality itself. So to the question of what can be done? 1) find the bright spots of humanity and focus there. The question of what is the problem focuses on exactly that, the problems. I don't see how measuring everyone's suffering can cause enlightenment here ( I'm not the sharpest knife so maybe I just can't see it) 2) strive for a framework of even playing fields that are focused on the now. Again I can't see the value of digging into an area we cannot control. I don't own a time machine, it cannot be undone regardless of personal opinion. (I didn't get a form to fill out on who when and where I would be born. Our duty is to strive to make the best of the hand we are delt.) Should the current sociology be examined and questioned? Sure within the confines of "what can we do today about that". Calling out what we see today not how we got here. 3) educate the public on how to navigate this society. (Concepts like rights and responsibilities, the value of sacrifice, the dangers of blame, overcoming adversity, human logic flaws, and my personal favorite self worth outside of comparison.) Due to the nature of ego and cognitive dissonance. This issue is really a future generations fix. All we can do as far as I see is create accountability for actions and lead by example.



posted on Apr, 17 2018 @ 11:59 AM
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originally posted by: yuppa



originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: burdman30ott6

It is foolish to assume we can just "move on" from genocide and leave it unacknowledged. It is downright cruel to continue the abuse by disproportionately punishing crime in poor black neighborhoods (for example) throwing tax money into prisons rather than education.


The indians killed off a previous people here.They got karmic retribution. and black crime seems off due to their large number and poor raising.


This ought to be framed:

"What an unapologetic racist believes"

What is white crime due to?




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