Truth and Reconciliation in America

a reply to: TonyS

This is why I deeply fear a revolution. Even if we take out the TPTB, it will probably devolve into a multi sided civil war. Our country is filled with too many people with their own agendas and plus there's far too many regional differences.

For examples, conservatives of the Mid West and the South are not the same as the ones in Utah.

Meanwhile there's a stark divide between anti-TPTB leftists and other leftists.

Like it or not the TPTB are the only ones keeping our country together.

a reply to: TonyS

Yes, I know they want revenge.

We need to tell them no. There is no point in getting revenge for things no one alive today did to them.

And it will get bloody, but at this point, I suppose the sooner it gets bloody then, the better. We might as well have it all out so the ones left can go forward. SA is screwed. They have no chance at all.

a reply to: zosimov

Actually there is proactive work going on in a sense. Its called "racial intermarriage". And for all I know, it may happen at a high enough rate to more or less resolve the problem.

I rather doubt it, but............it might.

I can't upload pictures, but use the search term "Will Hurd"; he's my Congressional Representative. He calls himself a "Republican" but votes with the Dems about a third of the time. Story for another day.

Take a good hard look at his picture...............he qualifies as "Black" and historically thats due to the old "one drop" rule wherein 1 drop of black blood rendered a person a black person back in the days of the Old South.

a reply to: ketsuko

My greatest concern is if we really have a revolution it will spiral out of control to the point where we might have revenge killings you and TonyS just described which will turn a to full blown civil war.

This is exactly why the Syrian civil war started. Many Sunnis started launching revenge attacks against the Shia due to Assad, who is Shia, oppressing them.

a reply to: starwarsisreal

Like it or not the TPTB are the only ones keeping our country together.

You are joking right?

a reply to: TonyS

Sad but true.

We caved and got my husband DNA tested so we can hopefully prove his heritage for our son's sake going forward. It's not a good time to be straight white men.

a reply to: seeker1963

My point is if you take them out, then there will be multiple factions fighting over the control of the nation.

For example, the anti TPTB leftists have very different visions of how things should go. For example, some of them are anarchists and they aren't keen on restoring the Republic.

a reply to: zosimov

One is the past, one is the present. As I said, you look at modern times through a modern lens, but using the same lens on the past presents a view which wasn't accurate to those times in any way. It's easy to sit here in 2018 and say that America's treatment of the indians was atrocious... but then again we're not living in a country with pioneers, life expectancies that top out at 40 years old, a huge swath of land for the taking, a predominantly agricultural society, etc. In this tech heavy world of wealth and prosperity, slavery and conquering doesn't make sense... in the 1800s, however, yeah, they were issues that absolutely maximized this country's potential and changed the game from one of survival to one of thriving.

a reply to: starwarsisreal

Like it or not the TPTB are the only ones keeping our country together.

You are correct, the country is Balkanized along many different lines. Political/Racial/Religious, etc.

It might be the case the only thing keeping the country together is..............(tongue in cheek), THE TAX CODE!

I don't fear a full blown revolution; I sort of see this thing quietly disassembling by way of reassertion of States Rights and "Local Control". You see that in Cali with the Sanctuary States/Cities laws; thumbing their noses at the Feds. The Feds are near in danger of losing oversight/sovereignty over some states and localities as things stand now.

I've actually read articles by educated Progressives to the effect that after the 2016 election Progressives/Leftists need to give up the idea of pulling the knuckle dragging, bible and gun carrying bunch along with them into the 21st Century and instead, pursue their interests in new "City States", much like Singapore. Sounds like they're about ready to turn their backs on fly-over country altogether and go their own way. And the irony of this is.........THEY are now pushing for reassertion of "States Rights"!

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Most people also have an overly romanticized idea of what Native American life and societies were like too. They warred and enslaved and were brutal to each other and the colonists.

Both sides had blood on their hands.

a reply to: ketsuko

Meh, buy him a Burka!

a reply to: ketsuko

This is exactly what a more careful approach would avoid! There are examples of countries (Rwanda is a good one) that have overcome atrocities and worked toward reconciliation that we can follow.

When I say "we," I don't mean you or I. I am talking abou the government making public and official declarations of wrongdoing and developing committies to address the problem with local community leaders. After the atrocities done to the Jewish, the world made sure to compensate for the crimes done. Maybe we can too? (NOT through reparations but through righting current wrongs and through outreach and just listening to people!).

a reply to: TonyS

Of course, they may get a rude awakening when their farmer serfs don't want to feed them anymore. They don't have the ability to exert control over nearly enough land area to feed their cities as they are now.

Most of the backward areas can handily starve them out if we wished.

a reply to: ketsuko

They did, and I did a lot of research about massacres on both sides before writing this. They WERE horrific all around.

But what would you do to defend your land from invading forces? I know I would never do some of the disgusting things done by both sides, but I can't say I wouldn't fight to defend my turf.

a reply to: zosimov

This came up (partly) in a class I was teaching today, specifically in reference to Australia's "Sorry Day" which is about the stealing of aboriginal children to raise as "civilized." The intent is noble, the actions are honorable, but the practice... has been somewhat co-opted by the "don't care" crowd and is in danger of being trivialized.

Part of this may be due to the diversity of the culture. We are not all Jewish (for example) so the concept of admitting our wrongs and asking those whom we have maligned or harmed in some way to forgive us (which happens during a ten day period that begins on Rosh Hashanah) -- in that culture, you are "healed/comforted/brought into righteousness" by everyone doing the same kind of action.

So by itself, I think that there's probably no ceremony or action or process we could do in our diverse culture that would act as a "mending ritual."

So what might be alternatives? Think of our interest in media. Media pieces about these ills that ALSO show people discussing the issues (often times simply letting the other person actually talk without interrupting to say "But not all..." or "but my people..." is both liberating and healing.) I think this is where the arts step in.

From poetry to music to video to a thousand other things (including video games), I think some sort of way forward is possible. But we have to think out of the box now -- ways that satisfied us in the past are not as important to us today.



(13 minute film I showed to class on ritual in history, mentioning some of these processes)

a reply to: zosimov

We have to educate ourselves about what happened. I was not part of the time period, my parents immigrated here when they were younger and they came from countries where slavery of Africans/other cultures didn't occur. I have no guilt. I feel no responsibility.

However, as part of this country and the government that I am forced to live under (am grateful to be a citizen of my country) I do feel it is my responsibility to understand the history and why people are hurt, and have been taken advantage of, and why the majority of say uninformed/angry/white people feel so hostile towards the Indigenous people.

I have been taking an Aboriginal Studies course and it is mind blowing of the injustices to the Indigenous people. There is no doubt about it: they were taken advantage of, mistreated, abused, used and if they didn't assimilate and become good Canadians, with the same beliefs/dress/language then they were basically exterminated. Case after case after case. The course I am taking is not one sided - it is all there to back up with research, not hard to find.

I think what we can do as people of today is to understand the knowledge held at that time, which was unfortunate - but it is what it was. Just as today we think we know everything, but they are still discovering parts of the body that no one knew existed, such as the recent posts about the stomach organ, the Mesentery. Using this as an example medicine will be changed, textbooks changed, medications and techniques discovered. But we have done the best with what we know. It's a poor example I know, but one that many members of ATS can understand and relate to for the moment.

And so, my thought is if we can just understand the past, and be aware, as well as admit what happened is the place to start. And I don't think the majority of rational Indigenous people want us to grovel or feel ashamed - they are not idiots and unfair - but they want acknowledgement of the past and they want to be part of the rest of our country. There is a huge divide between Indigenous peoples and the rest of Canadians / Americans. Unfortunately, the main population of non-Indigenous people think our Indigenous people are whiners/slackers/lazy - that is not true.

One must remember that our Indigenous people had their lands ripped out from under their feet, treaties were made without pure intentions, and by implementing the residential schools they wiped out whole generations and destroyed their cultural standing. Children were taken from families and reserves, placed into abusive institutions where they were abused, and many murdered. The ones that did return home were no longer treated as Indigenous as they no longer knew how to speak their former language, no longer knew how to practice their faith, no longer knew how to relate to their bands, and yet they weren't part of "white" society. These children belonged to no one. They weren't raised with one culture over another and didn't know where they belonged. They no longer had the nurturing, nor familial relationships to guide them in life. Alcohol had been provided to the Indigenous people to weaken them. So, in the end you have broken families, broken cultural communities (previously they were all one unit living and working together for everyone's benefit) and they lost the next generation. What you end up with is a vicious cycle of broken people that don't know how to fix it, how to reclaim their past and move onwards.

Interesting tidbit for all those who claim the Indigenous people take handouts and waste their money: In the 80's young people started going to university and when they left many were now lawyers, others were specialists in administrative, as well as other high level jobs. These people then went back to their bands and now worked with their Council members where they were often working hand in hand to reap the benefits of government monies and knowing how to play the game as any other corporate business, many profited personally. These are the members you see riding their fancy new trucks, new house, all the toys while other members of the community still have dirt floors, no running water, no money for medicine. The same government mentality of profit for personal gain has infected many Indigenous communities. Part of that is due to the Colonial mindset of separating Indigenous members from each other, making sure they lived in separate houses, spoke only the country language, no longer practiced their spiritual beliefs - and, on top of that they don't know how to fix the huge tear in their culture.

Reparations are being made but in my opinion that is between the government as an entity and not me personally. I will do my utmost to inform myself about my fellow Indigenous Canadians and treat them as I want to be treated - that is all they want for the most part. I will respect their beliefs, practices and support them as human beings. But, as I do not expect them to pay for the government taking advantage of me (very poor example I know), I do not expect to pay them for what the government did to them. I can have sympathy, compassion and love, but I think the biggest thing is to educate ourselves about the truth that the government and schools have hidden from us so that we can say, "Yes, I understand, yes it was wrong."

I like your post and the replies. This is information that already will make an impact. You have shone the light on darkness. And we can educate others by simply pointing out facts.

a reply to: Byrd

Here's the thing though.

Just letting some random person come up to me and lecture me about things I never did rubs me the wrong way.

Such a thing implies collective guilt. I carry no guilt for what people did who are long and who only shared my skin color. I might as well let all Jews lecture me because somewhere in my line I hail from Pennsylvania Dutch which means I am at some point related to Germans, meaning I might be related to Nazis even though my people were hear before all that happened.

People with racial grievances have been grieving and airing those grievances for longer than I have been alive, and I have been required to watch that art (Roots for one) or read it (Roots again; Cry the Beloved Country [SA]) or listen to it (Jessie Jackson in college) US History Since 1867 (was taught by a black prof along racial lines in college). I went to a teachers conference where I was one of maybe 2 white teachers and required to listen to all the black teachers go on and on about how difference the black experience of growing up was from any white experience so I couldn't possibly understand it ... even though having grown up poor, I had lived that way more than they thought or would admit.

When does it end? How much do I have to hear? What amount of chest beating anguish will satisfy?

Don't they know that everyone suffers in life?

originally posted by: Byrd

So by itself, I think that there's probably no ceremony or action or process we could do in our diverse culture that would act as a "mending ritual."

So what might be alternatives? Think of our interest in media. Media pieces about these ills that ALSO show people discussing the issues (often times simply letting the other person actually talk without interrupting to say "But not all..." or "but my people..." is both liberating and healing.) I think this is where the arts step in.

From poetry to music to video to a thousand other things (including video games), I think some sort of way forward is possible. But we have to think out of the box now -- ways that satisfied us in the past are not as important to us today.

I really love what you said here. Absolutely one way (and maybe the best!) we connect with each other and learn about the many cultures and experiences America shares.

a reply to: ketsuko

Agreed. The Noble Savage is a load of nonsense created on a Hollywood writer's desk 100 years ago.

a reply to: ketsuko

Ha, ha, you're about the third or fourth person to make that comment to me. You might want to spend a few weeks in farm country! Farmers desperately NEED the cities to buy their goods.

Actually, farming in the modern US is one of the more bizarre pursuits I've ever witnessed. At least from the standpoint of economics. From what I can tell.........the whole thing is a sort of highly choreographed and Government influenced shell game.......incentives to plant X, tax incentives to plant Y, cash paid to "not plant", "futures" to hedge against price fluctuations. You have to get a degree in Agricultural Business and Economics to be a farmer today. Put another way.....modern farmers are nowhere near "dummies" and "rubes".