Russia and Syria block chemical weapons inspectors access to the site in Douma

a reply to: Xcalibur254

If you look to the facts, HOW are they going to determine a production source to a nerve agent that is not declared or in any sort of registry?

Russia is a member of the same international and accredited watchdog groups as us that are against the proliferation of chemical weapons. We did not disclose any existing nerve agents in any of those accords that were not listed like Russia did not when they were signed.

The scientists analysing the samples are saying this nerve agent was one such "un fingerprinted" nerve agent not listed in international databases.

We have not confirmed the nature of the nerve agents production family or its production source. It may be able to be manufactured in a garage, or may require specific state resources. We dont know ANY of that when it comes to this attack.

We do know about the nature of the nerve agent we say it is, but somehow this nerve agent is different and doesnt coincide with seen effects...but its definitely the one we THINK it is. Right.

We have been sold on "expert analysis" of actual expert findings. The actual scientists doing the work found and say that maybe Russia didnt do it. Or at least the known facts can not point a finger to Russia anymore than they can to Canada or anyone else.

Those same scientists doing the actual analysis also say it could be BZ, which is a nerve agent held by NATO member states.

And the US, France and the UK not providing proof BEFORE the attack is any insult to any free thinking individual who isn't brainwashed by the MSM.

a reply to: tadaman

It is in the registry. In 2015 Iran made five samples and submitted them to the OPCW. Yet the only country known to have produced Novichok on a production scale are the USSR.

We also don't know what other information the governments involved have. Whatever intelligence Britain may have though was enough to get pretty much everyone on board for sanctions against Russia immediately. So there must be something more than just the fact that Novichok has a Russian origin.

a reply to: Xcalibur254

Correction

the only country known to have produced Novichok on a production scale are the USSR. 

The only country known to have produced Novichok on a production scale was the Ukraine under the USSR. They surrendered those facilities and stock piles to us long ago.

This nerve agent ISNT in the registry. It is NOT Novichok. The results will show it is NOT in the same production family as Novichok since that nerve agent is fatal and the one used in the UK was more benign.

The targeted organs or affected biological functions are different. That means its probably a different nerve agent all together. They can vary on delivery or method of absorption into the body but the delivered damage is the same or similar within a nerve agents production family.

a reply to: tadaman

Not Ukraine, Uzbekistan. But even that isn't the whole truth. Novichok was also produced in a lab south of Moscow.

The agent used in this attack was in the Novichok family. Porton Down identified it as such. The OPCW confirmed it as well. The only country saying it is anything different is Russia. But the source Russia used for that claim is saying that Porton Down's analysis is correct.

So why should we believe Lavrov when three sources, two of which are independent (one of whom called Russia out for lying), are saying the agent was Novichok?

The Russian narrative has even changed since Lavrov got called out by Spiez Lab. Now they're claiming the report says the agent was both BZ and A-234, which is one of the Novichok variants.

My guess at this point is that the analysis will show A-234 but no BZ. (It should be noted that A-234 is not the most deadly form of Novichok. That would be A-232, Novichok-5.) And once that result comes back Russia will claim there's been a cover-up.

Like I've said a number of times over the past few weeks, Russia has pulled out their MH17 handbook. They're doing everything they can to muddy the waters so any result that comes out against them will be questioned.

a reply to: Xcalibur254

MH17 handbook

I dont know what that has to do with any of this. I get that Russia said things about who was responsible that were absurd but I dont follow things that I dont believe to be true, so I couldn't tell you much about the MH17 flight. Personally, I think it just crashed in a very mundane way.

At this point I think its important to mention that we are all arguing about "he said /she said" with no verifiable evidence shown by reputable sources proving one claim or the other,

Without evidence to recent accusations:

One side has bombed a possible crime scene to an atrocity against humanity.

One side has expelled diplomats and fanned the flames of perpetual proxy war.

One side has maintained a rather poor performance (going on almost 2 years now) of just absolutely belligerent intent on framing Russia for whatever the hell they can, whatever the hell way they can do it,

Syrian intervention has been called for internally by everyone involved so as to secure a natural gas pipeline and was never a secret of anyone's involvement.

I am not worried about European energy prices. I am not worried about what the US will do with such a large and awkward army in the age of state sponsored terrorism. I am not worried about the Syrian people, since once we pull out of their country, their civil war will end shortly after and they will begin the healing process.

Assad may not even make it very long anyways. He is mortal you know. If the war ends the Syrians will be free to rebuild their country in the spirit of their own design. No one can argue that being a puppet of anyone would be superior to being independent and free to choose.

Russia has an economic interest in Syria. We have a militaristic interest in protecting Europe's economic interests in Syria.

Same old song and dance. NO.

a reply to: Xcalibur254

The agent used in this attack was in the Novichok family. Porton Down identified it as such. The OPCW confirmed it as well.

No they haven't. Stop peddling this lie.

a reply to: Wide-Eyes

So a representative from Porton Down didn't say that the agent had be identified as being part of the Novichok family but they couldn't identify the point of origin?

originally posted by: tadaman
The only country known to have produced Novichok on a production scale was the Ukraine under the USSR. They surrendered those facilities and stock piles to us long ago.

I think you are mistaken unless you are able to link to a credible source. Novichok was produced at the Russian facility at Shikhany, or so it is commonly understood. Or, are you now trying to implicate Ukraine in all of this?

a reply to: paraphi

A minor detail. Ukraine or not, Ukraine and possible others aside, ALL stockpiles and facilities were surrendered for inspection and destruction. The USSR doesnt exist anymore. I may be wrong.

Are YOU claiming otherwise? That these stockpiles and facilities were not surrendered by former Soviet satellite countries? (located outside of present day Russia) Moscow COULD make it I guess. So could anyone now.

Please excuse my ignorance of where it was ultimately surrendered. My point still stands that it WAS ALL surrendered.

Also, please link the source with evidence proving its Novichok. That is still in debate at the moment unless I am mistaken.

Didn´t read any comments, i hope somebody mentioned that this is only the view of the NATO west, that russia and syria hinder the OPCW to reach the alleged gas attack spot.

Because. somehow, as the OPCW is on the way to do their investigations, "moderate rebels", western funded beheaders and jihadists, show up on the scene again, to fight.

Clashes underway in Douma between Syria’s National Guard and militants More: tass.com...

Such a coincidence. That was the real reason why the OPCW guys were told not to go to the alleged attack site. By the U.N Department of Safety and Security (UNDSS), as you can read in the OPCW statement:
OPCW Statement pdf
And it were not the russians or syrians.
You can read in that statement that the syrian government even invited the OPCW´s FFM team to visit the alleged attack site:
"On the same day, the Syrian delegation submitted to the Secretariat a note verbale requesting the FFM to be dispatched".

We people in the west are told lies, by the wests NATO, the wests warmongerers, the wests politicians, the wests MSM, by the sycophants of the anglo-american axis of evil like France as a good example, or the wannabe NATO miniature states that are full of hate on Russia etc.

Or germany, that only couldn´t take part because our military is a joke right now, we would not be able to attack anything, without flying helicopter and planes. That was the only reason US agent Merkel didn´t send german military, side by side with the yanks, the brits, the frogeaters, to illegally attack the souverain state Syria(UNO Charta). But she said that she welcomed the attacks, of course she didn´t say illegal attacks, illegal according to international laws.

Then we have that RT report about a planned false flag attack, from 17.03.2018:


And before you say now:
Russian propaganda.... here is something from the "U"S, somebody send a reporter on-site. And he was able to talk about the people there. Maybe you rather want to listen to him:


The anglo-american NATO west with it´s willing vassals are the terrorists again, in that Syria scenario. Like in every other bigger world "politics" scenario since 9/11!

But good to know that the people don´t believe that crap anymore, it´s only the vassal polticians and the vassals MSM that welcomes the terror attacks of the NATO west, but the majority of the people in the west are against that terror reign, based on lies and false flags, for profits of the anglo-americans, but not us not island europeans. The people now have the chance to search their own reports, and don´t have to listen only to that warmongerer propaganda of the warmongering and anglo-american ruled NATO west!

The people are not that stupid as the foreign controlled politicians and the foreign controlled MSM want to make you believe, we, the majority of the people, don´t support these liars anymore! More than 80% of the germans are against the renewed cold war, the anti-russia propaganda, the anglo-american terror acts against the international laws. The left, the right, everybody is against that terror reign of the anglo-american ruled NATO/west against the false flags like that Skripal story or the alleged gas attacks of Assad, which are only good to stop Assad(himself) from winning. Lies and propaganda that is only good for alleged reasons of the NATO west to illegally attack foreign, souverain countries, nations. Like the world knows since Iraq´s "WMD`s". Remember that lie, anglo-american axis of evil? And now you play obvisiously the same dirty game, just this time it´s Syria. And you think nobody notices all that!

Then ask the people, not the governments. Read the comments of the people, that are not, like almost all of "our" politicians and almost all of "our" journalists, members of the Atlantikbrücke, "U"S ruled:
Atlantikbrücke e.V.

Not germans may not know many of the names(and there are hundreds more), but one of these names of foreign controlled "german" politicians you all will know:
Angela Merkel, Bundeskanzler

And then are around 80% of "our" journalists and media agencies controlled by the overseas.

But even all that seems not to help anymore, the majority of the population in western europe is against that anglo-american ruled terror reign, based on lies and false flags, dirty tricks and empty and broken promises. Operated by old rich white farts, old cold warriors that were sad when the first cold war almost ended. They come alive now again like Zombies, from their death.

But the warmongerers lost the minds and hearts of the majority of the people, which they maybe had, in parts, in the first cold war. Nobody buys that "good ones" role anymore, not after so bad performed false flags and lies, not after Iraq, not after the Maidan, etc, etc!

So, will someone (reasonable and unbiased) kindly point out to me the incontrovertible evidence put on show before the missile strikes that proved beyond doubt that Assad gassed his own people, I can't seem to find it.

So, will someone (reasonable and unbiased) kindly point out to me the incontrovertible evidence put on show that Russia used a chemical weapon called Novichok against two of its own citizens currently residing in the UK in an attempt to kill them (even though they had expressed a desire to return to Russia). I can't seem to find it.

On both instances, all I can find is hearsay, forceful conjecture, and an msm drumbeat that insists their readers and viewers accept the narrative they peddle.

Not a single one of us knows in absolute certainty of the facts for both cases. Our only aid is our own prejudice in choosing to believe what is being claimed, and that does not make us a good and reasonable jurist.

Shulgin extended his gratitude to the OPCW investigators for their work in Douma and called on the organization’s executive council to adopt a document supporting their efforts.

and:

Meanwhile, the OPCW investigators are expected to start their work in Douma on Monday. They met with Syrian officials on Sunday to discuss the details of their work.

Source: www.rt.com...

RT is going full propaganda. These are some of the boldest lies I have seen from any nation. Russia is already thanking the OPCW for their work in Douma, giving the impression that they've already been allowed in. They're also brushing off their disallowal of the investigators into the area as a meeting to "discuss the details of their work".

I don't want the US involved in any more foreign wars either, but Russia is lying through their teeth.

a reply to: tadaman

I dont know what that has to do with any of this. I get that Russia said things about who was responsible that were absurd but I dont follow things that I dont believe to be true, so I couldn't tell you much about the MH17 flight. Personally, I think it just crashed in a very mundane way.

I really hope you got MH17 confused with MH370. Because there is no way MH17 crashed in a mundane way.

a reply to: Xcalibur254

I really dont care either way.

a reply to: tadaman

You don't care that 298 people lost their lives and then a world power not only lied about their involvement but tried to shift the blame to pretty much everyone and anyone that wasn't them?

a reply to: xstealth

is this the same OPCW that refused to include in their Skripol report that 'another' poison was found in the evidence that wasnt Novochok?

a reply to: Xcalibur254

Listen, if this conversation turns into another "who shot another airliner down" thread I am out. Stop selling shoulder mounted AA missiles to anyone with the cash or credit line. Thats all I have to say about that.

I avoid those threads for a reason and there is, as I said, a gross ignorance on my part about the subject because I avoid it like the plague. Like switching channels when the MASH theme song starts playing.

Also please spare me the heartless monster accusations while advocating that we send "love and freedom" bombs to places both foreign and far removed from the cause of self defense or even RIGHTEOUS defense of others.

Its all Bullisht

a reply to: Agit8dChop

According to who? Spiez Lab, the lab cited by Lavrov, stated that there's no reason to question Porton Down's analysis. PD stated the agent was only Novichok. Furthermore, Spiez has made it sound like they didn't even receive a sample.

The funny thing is thar the Russian narrative was that Spiez only found BZ. Then right around the time Spiez pretty much called out Lavrov for being a liar suddenly everyone that was toeing the Russian line started claiming Spiez found Novichok and BZ. But Spiez never said anything of the sort.

Curious how that happened.

a reply to: Xcalibur254

I'm not sure one way or the other what happened here yet,

all I know is

the UK stated only Russia could make/hold Novochok - not true
the UK refuse to release their evidence to Russia
Russia states there is more than 1 toxin involved
PD states what was used - but cant say where it came from

only a fool will make a conclusion from that