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The function of the Great Pyramid of Giza

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posted on Apr, 15 2018 @ 01:39 PM
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originally posted by: kborissov

AS LEAST, you need to adjust this statement for the presence of magnesium found in the limestone. Refer to this paper which is also reference in my article.
[12] M.W. Barsoum, A. Ganguly, and G. Hug. ”Microstructural Evidence of Reconstituted Limestone blocks in the Great Pyramids of Egypt, Journal of the American Ceramic Society”. Year: 2006.


That is a dreadfully bad paper.

And no, I don't need to adjust. If you read the papers I linked, it did mention variable amounts of magnesium. HOWEVER... to be limestone, the primary formula needs to be calcium carbonate. High-magnesium limestone (called dolomite) comes from the Suez area, not Giza.


I cannot find another paper which shows exact percentage of Magnesium in the limestone but let me know if interested I will look further.

No greater than 15% and it's in the form of magnesium oxide.


Magnesium has some unbound electrons. Its conductance is generally poorer compared to copper but mind you, the materials which have high conductivity could not be used instead of limestone, period! as this would result in a very narrow skin depth for the electron flow at high frequency causing excessive heat and melting.


Any technology great enough to light up a pyramid like that implies modern (or better) electrical components. We run high voltage through wires all the time, including enough power to light up an entire city or state. It requires a good insulator around the cables. We don't blow out our high power transmission lines or even melt them. So if the people who built the pyramids had that kind of technology, we'd find traces of the copper and the insulators all over the place.

...even if thieves came in and robbed the copper.



...and... wait a sec. You are claiming you have a PhD in electrical engineering?? What sort of PhD doesn't know this stuff from the get-go? And look at the papers you accepted as "evidence" of your idea -- come on, man -- that wouldn't pass in any Masters' level paper. At the very least, a PhD would have read more than the title and the abstract of papers like the one on electrical properties of limestone and noted that it was for geoexploration and any electrical engineer would be aware of the amounts of electricity involved.

Your research and PhD should have immediately led you to discount Dunn... but you swallowed that one hook, line, and sinker. "Physics for Scientists and Engineers, Volume 2" - that's an introductory textbook. And Cadman - you didn't even notice the hydraulic problems with his model? Engineers howled with laughter over that one but you just accepted it without question?

Good gad, sir.

That's the first thing we learn in research. That and the difference between a hypothesis and a theory.





edit on 15-4-2018 by Byrd because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 15 2018 @ 03:33 PM
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originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: kborissov

AS LEAST, you need to adjust this statement for the presence of magnesium found in the limestone. Refer to this paper which is also reference in my article.
[12] M.W. Barsoum, A. Ganguly, and G. Hug. ”Microstructural Evidence of Reconstituted Limestone blocks in the Great Pyramids of Egypt, Journal of the American Ceramic Society”. Year: 2006.

That is a dreadfully bad paper.
And no, I don't need to adjust.

Sure you do! high school kids can explain you why.

If you read the papers I linked, it did mention variable amounts of magnesium.
it is not even an article. Some sort of online general explanation which talks about conduction. As I explained more variables need to be accounted for. The paper referenced in my article is from the research institute analyzing the condition under some of those processes, you better use that kind of sources.
HOWEVER... to be limestone, the primary formula needs to be calcium carbonate. High-magnesium limestone (called dolomite) comes from the Suez area, not Giza.

it is silly of your to claim that limestone used on Giza projects does not contain Magnesium. when it is a common knowledge



I cannot find another paper which shows exact percentage of Magnesium in the limestone but let me know if interested I will look further.

No greater than 15% and it's in the form of magnesium oxide.


Magnesium has some unbound electrons. Its conductance is generally poorer compared to copper but mind you, the materials which have high conductivity could not be used instead of limestone, period! as this would result in a very narrow skin depth for the electron flow at high frequency causing excessive heat and melting.
Any technology great enough to light up a pyramid like that implies modern (or better) electrical components.

and by better you mean exactly what? More conductivity is not better, I explained it to you why but you again brushed that under the carpet.

We run high voltage through wires all the time, including enough power to light up an entire city or state. It requires a good insulator around the cables. We don't blow out our high power transmission lines or even melt them. So if the people who built the pyramids had that kind of technology, we'd find traces of the copper and the insulators all over the place.

copper is not going to work at high frequency (and that was the last time I said that), the technology used millennia would never looked like technology this days

...and... wait a sec. You are claiming you have a PhD in electrical engineering?? What sort of PhD doesn't know this stuff from the get-go? And look at the papers you accepted as "evidence" of your idea -- come on, man -- that wouldn't pass in any Masters' level paper. At the very least, a PhD would have read more than the title and the abstract of papers like the one on electrical properties of limestone and noted that it was for geoexploration and any electrical engineer would be aware of the amounts of electricity involved.

those are all cheap shots at me and my PhD, I do not need to comment on this.

Your research and PhD should have immediately led you to discount Dunn...

Why is that?

but you swallowed that one hook, line, and sinker. "Physics for Scientists and Engineers, Volume 2" - that's an introductory textbook. And Cadman - you didn't even notice the hydraulic problems with his model? Engineers howled with laughter over that one but you just accepted it without question?

and even more cheap shots...

Good gad, sir.

That's the first thing we learn in research. That and the difference between a hypothesis and a theory.

you may be surprised but that is the most intelegent thing you said in this very long post



posted on Apr, 15 2018 @ 05:24 PM
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AS LEAST, you need to adjust this statement for the presence of magnesium found in the limestone. Refer to this paper which is also reference in my article.
[12] M.W. Barsoum, A. Ganguly, and G. Hug. ”Microstructural Evidence of Reconstituted Limestone blocks in the Great Pyramids of Egypt, Journal of the American Ceramic Society”. Year: 2006.

That is a dreadfully bad paper.

And no, I don't need to adjust.

Sure you do! high school kids can explain you why.

Actually, a high school student couldn't explain. However, if you refer to the source I linked you will see that it does include information about magnesium content in limestone.



it is not even an article. Some sort of online general explanation which talks about conduction.


...which was exactly what you were talking about.


it is silly of your to claim that limestone used on Giza projects does not contain Magnesium. when it is a common knowledge


You didn't take geology, then. All limestone is not the same. It varies wildly in chemical composition and structure and properties. That's how we can tell where rocks came from. The high magnesium content limestone comes from much farther north... and you can google that to confirm.


Magnesium has some unbound electrons. Its conductance is generally poorer compared to copper but mind you, the materials which have high conductivity could not be used instead of limestone, period! as this would result in a very narrow skin depth for the electron flow at high frequency causing excessive heat and melting.


Well, since I looked it up to confirm, magnesium oxide (present in limestone) does NOT conduct electricity except in a molten state. quick reference page but there are other sources


copper is not going to work at high frequency (and that was the last time I said that), the technology used millennia would never looked like technology this days

Limestone ain't gonna work, either. Furthermore, limestone isn't a pure material so it obviously won't transmit frequencies reliably.


those are all cheap shots at me and my PhD, I do not need to comment on this.

Actually, they aren't.

They are legitimate concerns about your ability to understand and research and to locate information. That was one of the earliest courses we took at both Master's and PhD levels and every single paper we wrote hammered at those points. And to look at sources and not just lazily read a title and assume that the sources were good.


Why is that? (discount Dunn's material)

Well, gosh... the sheer implausibility of the design, for one. You're an electrical engineer. Why didn't you notice that?

Seriously. Like the problems with Cadman's hydraulic design.

You claim to be a PhD electrical engineer. Yet you write an article and make a "thought experiment" discovery without doing basic research on the subject. You unquestioningly accept statements (like the "center of Earth's mass" location) and don't even check these to see how the measurement was obtained or whether it was fabricated.

I assume you wrote this in all seriousness and for the purpose of answering a problem in Egyptology... a field you know nothing about and a field that you did not research. The result is a piece of fiction rather than a conference paper that would make an impact on the field.

And yes, as your peer, I'm perfectly within my rights to be critical. PhD's are very very very hard to get (and expensive.) You should demonstrate the critical thinking and sharp research that is required to get the degree in the first place... instead of dancing around hard questions and waving articles without checking primary and secondary sources.


edit on 15-4-2018 by Byrd because: (confounded quotes)



posted on Apr, 15 2018 @ 08:59 PM
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The Lyrid meteor showers have a 60 year pattern that has been around since ancient times.
Eratosthenes was credited with using base 60 for global mapping around 235 BC, but the Chinese were credited for the discovery of the Lyrid meteor showers in 687 BC.
So maybe there was some secret hidden math done in the time of the great pyramids based on the cycle of the Lyrids?
You would flunk your high school science test with ideas like this, but they are still worth thinking about.



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 03:13 PM
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a reply to: vinifalou

Mixing electrical sparks and hydrogen in a giant chamber under the pyramid..
what could go wrong?

Kev



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 03:29 PM
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originally posted by: Byrd


[12] M.W. Barsoum, A. Ganguly, and G. Hug. ”Microstructural Evidence of Reconstituted Limestone blocks in the Great Pyramids of Egypt, Journal of the American Ceramic Society”. Year: 2006.

That is a dreadfully bad paper.

Mind you. This paper is published in one of the best journals in the USA, which is a peer reviewed journal. The paper was extensively reviewed by people who dedicated their lives to material science and accepted. That tells me a lot about publication and not your minuscule opinion.



it is silly of your to claim that limestone used on Giza projects does not contain Magnesium. when it is a common knowledge
You didn't take geology, then. All limestone is not the same. It varies wildly in chemical composition and structure and properties. That's how we can tell where rocks came from. The high magnesium content limestone comes from much farther north... and you can google that to confirm.


You are denying obvious. You can have a look on the first figure in the reference [13] in my paper which shows impedance of the limestone decreases (even before you reach the water region) as a function of frequency, this is due to the metal presence in the Limestone. Yes, the limestone can be different, I never said opposite.

Well, since I looked it up to confirm, magnesium oxide (present in limestone) does NOT conduct electricity except in a molten state. quick reference page but there are other sources


Here you go again. Do me a favor, talk to Marzouk M. Bekhit, and Saad A Khalil who are from the national research center of Cairo and did research of conductivity of limestone at high frequency and published the paper "Electrical Properties of Moist Limestone Samples In The Frequency Range 1Hz-10^7 Hz From Abu Rawash Area” in Australian Journal of Basic and Applied Sciences which is another peer reviewed journal where prior to publications the articles are extensively reviewed by PhDs and other qualified people. Convince them that the research work they did on conductivity of Limestone at high frequency is garbage because you know better.


Why is that? (discount Dunn's material)
Well, gosh... the sheer implausibility of the design, for one. You're an electrical engineer. Why didn't you notice that?
Seriously. Like the problems with Cadman's hydraulic design. You claim to be a PhD electrical engineer. Yet you write an article and make a "thought experiment" discovery without doing basic research on the subject. You unquestioningly accept statements (like the "center of Earth's mass" location) and don't even check these to see how the measurement was obtained or whether it was fabricated. I assume you wrote this in all seriousness and for the purpose of answering a problem in Egyptology... a field you know nothing about and a field that you did not research. The result is a piece of fiction rather than a conference paper that would make an impact on the field. And yes, as your peer, I'm perfectly within my rights to be critical. PhD's are very very very hard to get (and expensive.) You should demonstrate the critical thinking and sharp research that is required to get the degree in the first place... instead of dancing around hard questions and waving articles without checking primary and secondary sources.



It is already a second long post from you where 80% of all text is in reference to my PhD. I do not talk about my PhD as much as you talk about my PhD. Please stop it. it is annoying.



posted on Apr, 16 2018 @ 06:30 PM
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a reply to: kborissov

A single Hertz is one cycle per second, about the frequency Eratosthenes would have observed as the sun lit the bottom of a deep well at noon. 10^7 Hertz is a shortwave frequency used by Ham radio operators in the 1950's. Did the ancients correctly foresee humanity still using their system 5000 years later?



The MgO cold cathode is a new source of electrons with possible applications in various types of electron tubes. It consists of a thin layer of porous magnesium oxide on a nickel base. A strong electric field that exists across the layer while in operation is believed to produce the electron emission from the surface. Evidence supports the theory that avalanche multiplication occurs in the layer. This cathode glows with a pale blue luminescence during operation. The velocity distribution of the emitted electrons shows a peak at 13 electron volts. The outer surface potential has been measured and found to be of the order of 150 volts with respect to the nickel base. The emission is not self-starting, and starting means are discussed. Noise, life, emission density, and temperature range of operation are discussed in so far as present knowledge permits. An experimental design of an amplifier tube employing this cathode is described and the characteristics of the tube are given.



posted on Apr, 17 2018 @ 02:43 AM
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originally posted by: kborissov


[12] M.W. Barsoum, A. Ganguly, and G. Hug. ”Microstructural Evidence of Reconstituted Limestone blocks in the Great Pyramids of Egypt, Journal of the American Ceramic Society”. Year: 2006.

That is a dreadfully bad paper.

Mind you. This paper is published in one of the best journals in the USA, which is a peer reviewed journal. The paper was extensively reviewed by people who dedicated their lives to material science and accepted. That tells me a lot about publication and not your minuscule opinion.



Yes, I suppose it does tell you a lot about the publication and my "minuscule opinion."

Note for those not following this - He's trying to say that this paper is wonderful because it was published in an academic journal. What he's sliding over is that they published it in a journal for ceramics - in other words, people who don't know beans about geology, limestone, or Egyptology.

A true "peer review" (which this paper has never been able to pass) would have been done by a journal of Egyptology. This is one of the things you learn in your first courses in any advanced degree... that garbage research slides by in journals not related to the topic.



Here you go again. Do me a favor, talk to Marzouk M. Bekhit, and Saad A Khalil who are from the national research center of Cairo and did research of conductivity of limestone at high frequency and published the paper "Electrical Properties of Moist Limestone Samples In The Frequency Range 1Hz-10^7 Hz From Abu Rawash Area” in Australian Journal of Basic and Applied Sciences which is another peer reviewed journal where prior to publications the articles are extensively reviewed by PhDs and other qualified people. Convince them that the research work they did on conductivity of Limestone at high frequency is garbage because you know better.


I read the paper instead... and remark again that it's geosampling and that the amount of conductivity is very slight and the frequencies are not in the visible light spectrum.

To quote from the paper:


Some limestone samples from Abu Rawash area west Cairo are studied in the present work in the
frequency range 1 – 10 Hz. Measurements are carried out under some controlled atmospheric relative 7
humidities from nearly dry sample (relative humidity 10%) up to 50%. The samples have thicknesses of
about 3mm. and a diameter about 5cm. The measurements were carried out using Hioki bridge for
measuring samples in the frequency range 100Hz up to 5MHz, and Q-meter bridge for measuring the samples
up to 10 MHz.
Fig.(2) shows variation of capacitance (C ) and conductance (G ) for nearly dry sample (R.H. x x 10%) in
x the frequency range 1-10 Hz. No dispersion is noticed in C in the frequency range of measurement. The 7
x sample conductance (G ) on the other hand shows a frequency dependence which can be approximated as
G á ù. x
With increasing the relative humidity up to 35% the sample capacitance increases from about 100 in the
dry state (fig.2) to about 10 at frequency 10 Hz. (Fig.3).


In other words, folks, this is a tiny electromagnetic charge AND it's also in a part of the electromagnetic spectrum that we can't see. You can get limestone to emit visible light if you heat the heck out of it (and then it degrades very very quickly.)

Their conclusion is that these small differences can be detected by the equipment used by modern oil prospecting companies and that... :

The diagnostics may be effective in mineral, water and oil prospecting, exploration of geothermal energy, well logging, monitoring of the stress stored within the earth's crust, earthquake prediction and assessment of the safety of toxic and radio active waste repositories.


So, as you see, I did indeed read the paper and I can, indeed, understand what they're saying. I also note that they tested very thin and small slabs of limestone.



It is already a second long post from you where 80% of all text is in reference to my PhD. I do not talk about my PhD as much as you talk about my PhD. Please stop it. it is annoying.

Frankly, your many errors (not knowing when a peer review is garbage and when it's valid, for example) make me wonder.



posted on Apr, 17 2018 @ 04:36 AM
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originally posted by: Cauliflower
a reply to: kborissov

A single Hertz is one cycle per second, about the frequency Eratosthenes would have observed as the sun lit the bottom of a deep well at noon. 10^7 Hertz is a shortwave frequency used by Ham radio operators in the 1950's. Did the ancients correctly foresee humanity still using their system 5000 years later?



The MgO cold cathode is a new source of electrons with possible applications in various types of electron tubes. It consists of a thin layer of porous magnesium oxide on a nickel base. A strong electric field that exists across the layer while in operation is believed to produce the electron emission from the surface. Evidence supports the theory that avalanche multiplication occurs in the layer. This cathode glows with a pale blue luminescence during operation. The velocity distribution of the emitted electrons shows a peak at 13 electron volts. The outer surface potential has been measured and found to be of the order of 150 volts with respect to the nickel base. The emission is not self-starting, and starting means are discussed. Noise, life, emission density, and temperature range of operation are discussed in so far as present knowledge permits. An experimental design of an amplifier tube employing this cathode is described and the characteristics of the tube are given.


This is discussing magnesium microtubules. This has nothing to to do with limestone. Limestone is made of calcite and aragonite, which are different crystal forms of calcium carbonate (CaCO3) Looking at the article they are try to say that limestone somehow forms a metallic foam. It doesn't and the author is clueless as to why. A metallic foam is created on a metal base usually nickel then you heat magnesium while passing hydrogen through the metal. Thus creates those microtubules the article discusses because the magnesium coats the walls of the tubules. Think of it as mixeoscopic wires made of magnesium. This doesn't exist in limestone. Limestone may contain magnesium but do to the process that creates it will never reach temperatures to create microtubules.

The author apears to have read about metalic foam and wants to claim limestone is a form of it. Well it isn't at all.

en.m.wikipedia.org...
edit on 4/17/18 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 21 2018 @ 06:07 AM
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Worship the wicked one, who gives power to man, to destroy his God. But God destroys them for their betrayal of God.

A powerful weapon which never came to exist. Everyone who tried to build the weapons payed dearly for it.

Perhaps that's why entire civilizations who built pyramids simply 'vanished' from the face of the Earth.


Who knows?



posted on Apr, 21 2018 @ 06:23 AM
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The Great Pyramid is a symbol of evil, even today, which fits into my theory.

Why do they look at the Great Pyramid as a symbol of greatness, in secret, if the Pyramid was not created by/for something evil ?

Such a grand mystery



posted on Apr, 22 2018 @ 09:03 PM
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A marker at the edge of the desert, a clue to all the secrets the sahara hold?



posted on Apr, 28 2018 @ 06:39 AM
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originally posted by: turbonium1
The Great Pyramid is a symbol of evil, even today, which fits into my theory.

Why do they look at the Great Pyramid as a symbol of greatness, in secret, if the Pyramid was not created by/for something evil ?

Such a grand mystery


No, no mystery.

The Great Pyramid was commissioned in the mid-3rd millennium by King Khufu as his tomb.



posted on Apr, 28 2018 @ 09:20 AM
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a reply to: kborissov

Read your article, but although you describe the 'how', you haven't even approached the 'why'? aspect...

Why did the planet need the light of the pyramid? What function would the emitted light fulfill..?




posted on Apr, 28 2018 @ 02:43 PM
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originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
a reply to: kborissov

Read your article, but although you describe the 'how', you haven't even approached the 'why'? aspect...

Why did the planet need the light of the pyramid? What function would the emitted light fulfill..?


Perhaps that particular wavelength is mosquito repelling.

Harte



posted on May, 5 2018 @ 04:34 AM
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originally posted by: Hooke

originally posted by: turbonium1
The Great Pyramid is a symbol of evil, even today, which fits into my theory.

Why do they look at the Great Pyramid as a symbol of greatness, in secret, if the Pyramid was not created by/for something evil ?

Such a grand mystery


No, no mystery.

The Great Pyramid was commissioned in the mid-3rd millennium by King Khufu as his tomb.


A tomb inside the pyramid does not prove he built it. If someone had their coffin set in the basement of Sears Tower, that's not proof he built it, either.



posted on May, 5 2018 @ 11:45 AM
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originally posted by: turbonium1

originally posted by: Hooke

originally posted by: turbonium1
The Great Pyramid is a symbol of evil, even today, which fits into my theory.

Why do they look at the Great Pyramid as a symbol of greatness, in secret, if the Pyramid was not created by/for something evil ?

Such a grand mystery


No, no mystery.

The Great Pyramid was commissioned in the mid-3rd millennium by King Khufu as his tomb.


A tomb inside the pyramid does not prove he built it. If someone had their coffin set in the basement of Sears Tower, that's not proof he built it, either.


His name is found in several places that had been completely sealed since the construction of the pyramid.

Harte



posted on May, 5 2018 @ 10:27 PM
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originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: turbonium1

originally posted by: Hooke

originally posted by: turbonium1
The Great Pyramid is a symbol of evil, even today, which fits into my theory.

Why do they look at the Great Pyramid as a symbol of greatness, in secret, if the Pyramid was not created by/for something evil ?

Such a grand mystery


No, no mystery.

The Great Pyramid was commissioned in the mid-3rd millennium by King Khufu as his tomb.


A tomb inside the pyramid does not prove he built it. If someone had their coffin set in the basement of Sears Tower, that's not proof he built it, either.


His name is found in several places that had been completely sealed since the construction of the pyramid.

Harte


There's no proof it was sealed "Since the construction of the pyramid". The pyramid had entrances which were able to be opened and closed, repeatedly. The entrances were sealed, and disguised, to appear like the rest of the exterior. But that does not mean Khufu built the pyramid itself.

As in the analogy of the 'Sears Tower', a man could have his coffin sealed in a hidden room, which nobody discovers for decades, and assumes it was sealed when 'the man in the coffin' built the tower. His name is found in several places within the tower, as well, which 'confirms' he built it. Nobody can prove otherwise, since this hypothetical 'Sears Tower' had no documents, or records, that mention who built it, how it was built, when it was built, or even why it might have been built.

There's another problem with your Khufu theory - it doesn't mention how it was built, there are no carvings showing how it was built, or showing Khufu overseeing his 'workers' building it.

This would prove, to everyone, forever after, that the greatest monument ever built on Earth, was built by the greatest of all Kings, King Khufu'. He describes, in every detail, how he built his monument. It can still be disputed from that point, that he didn't really build it, but rather, he had discovered the records of HOW it was built, and destroyed the records, so to claim he built it.

That's the very LEAST of evidence required to indicate he most likely built it. Even then, it would not be absolute proof, but a strong argument could be made for it.


I believe King Khufu simply wanted everything to appear as if he had built the great pyramid, as much as possible, while he had no idea who built it, or why it was built. And we know he didn't build it, or he'd have scrawled it all over the walls.


Ancient rulers like Khufu believed they were above humans, as God-like figures, who deserved worship, and devotion, and so on. One look at their artwork proves they were God-like figures.

All it would take from that point is a King's bloated ego, and slaves, to make it appear as if he built the pyramids. I'd bet that OTHER kings probably started it all, well before Khufu came along. Just replace tombs, and a few walls, and you're the new 'builder'!


Anyway, the main point is that we'll never know who built it, or when, or why, and - most important - HOW it was built.

But I do know that any of these Kings would have trumpeted on and on, about how they built the great pyramid, and they didn't, so they tried to appear as the builders.



posted on May, 5 2018 @ 10:34 PM
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This was a culture that recorded their events, their culture, their lifestyle, and what food they ate, on the walls of caves, on bowls, on everything they COULD draw on.

Would they forget to paint something about how they built the greatest monument ever known? They'd just 'forget' to paint a wall or two, on what they've all been working on for the past 50-100 years? Sure.

edit on 5-5-2018 by turbonium1 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 6 2018 @ 02:16 AM
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originally posted by: turbonium1

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: turbonium1

originally posted by: Hooke

originally posted by: turbonium1
The Great Pyramid is a symbol of evil, even today, which fits into my theory.

Why do they look at the Great Pyramid as a symbol of greatness, in secret, if the Pyramid was not created by/for something evil ?

Such a grand mystery


No, no mystery.

The Great Pyramid was commissioned in the mid-3rd millennium by King Khufu as his tomb.


A tomb inside the pyramid does not prove he built it. If someone had their coffin set in the basement of Sears Tower, that's not proof he built it, either.


His name is found in several places that had been completely sealed since the construction of the pyramid.

Harte


There's no proof it was sealed "Since the construction of the pyramid".

Yes, there is. The chambers had to be blown open with black powder and there are no exits to them.
It's quite simple. They were never entered after they were covered by the next layer in the pyramid because there was no opening through which to enter them.

Of course, anyone with no knowledge of the matter can CLAIM anything they want about this, like you just did. Others prefer to fit their theories to the known facts.

Harte




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