U.S. China Trade War Kicks Up Another Notch - What Happened To FREE MARKET Capitalism.?

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: TerryMcGuire

False. Trump is saying stop subsidizing your companies, taking a short term loss with the long term goal of driving away US competition, or we will retaliate by imposing tariffs to offset your subsidization. It's about leveling the playing field so that US companies and jobs are not lost forever.

Yes, I understand that this is what many think he is saying. And it makes sense if based upon a twentieth century economic model. However the Ford model of pay employees enough to buy the product the company produces was long ago tossed out the window by a large portion of corporations based in the US. And at that, even as that was a viable manufacturing tactic it never did filter down to smaller companies and businesses.

Americas notion of a manufacturing base was born during and after WWII. No other country in the world had it's manufacturing base intact, they were all bombed out of existence, almost. The US manufacturing industry really had no competition anywhere. US companies were forced to pay living wages to workers because we were selling to the whole world all of our first world products and resources. Workers could strike for better wages and conditions and the corporations were forced to meet those demands. And it all worked well enough for a couple of decades until the rest of the world began to catch up.

But the rest of the world in catching up to supplying the emerging world economy could only do that if they abandoned the model of workers rights and salaries. US based companies saw this and began to move overseas along with investments.

Am I wrong in any of that? If not, then I can't see how these tariffs will help anything other than the race to the bottom.

a reply to: luthier

Well arent you ablaze with zeal today.

How the high school indoctrination camps "teach" it nowadays probably does hammer into their heads that Wall Street + ChiComm ruling the world as its all set up now is how its supposed to be.

a reply to: TerryMcGuire

The problem is China subsidizes their industries to artificially lower cost to outcompete us. So raising the price to compensate restores the free market model.

The US government has been complicit in this whole ordeal of destroying US businesses. Under Obama some super shady stuff happened with the US basically paying for China to ship their goods to America to outcomepete Americans and put us out of business. Kickbacks can be the only explanation.

www.forbes.com... ap/#2ec7110640ca

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
a reply to: luthier

Well arent you ablaze with zeal today.

How the high school indoctrination camps "teach" it nowadays probably does hammer into their heads that Wall Street + ChiComm ruling the world as its all set up now is how its supposed to be.

It is something that effects me. I use tools and supplies from China personally.


Because it's cheap and allows me to have my own business. As I earn wealth I buy better US made stuff.

And what is the correlation between trade deficit and jobs?


PS sorry for piss and vinegar. Just crazy to hear free market capitalists saying we should go backwards to working in strip mines.

Yeah we have a trade deficit because we are rich.

Pittsburg doing great as a health care industry low unemployment transferred jobs from crappy dangerous ones to service and research..not understanding how these basic economic premises are not understood.

Where there are actual crimes you can negotiate new contracts accordingly. Not destroy industries to bring us back to 1947.

Funny reading your old posts about concern for "slave wages" artificially depressed in part by outsourcing American industries endorsed by big corporations and the politicians they own. And then we contrast that with your new concern that we maintain the status quo regarding China. TDS?

Few questions can anyone link trade deficit with gdp, citizen health, happiness, or wage?

I can. The higher the deficit the more likely hood your society is wealthy and has high wages in contrast to the import nations.

So places like Iran have trade balances.

Places like the US, Uk, etc. Run deficits. Have massive economic power and don't have to work in steele mills to make a living pumping out tractors by hand from the quarry to the assembly.

Yes there are problems. There are also solutions that don't require gambling with the American people's inflation level and trying to win a culture war instead of come up with solutions.

So the answer to the problem of expatriating industry and unemployment is to outsource even more jobs and industry, financing the Chinese ability to bully their neighbors.
The bigger the deficit the better?

If we get rid of steel workers and tractor makers, people can get better higher paying wages working for... whatever companies that don't chose to take advantage of 3rd world working conditions and lack of environmental regulations, I guess.

The bigger the trade imbalance the better. If we can just get rid of all our jobs, then we'd be set. The massive unemployed labor pool and limited jobs will lead to better standard of living and higher wages here in the US, I'm sure.

Makes sense. For Wall St companies who only care about their margin.

I don't think you actually believe anything you're spouting based on your post history.

originally posted by: RadioRobert
So the answer to the problem of expatriating industry and unemployment is to outsource even more jobs and industry, financing the Chinese ability to bully their neighbors.
The bigger the deficit the better?

If we get rid of steel workers and tractor makers, people can get better higher paying wages working for... whatever companies that don't chose to take advantage of 3rd world working conditions and lack of environmental regulations, I guess.

The bigger the trade imbalance the better. If we can just get rid of all our jobs, then we'd be set. The massive unemployed labor pool and limited jobs will lead to better standard of living and higher wages here in the US, I'm sure.

Makes sense. For Wall St companies who only care about their margin.

I don't think you actually believe anything you're spouting based on your post history.

Based on my post history?

Please grab one where I say anything that supports a tariff war being the solution. Like I said there are problems. That doesn't mean the solution is to destroy farmers in Nebraska to bring back the idea we really going to have high manufacturing numbers for export.

The fact of the matter is we are a service, research, and technological innovation center. We should work at remaining so.

Now that doesn't mean we shouldn't make better deals next time they come up and slowly negotiate better deals but crashing through the China shop is plainly just stupid.


Steele workers already did find other jobs. Look up Pittsburg.

The jobs are automated because they are dangerous and unhealthy.

As are the factories. So yes. Other jobs are needed.

We don't preserve buggy whip makers just to save jobs or make things like 1906 either.

Inconvenient luthier quotes...

Capitalism would be fine if they could make laws that absolutley seperate political power and lobby influence. As well as stronger tariff laws to protect the workforce.  ...it seems obvious it's required.

The flaw with capitalism is the enivetable oligarchy that comes with wealth consolidation. It's also the elimination of jobs through efficiency and outsourcing. 

Personally I know it's dangerous but the market also needs very simple basic regulations to prevent massive workforce elimination. Probably just in the form of using tariffs to Ballance the outsourcing.

Well there is also a physical lack of jobs...It will destroy the market to not have consumers.

Is applying trade tarifs to level manufacturing jobs inherently socialist?

We moved the labour market offshore to deal with cheaper labour markets where no such regulations were in place. Which is still imoral and unethical. 

The free market does not correct these things on its own. It takes market and labour regulations which are seen as interventionalist. 

So when the bandits come for your bussiness control the mines and distribution perhaps you can hold up your free market bible and idol of old Ludwig bit I doubt they will care. 

Seems like you thought protectionist tariffs were the way to go before the big bad T-word wanted to implement it...

This thread has little to do with reality and really is more about Trump bashing. OP does not understand the shifting roles of creditor debtor nations, how treasuries work, or long term strategic thinking. This post is just to instill more FUD based on nothing.

originally posted by: RadioRobert
Inconvenient luthier quotes...

Capitalism would be fine if they could make laws that absolutley seperate political power and lobby influence. As well as stronger tariff laws to protect the workforce.  ...it seems obvious it's required.

The flaw with capitalism is the enivetable oligarchy that comes with wealth consolidation. It's also the elimination of jobs through efficiency and outsourcing. 

Personally I know it's dangerous but the market also needs very simple basic regulations to prevent massive workforce elimination. Probably just in the form of using tariffs to Ballance the outsourcing.

Well there is also a physical lack of jobs...It will destroy the market to not have consumers.

Is applying trade tarifs to level manufacturing jobs inherently socialist?

We moved the labour market offshore to deal with cheaper labour markets where no such regulations were in place. Which is still imoral and unethical. 

The free market does not correct these things on its own. It takes market and labour regulations which are seen as interventionalist. 

So when the bandits come for your bussiness control the mines and distribution perhaps you can hold up your free market bible and idol of old Ludwig bit I doubt they will care. 

Seems like you thought protectionist tariffs were the way to go before the big bad T-word wanted to implement it...

Pretty sure you left out that it would take decades and is the task of Congress...

No where does it say create a tariff war.

In fact in the same discussion I say it can't be done overnight, quickly and would take decades to correct.

And nowhere do I sight trade deficit as the problem.

The laws around finance and corporations are every bit as dubious as the tariffs that were negotiated starting with Nixon..

But if you care to try and debate the exact things I keep saying.

There are problems.

Some of then are efficiency based

Some are lobby

Some are tariff negotiations that were done too fast like nafta and not properly readjusted as time went on..

Whenever anyone pulls a lever in the economy bad things are more likely to happen than small corrections with a goal over time.


and by looking at my question you seem to have created a strawman.

Did you find the trade war being the solution in my conversation?
Lol..
Nice try though.

a reply to: luthier

Congress is pretty much impotent. They only work in Washington 138 days per year.

originally posted by: carewemust
a reply to: luthier

Congress is pretty much impotent. They only work in Washington 138 days per year.

I understand but so is the public for ignoring their importance. Ś

The problem is 8 years is not enough to correct 40 years of damage. Some of it just natural change with progress. So while I support his view some deals were pretty bad for workers I don't share attempting trade wars with people who don't care if the citizens starve and appointed a leader for life.

a reply to: luthier

Then you're not really for implementing tariffs. You're for the status quo. Because every time a tariff gets mentioned China puffs up about "free markets", threatens new tariffs, and the bought and paid for media screams the sky is falling until we back down. Noone has had the stones to go toe-to-toe in a fight we have the leverage in. So talk about tariffs from you is simply that then. You don't actually believe in them, because if someone threatens back, then we should just fold and accept the status quo. That's how we ended up with increasingly bad deals.
Just admit you'd rather keep the cancer than deal with chemo.

originally posted by: RadioRobert
a reply to: luthier

Then you're not really for implementing tariffs. You're for the status quo. Because every time a tariff gets mentioned China puffs up about "free markets", threatens new tariffs, and the bought and paid for media screams the sky is falling until we back down. Noone has had the stones to go toe-to-toe in a fight we have the leverage in. So talk about tariffs from you is simply that then. You don't actually believe in them, because if someone threatens back, then we should just fold and accept the status quo. That's how we ended up with increasingly bad deals.
Just admit you'd rather keep the cancer than deal with chemo.

Hardly.

What I don't do is boil it down to something so simple as trade balance.

so when we stop letting other nations abuse our kindness by not imposing a vat tax(or tariffs with a catchy name) on imports we are the bad guys suddenly?

aren't vat taxes basically tariffs with a fancy name? you're really gonna spout such hypocrisy with a straight face?

when china stops flooding our country with excessive amounts of cheap goods and fake "made in america" products, maybe then we might back off.

why should we allow China to keep manipulating us and give up our position on top, if they competed fairly like germany and actually made better or equal products to us it wouldn't be an issue, but no they wanna use economic human wave tactics like it's a war.

Trump doesn’t know what he’s doing. Government by narcissism.

The stock market went down again and the jobs created in March are less than expected.
Only Trump could ruin a great economy Obama left him. The same thing Bush did when Clinton left not only a good economy but a balanced budget.

Trump will end up being Bush II

God help us

originally posted by: namehere
so when we stop letting other nations abuse our kindness by not imposing a vat tax(or tariffs with a catchy name) on imports we are the bad guys suddenly?

aren't vat taxes basically tariffs with a fancy name? you're really gonna spout such hypocrisy with a straight face?

when china stops flooding our country with excessive amounts of cheap goods and fake "made in america" products, maybe then we might back off.

why should we allow China to keep manipulating us and give up our position on top, if they competed fairly like germany and actually made better or equal products to us it wouldn't be an issue, but no they wanna use economic human wave tactics like it's a war.

How do trade deficit reflect wealth of nation?

How would China take out place on top because of trade deficit?

Would you prefer live in a pollution filled country mostly poor in a communist society?

Trade deficit isn't the issue.

They have gotten some deals that effected American manufacturing but our lack of concern for retraining and making incentives for better jobs and better companies to set up is just as big of an issue. As is the irs tax code compliance.

China can't do high end aerospace and development yet at least. We should honestly be discussing where we plan on going with the future and what kind of jobs we want. Not simply saving things like coal and not making a trade war.

This will effect more people than it helps. It has a very small probability of success.

He is a gambler as an entrepreneur that may not be a great idea with millions of people's jobs and inflation. The cpi is sure to be effected.


Also it's not just junk. It's things like cnc machines themselves. Cable and wire weavers etc that American businesses use. It's people's small shops and businesses using things off eBay to make their own jobs.

a reply to: luthier

I'm against child labour and for child labour laws... Until big business convinces me it might hurt the economy because it hurts their profit margin. I'd rather have lower prices than experience the economic pain regulation might bring. Why it could be disastrous. If we can't exploit the cheap labor pool of children, prices could sky rocket! Maybe eventually, one day, we can implement child labor laws. Slowly, in a measured manner that makes sure consumers aren't inconvenienced. I can't imagine a scenario where it could be implemented so, but in that case, I'd be for child labor laws because I'm for them, of course. Just not now. Or anytime it might affect the economy.

originally posted by: RadioRobert
a reply to: luthier

I'm against child labour and for child labour laws... Until big business convinces me it might hurt the economy because it hurts their profit margin. I'd rather have lower prices than experience the economic pain regulation might bring. Why it could be disastrous. If we can't exploit the cheap labor pool of children, prices could sky rocket! Maybe eventually, one day, we can implement child labor laws. Slowly, in a measured manner that makes sure consumers aren't inconvenienced. I can't imagine a scenario where it could be implemented so, but in that case, I'd be for child labor laws because I'm for them, of course. Just not now. Or anytime it might affect the economy.

So what do child labor laws and tariffs have to do with one another?

Your arguments are pretty fragmented and wide.

So in your opinion getting in a tariff war with China is the answer....

Got it.

I see how simple you see things and it helps me understand how politicians fool people.