U.S. China Trade War Kicks Up Another Notch - What Happened To FREE MARKET Capitalism.?

a reply to: Azureblue



Bail in laws would be used later in a crisis. First it would be capital control on the money withdrawn from the bank. Then it would be full digital money. After the cancellation of all paper notes. This would essentially re liquidize the banks mainly from dodgy cash that cant be laundered, and theirs a lot of black money around. When its full on digitized then they can put an algorithm on your buying habits to mark people who look like they are buying material for resistance to total control.
But about that time life would have worked out a few alternatives that would piss them off.

a reply to: Mandroid7
China has got to be stopped. You just couldn't make it up what's happened around here by letting them into the economic world system. The jobs all gone, kids knocking around all day drugged up as the burger bar jobs offer no real future. Someone has got to stand up for the West and take on the Commie threat, I mean they stood up to the Commies in the past and fought them to a standstill in Asia and weakened them in central Europe. The threat is real and now destroys us from the inside out. Their spies are everywhere, I mean a few years ago Chinese were just about able to grow a bit of rice when I was a kid, now they suddenly come up with their own F35 replica. It's gone too far, too far gone now. If it takes Trump to press the reset button and save us all from the Reds he got my backing and most Brits I know

originally posted by: PistolPete

originally posted by: pheonix358
Would you all wake the hell up please.

China did nothing. It was the US companies that sacked all the US workers and ORDERED the goods from Chinese companies.

Your own rich elite did this. But oh deary me, blame the poor Chinese worker.

Your own people sold you out.

Own it!

P

How much did you have to pay to get your username spelled correctly? Is it 10 bucks like Xbox?

Is that all you have?

Do you understand the topic at all?

I chose to spell it that way

Now, do you have an opinion on the subject outlined in the OP.

P

originally posted by: pheonix358

originally posted by: PistolPete

originally posted by: pheonix358
Would you all wake the hell up please.

China did nothing. It was the US companies that sacked all the US workers and ORDERED the goods from Chinese companies.

Your own rich elite did this. But oh deary me, blame the poor Chinese worker.

Your own people sold you out.

Own it!

P

How much did you have to pay to get your username spelled correctly? Is it 10 bucks like Xbox?

Is that all you have?

Do you understand the topic at all?

I chose to spell it that way

Now, do you have an opinion on the subject outlined in the OP.

P

Didn't I spell it out? With links? In two different posts??

The US-China trade war is about China trading oil in their own currency not the dollar.

Trump is an out of his league celebrity fighting against strongman dictators that are trying to destroy our economy for the betterment of their own nation's.

Now how did you get your name spelled correctly? The "e" and "o" were juxtaposed. Made me laugh constantly.

China has no respect for patents and trademarks, royalties or intellectual property rights. They copy everything with little R&D cost. False advertising of substandard products is the order of the day, but it increases profits. Go figure.

originally posted by: carewemust
a reply to: DupontDeux

If China is "ripping us off" to the tune of $400 billion @ year, as the President states, let's quit doing business with them. If your mechanic is charging too much, get another one. Right?

Or, you know, impose tariffs as countermeasures to their manipulation of the market system.

The immediate damage here in the US.. very likely the demise of Sears, K Mart and J.C.Penney. And likely a cascade of other Chinese product purveyors.

a reply to: carewemust

You ask me, tariffs are just another word for Sanctions. Can't use sanctions though, that would be too revealing. The Asian pivot after all must proceed, except "Asia" can pivot back.

If we think we are going to win an economic war with China... guess again.

Got bypassed when the U.S. dollar became the global reserve currency decades ago.

a reply to: carewemust

Personally?

I think this "trade war" is a ruse and theatre to get China to exert more pressure on North Korea before the talks scheduled next month.


After the talks, I expect the "trade war" to fizzle out if China cooperates with putting pressure on Kim Jung.

Whenever the tariff subject comes up someone inevitably posts something about the US debt that China holds, and how any sort of a tariff will cause a disastrous domino effect with China suddenly dumping all that debt (and crushing the US economy as a result). That is patently false and will never happen. Further, those who post similar themes must not understand global economics and/or how international banking works.

China holds that debt because it makes them money, plain and simple! They're not holding the debt as some kind of 'favor' to the US. And, they'll continue to hold that debt as long as it makes them money. When it stops making them money, they'll dump it. Anyone would / should do the same. China isn't all of a sudden going to say..."Gee, the US just imposed a tariff on (x) product, so we're going to retaliate by losing more money (in essence cutting of their own nose to spite their face)"

Secondly, as others have pointed out, China doesn't play the game fairly anyway ('fair' just being a relative term, not a moral one). They'll "talk" a big game in public, but behind the scenes the Chinese government will just push those same tariffs downstream to the companies making the tariff-ed products, leaving the overall financial posture of the Chinese government unchanged. In other words, they'll just enslave their workforce even further...they don't care. The companies themselves will bear the sole burden of those tariffs and sink or swim as a result. The Chinese government couldn't care less. You won't ever see the Chinese government jumping up and offering to split some of the tariff costs with these same companies...never happen.

This discussion quickly goes down the rabbit hole of "subsidized industry" which is a PhD worthy subject in terms of complexity, but rather than go there now; suffice to say subsidized industry works quite differently in China than it does in the US and serves a different purpose for a variety of reasons.

In any case, trade at the consumer product level is almost completely unrelated to banking at the international level.

I'm wondering who wins if the world economies embark on protectionism?
Historically countries that have defaulted on their foreign debts have done better if they are prepared to operate as an isolated economy. What are some of the other reasons isolationism could be good?

a reply to: dragonridr

Yeah, the bonds will then be sold to the Federal Reserve which creates money out of thin air to purchase them.

a reply to: TheBandit795

I assume your statement was intended to be sarcasm, right?

DP

a reply to: carewemust

Because it's not free-market when China subsidizes their companies so that they can outcompete Us companies and force US companies to close down.

The tariffs actually return us to free-market.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
Whenever the tariff subject comes up someone inevitably posts something about the US debt that China holds, and how any sort of a tariff will cause a disastrous domino effect with China suddenly dumping all that debt (and crushing the US economy as a result). That is patently false and will never happen. Further, those who post similar themes must not understand global economics and/or how international banking works.

True with one caveat. They could impact short term sales of bonds as they dump them, for a loss, and the United States has to match or beat the pricing to continue to sell more bonds.

What this means is we make less money in the short term as buyers snap up reduced price bonds dumped by the Chinese versus paying a higher price for the ones the Treasury is selling. However all that does is have us make less money for a finite time while they instantly lose billions.

It's like holding a gun to your head and saying you have a hostage. Can they cut off their nose to spite their face? Of course. Will they? Highly doubtful.

I'm for free markets, but China is not an ethical or fair trading partner. As someone pointed out, globalism does not work. All it is doing is creating a lower middle class in countries like China with much lower standards of living at the expense of our lower and middle classes here in the US who have much higher standards of living. The typical American worker cannot compete because even our poor have higher standards of living than even upper class Chinese.

American companies get access to their cheap labor which American consumers love at the expense of eventually seeing their own jobs eliminated in the long term. However, the Chinese restrict American companies access to their markets. In addition, the Chinese culture does not respect intellectual property which is why they knock off / counterfiet everything. The Chinese essentially steal American intellectual property / innovation in exchange for the American companies gaining access to their cheap labor.

Quite frankly, I think the American consumer needs to wake up and pull their head's out their azz. It isn't just corporations seeking to improve shareholder return, but a natural response to consumers always seeking the lowest price. The more consumers demand that products be made in America and actually reach into their pockets to pay a little more for a quality made product, the more companies will be willing to keep manufacturing stateside.

My personal favourite is "they'll tank the dollar".

As though making all the debt they hold worth less and making our products easier to compete with globally is going to help them somehow. That's why they've been deliberately pegging the yuan to the dollar and keeping it under valued.


Will a trade war be pretty? No. Like any other sort of war, there will be a cost to be paid. Is paying that cost short-term better than watching the industrial base crumble? Yes. Also, there is strategic value in keeping many of these industries domestic.

I'm wondering who wins if the world economies embark on protectionism? 
Historically countries that have defaulted on their foreign debts have done better if they are prepared to operate as an isolated economy. What are some of the other reasons isolationism could be good?

Jobs. Jobs. And jobs.
Which isn't to say we should or can stop trading with other countries. Even China. Trade is good. But the goal should be opening their markets in exchange. Finding a win-win. What's going on now, is not particularly healthy. The whole point of giving all the sweet heart deals pumping money into China in the 80's and 90's was to gain access to their potentially large markets and hopefully entice them toward liberalization. Instead we had Tieneman Square, they just protect/expand their own industries, take our money, and smile while they use the imbalance in cashflow to fuel their machine.
When Obama used tariffs against Chinese market manipulation the press cheered someone finally standing up to China after Bush was rolled over. Now someone is trying to use them to leverage the trade arrangements, and it's full on sky is falling.

How about how it costs us $3 to mail an empty envelope to China, but Chinese sellers can sell actual products on ebay for ONE DOLLAR shipped (including all costs such as ebay listing and final value fees, paypal fees, and every other aspects of mfg, supply chain, storage, handling, etc)????????????