NYPD video shows moments before cops fatally shoot bipolar man

originally posted by: joeraynor
a reply to: MikeA

It's really easy to not get shot by a cop. DO WHAT EVEN THEY TELL YOU TO DO THE FIRST TIME THEY SAY IT. As far as I'm concerned if a person runs from cops it's open season. They are not running for no reason, and they are not running because they're scared.

Usually. There are those times though... as in the recent Arizona case where the officer ordered the kid to do an impossible game of simon says, and crawl across the floor with his hands in the air, and then shot the kid for staggering and touching his waistband reflexively. We are not talking about a person as in this ridiculous video for this tread, where the guy clearly was simulating having a gun.

There are other cases where the police officer is fully in the wrong, treating calm and compliant citizens like garbage, and then executing them for making reflexive mistakes. Problems where officers are just either so paralyzed and overcome by fear they have no business being an officer, or they have contempt for the public... and have no business being an officer.

Yeah I live in Arizona and know the case. Here's the thing I've stumbled a few times in my 53 years of living, never once did I have the reflex to reach for my waist band. What you call Simon says I call controlling the situation. And there in lies the problem. To many people seem to think that the cop they've never met knows what is in their mind. I don't know you, you don't know me. If I reach for my waist band when confronting you want an I doing?. Before you go bad mouthing their actions put on the badge and hit the street. Unless you've been cussed at and flipped off by every little punk on the street for doing your job protecting the decent people then I'd say you have not a single leg to stand on.

So like most scenarios, there was no one hurt until the police showed up. Sounds about right.

originally posted by: odzeandennz
So like most scenarios, there was no one hurt until the police showed up. Sounds about right.

Again you have no clue what that man was thinking. Maybe no one was hurt because he was looking for just one person. Or maybe he was just looking to kill a cop. You condemn them but you have no idea about the what's and why's.

a reply to: MikeA

Yeah I live in Arizona and know the case. Here's the thing I've stumbled a few times in my 53 years of living, never once did I have the reflex to reach for my waist band. What you call Simon says I call controlling the situation. And there in lies the problem. To many people seem to think that the cop they've never met knows what is in their mind. I don't know you, you don't know me. If I reach for my waist band when confronting you want an I doing?. Before you go bad mouthing their actions put on the badge and hit the street. Unless you've been cussed at and flipped off by every little punk on the street for doing your job protecting the decent people then I'd say you have not a single leg to stand on.

Being a police officer is not a job for a coward. Here is why:

There is a spectrum of risk in encounters with law enforcement. That risk can either be born by the public, or it can be born by officers. Officers are the ones making the choice who bears the risk in this case.

Now if the public bears the majority of the risk, that effectively means the police are endangering the public, which effectively means they are harming society.

An officer is the person making a choice to be an officer. In doing so, they are accepting by the very nature of the job that they are inviting risk into their lives. So this person knowingly invited risk into their life by their choice of profession, but then they choose to offload that risk onto another person, who made no such agreement to bear risk?

My argument here is that when an officer is put into a situation where there is a slight risk they may come to harm, and in order to avoid that risk, they have to threaten the public, they should accept the risk, not threaten the public. It is not just a job. It is a job for a very special sort of person, and people outside that class should not be involved in that line of work.

It doesn't matter if I am the sort of person personally who is appropriate for the work or not. There aren't many who are is my point. There is a reason why military veterans often make good officers. They are often people acquainted with the concept they are accepting risk into their lives, they are used to that pressure, and it won't cause them to make irrational decisions.

originally posted by: pavil


That was in no way the Cops fault with this one. Sure looked like a gun to me. People who called into the police described it as a gun as well. Sorry he died but it's not like they didn't have reason to shoot. Easy to second guess when you are not the one having something that looks like a gun pointed at you in a threatening manner.

Easier to assume and shoot... Seems today it can be a cell phone and your back is too them...lol

I like your words...what "looks like a gun" and "threatening manner". A shower head and no actual physical violence for a good observable time.

DB

originally posted by: SocratesJohnson


Do you personally have issues with cops??

Throwing that he has a mental issue in the title, like the cops should know.

Unless you want people with mental illness to have to get a tattoo or wear a symbol on their clothes? If not, how do you expect the cops to know that someone is crazy?

I have issues with cops that shoot people who end up not having a weapon and are not physically attacking the cop to the point that a cop only choice is to shoot.

That is my point the cops don't know anything and they shoot. They do know up to that point he didn't actually do any physical violence other than to act in a crazy manner. All too often the cop says I felt threaten, how about 6 bullets in the back because the cops said a phone looked like a gun, or a kid with an air soft gets blown away in less than 2 seconds when the cops pull up though he been playing around by himself for a while.

Your statement is suggesting that since the cops do not "know" what is going on then lethal force is a good way to figure everything out...

originally posted by: joeraynor
a reply to: MikeA

Yeah I live in Arizona and know the case. Here's the thing I've stumbled a few times in my 53 years of living, never once did I have the reflex to reach for my waist band. What you call Simon says I call controlling the situation. And there in lies the problem. To many people seem to think that the cop they've never met knows what is in their mind. I don't know you, you don't know me. If I reach for my waist band when confronting you want an I doing?. Before you go bad mouthing their actions put on the badge and hit the street. Unless you've been cussed at and flipped off by every little punk on the street for doing your job protecting the decent people then I'd say you have not a single leg to stand on.

Being a police officer is not a job for a coward. Here is why:

There is a spectrum of risk in encounters with law enforcement. That risk can either be born by the public, or it can be born by officers. Officers are the ones making the choice who bears the risk in this case.

Now if the public bears the majority of the risk, that effectively means the police are endangering the public, which effectively means they are harming society.

An officer is the person making a choice to be an officer. In doing so, they are accepting by the very nature of the job that they are inviting risk into their lives. So this person knowingly invited risk into their life by their choice of profession, but then they choose to offload that risk onto another person, who made no such agreement to bear risk?

My argument here is that when an officer is put into a situation where there is a slight risk they may come to harm, and in order to avoid that risk, they have to threaten the public, they should accept the risk, not threaten the public. It is not just a job. It is a job for a very special sort of person, and people outside that class should not be involved in that line of work.

It doesn't matter if I am the sort of person personally who is appropriate for the work or not. There aren't many who are is my point. There is a reason why military veterans often make good officers. They are often people acquainted with the concept they are accepting risk into their lives, they are used to that pressure, and it won't cause them to make irrational decisions.

I see so in your view putting on the badge means you accept the fact that some dirt bag with a grudge against cops for giving him a speeding ticket has a greater right to go home after work than the cop does, simple because he decided to risk his life every day to protect yours. I truly hope there are not to many people out there who feel that way. Protect and serve. That's what they agreed to do, not risk getting shot at driving down the road. And what about all the off duty officers killed taking their kids to the park. Did their kids accept that risk too. If you're a drug dealing dirt bag with a gun, you don't think you are accepting the risk because you don't have a badge? I'm sorry your argument makes no sense. If you are a criminal you are creating that risk, not the cop trying to stop you.

originally posted by: subfab

the police were justified in this incident.
the 911 caller said the suspect had a firearm
the police had no choice but to react to the situation as it happened.
the police have a tough job to do. they deal with the worst people of our society. they are criticized over and over for simply doing their job.

And an unarmed man dies... There was a time when people actually had to do something dangerous than just assumptions, BTW a number of callers said it "might" be a gun. That is a big difference than "a guy with a gun is shooting"

originally posted by: truthnlies
totally justified imo , ida probably pulled my firearm if he would have done that to me on the street . esp if my child was with me. play stupid games , win stupid prizes.

Oh badass...

You are not a professional that deals with crazies daily. BTW if you killed him your prize would be to go to jail...

originally posted by: MikeA

Yeah I live in Arizona and know the case. Here's the thing I've stumbled a few times in my 53 years of living, never once did I have the reflex to reach for my waist band. What you call Simon says I call controlling the situation. And there in lies the problem. To many people seem to think that the cop they've never met knows what is in their mind. I don't know you, you don't know me. If I reach for my waist band when confronting you want an I doing?. Before you go bad mouthing their actions put on the badge and hit the street. Unless you've been cussed at and flipped off by every little punk on the street for doing your job protecting the decent people then I'd say you have not a single leg to stand on.

Now put you on the streets in Afghanistan where every other person has a gun and everyone looks at you threatening, and most likely wants to kill you for real...

Now shoot everyone that looks like they are going for their waist band.... Good luck with that...

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: MikeA

Yeah I live in Arizona and know the case. Here's the thing I've stumbled a few times in my 53 years of living, never once did I have the reflex to reach for my waist band. What you call Simon says I call controlling the situation. And there in lies the problem. To many people seem to think that the cop they've never met knows what is in their mind. I don't know you, you don't know me. If I reach for my waist band when confronting you want an I doing?. Before you go bad mouthing their actions put on the badge and hit the street. Unless you've been cussed at and flipped off by every little punk on the street for doing your job protecting the decent people then I'd say you have not a single leg to stand on.

Now put you on the streets in Afghanistan where every other person has a gun and everyone looks at you threatening, and most likely wants to kill you for real...

Now shoot everyone that looks like they are going for their waist band.... Good luck with that...

Again huh. Last time I looked the streets of the US are not a war zone. At least not where I live.

originally posted by: MikeA

Again huh. Last time I looked the streets of the US are not a war zone. At least not where I live.

That is right and soldiers have more restraint in a war zone than our own cops do on our own streets...

originally posted by: MikeA

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: MikeA

Yeah I live in Arizona and know the case. Here's the thing I've stumbled a few times in my 53 years of living, never once did I have the reflex to reach for my waist band. What you call Simon says I call controlling the situation. And there in lies the problem. To many people seem to think that the cop they've never met knows what is in their mind. I don't know you, you don't know me. If I reach for my waist band when confronting you want an I doing?. Before you go bad mouthing their actions put on the badge and hit the street. Unless you've been cussed at and flipped off by every little punk on the street for doing your job protecting the decent people then I'd say you have not a single leg to stand on.

Now put you on the streets in Afghanistan where every other person has a gun and everyone looks at you threatening, and most likely wants to kill you for real...

Now shoot everyone that looks like they are going for their waist band.... Good luck with that...

Again huh. Last time I looked the streets of the US are not a war zone. At least not where I live.

Tell me this who are the cops protecting if they leave the alone and he points that maybe gun at a passing car. The driver freeks and yanks the wheel running over a preschool class? Who's your concern for then? I'll tell you, for those kids "Why didn't the cops stop the guy? They were right there."

originally posted by: MikeA

Tell me this who are the cops protecting if they leave the alone and he points that maybe gun at a passing car. The driver freeks and yanks the wheel running over a preschool class? Who's your concern for then? I'll tell you, for those kids "Why didn't the cops stop the guy? They were right there."

I didn't say leave him alone...I said maybe don't shoot first before you can understand the situation. You provide some extreme scenario that doesn't even make sense. Cops are called then they go there and assess the situation, and in this case we have a crazy guy running around pointing a shower head at people. At this point the cops can engage the person and in a physical manner if needed apprehend him and get him help.

originally posted by: joeraynor
a reply to: amazing

I'd have to agree. The cops are way out of control in this country. They commit rape and murder on the regular with no consequences.

This does not look like one of those cases. This item looks VERY much like a handgun, and he aims the object in an incredibly aggressive manner, as though he plans to fire immediately. This person is aware that what he is doing looks very much like he is threatening people with a handgun. If this is a person with a serious psychiatric condition, it is a sad outcome, but not the fault of the officer.

This is suicide by cop and I would not fault the cop for this instance, if the cop wasn't aware of the full situation.

Yeah, the big problem in the US is that there is no Justice when there is a Bad Cop or Unjustified shooting. We feel like even the bad cops are above the law. It makes the average person question even justified shooting like this. Some of it is local...like people trust the police here in Vegas way more than people trust the police in Chicago. That starts top down, that's a function of bad leadership...which is bad PR, bad training, bad procedures, bad processes, bad community interaction, no trust in the community and it's a viscious circle.

We have some questionable shootings here in Vegas, but there's never any riots because the police do a really good job of interacting with the community, PR, training, divirsifying and building that trust.

a reply to: MikeA

If you're a drug dealing dirt bag with a gun, you don't think you are accepting the risk because you don't have a badge? I'm sorry your argument makes no sense. If you are a criminal you are creating that risk, not the cop trying to stop you.

We are talking about cases here where there are unknowns that make the proper course of action unclear. I am making the argument that in such cases, the officer should err on the side of not endangering the public, because yes, I feel that is their duty.

Did this hypothetical drug dealer produce a gun and then start the process of aiming it? By all means, open fire.

Did this hypothetical drug dealer (who may or may not be a drug dealer, or just some sketchy-looking college kid) put his hand at his side, as a normal person may be expected to do from time to time? If the officer opened fire in this case, I hold him responsible for misconduct of some form. The risk calculation went: there could be a gun, and he could have been reaching for it, and he could have aimed it at me, and he could have fired, therefore I need to end this person's life by emptying 8 bullets into them.

I am calling this hypothetical act that act of a coward, yes.

I do not feel that an officer can take what may be a sub 1% chance that a person is actually reaching for a real weapon with the intent to use it, despite no prior signs of aggression as grounds for killing that person then and there.

I am here making the argument that that is what a coward would do.

Are there cases where the event I am describing has happened? Yes. Should an officer have such little regard though for the safety of the public as to kill citizens when they feel even the slightest chance of a hypothetical risk arising? That is the position that is illogical to me.

originally posted by: ZeroFurrbone
BS, Police are always reposonisble.

They never shoot in the legs or arms, they shoot in the body because they can't even aim.

And why they don't weak kevlar vests if they are scared of getting shot so much?

I don't care even if that was a toy gun, or a real gun. The person has to shoot first with bullets then the police to shoot him.

Anything else is just idiot police that can shoot whoever they want and then say it was ok cos it looked like he has a gun.

And the best part ? I can go in the use and shoot whoever i want whenever i want just because i feel threatened by them. You trying to rob me ? I kill you! You have a gun? I shoot you imediately because i feel threatened. You have a knife ? Headshot. This is what USA really is.

Shoot em in the hand.



They have a split second to fire or be killed.

What would you do?

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: MikeA

Tell me this who are the cops protecting if they leave the alone and he points that maybe gun at a passing car. The driver freeks and yanks the wheel running over a preschool class? Who's your concern for then? I'll tell you, for those kids "Why didn't the cops stop the guy? They were right there."

I didn't say leave him alone...I said maybe don't shoot first before you can understand the situation. You provide some extreme scenario that doesn't even make sense. Cops are called then they go there and assess the situation, and in this case we have a crazy guy running around pointing a shower head at people. At this point the cops can engage the person and in a physical manner if needed apprehend him and get him help.

I see so my would be extreme scenario makes less sense than you comparing being a cop on the street of the US to a solder in a war zone. Trouble is that having a guy point a fake gun at a passing car happens. Having that driver think it's real happens. That driver then crashing into something happens. None of that means that the general public has any more of a right to go home after work just because they don't wear a badge. If you do something so stupid as to pretend you have a gun, you are accepting the risk that you might get shot. If not by a cop then by someone like me.

By the way in case you don't me, my son is a cop, my middle daughter is an ADA, and my youngest is a CBP officer. I know for a fact that none of them agreed to be a target for every scumb bag with a beef.

originally posted by: ZeroFurrbone
BS, Police are always reposonisble.

They never shoot in the legs or arms, they shoot in the body because they can't even aim.

And why they don't weak kevlar vests if they are scared of getting shot so much?

I don't care even if that was a toy gun, or a real gun. The person has to shoot first with bullets then the police to shoot him.

Anything else is just idiot police that can shoot whoever they want and then say it was ok cos it looked like he has a gun.

And the best part ? I can go in the use and shoot whoever i want whenever i want just because i feel threatened by them. You trying to rob me ? I kill you! You have a gun? I shoot you imediately because i feel threatened. You have a knife ? Headshot. This is what USA really is.

real life isn't like the movies. you don't shoot their leg, you don't shoot their trigger finger off. it just isn't going to happen. when someone is threatening you with a weapon you don't have time to ready your firearm, aim down the sights, then fire. moving targets are difficult to hit. ever been deer hunting? try shooting off the hoof of a moving deer. it can't be done.

when involved with a police officer, you do as instructed. the time to argue the points of the exchange between the officer responding to the call and the suspect is in court.

too many people bad mouth the cops until they need one.