Unifying voices of the disaffected Right under one "banner" or organization - NOT the Republicans

Regarding the Red Herring attacked. A definition and examples of usage may be helpful.

I presented 'information' and 'facts', the merits of the case weren't discussed.

so

Red Herring
Ignoratio elenchi

(also known as: beside the point, misdirection [form of], changing the subject, false emphasis, the Chewbacca defense, irrelevant conclusion, irrelevant thesis, clouding the issue, ignorance of refutation)

Description: Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. While it is similar to the avoiding the issue fallacy, the red herring is a deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument.

Logical Form:

Argument A is presented by person 1.

Person 2 introduces argument B.

Argument A is abandoned.

Example #1:

Mike: It is morally wrong to cheat on your spouse, why on earth would you have done that?

Ken: But what is morality exactly?

Mike: It’s a code of conduct shared by cultures.

Ken: But who creates this code?...

Explanation: Ken has successfully derailed this conversation off of his sexual digressions to the deep, existential, discussion on morality.

Example #2:

Billy: How could the universe be 6000 years old when we know the speed of light, the distance of astronomical objects (13+ billion light years away), and the fact that the light has reached us[1]?

Marty: 6000 years is not a firm number. The universe can be as old as about 10,000 years.

Billy: How do you figure that?...

Explanation: Marty has succeeded in avoiding the devastating question by introducing a new topic for debate... shifting the young-earth creation timeline where it does not necessarily coincide with the Bible.

Exception: Using a red herring to divert attention away from your opponent's red herring, might work, but do two wrongs make a right?

Tip: Impress your friends by telling them that there is no such fish species as a "red herring;" rather it refers to a particularly pungent fish—typically a herring but not always—that has been strongly cured in brine and/or heavily smoked.

References:

Hurley, P. J. (2011). A Concise Introduction to Logic. Cengage Learning.

originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: DigginFoTroof
a reply to: FyreByrd

When I say something like 'make us feel guilty" how I preceive this issomething like a kid whose family moved to the US in 1944 and when kids get to HS iin the late 60's through the 70's they are told by the teachers basically how bad they are (meaning the whites) due to american't taking land from indians, slavery, civil war, etc. Depending upon the teacher it could be a militartistic black or some milktoast/limp wrist liberal who he himself is suffering so much personal guilt, it rubs off onto the students.

I'm sorry, I don't have energy to talk about his now, in the middle of project and have to sleep.

Well, when I got to the US and went to school in the 60s and 70s, I didn't get any of these teachers saying anything about how bad white people were. In fact all the history we learned was the dominate white culture and just how special it was - any other narrative was ignored in public schools in California.

REALLY? Wow that is good to hear. I can't speak to that time period but starting in the mid/late 80's when I started having REAL history classes and social studies, we were taught US history and it was mostly white based but we would be shown films, especially about WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Civil War, Jim Crow, civil rights era and even Vietnam protests. There was a MAJOR underlying tone that seemed to say that the US were bullies, exploiters and that ALL citizens were guilty of this (white citizens) and that the present generation was now responsible for all the actions of the past. If this was questioned, (7th to 9th graders) they were often made to feel themselves as bullies for not being "compassionate" enough to think we had been horrible in the past (and the kids weren't even justifying slavery, lynchings, or whatever, just questioning things that didn't make sense as taught).

My area, country & much of the state is German and there is strong German pride. When WWII was taught it was CLEARLY evident that they tried to make us all feel guilty of the crimes of the Germans even if our families had been in the US since 1820 - 1880's, and associated blonde hair blue eyes with being a Nazi (which 1/3+ of the class had buit not ONE teacher had blond hair and most had brown eyes - kind of odd IMO). They made a point of saying how EVIL even the civilian population was in Germany and went to lengths to say how atrocious the Germans were in general. It went on and on and any questioning was met with anger and contempt by the teacher. We learned quickly that we had to just listed and not question anything being taught even though much didn't make sense (many students had visited Germany and Austria by then and our stories were FAR from what we were taught). I can tell you that there was an active plan to make us kids carry a sense of guilt for events happening 35 years before we were born.

Then when we got to slavery, it was similar. Whites were being told how horrible we were for what we did, but my ancestors escaped bondage from the Ottomans' not long before WWI and came here, but that didn't matter, no teacher wanted to hear of any white suffering similar to blacks and when we said (most student's families came here after civil war) we weren't responsible for slavery and we didn't think WE (oursleves) owed reparations or ceding land, we got huge backlash and dismissed with questions to our questions about the subject (we weren't developed enough to handle that type of response, answering questions w/ questions made to make us feel dumb or uncaring).

This type of teaching was common in my county and surrounding counties, especially for those in school from 1980-2005. It was similar in colleges at that time as well.

There are MANY more examples that people have had to deal with over the years with no recourse and often negative consequences for daring to speak out against the injustice such as worse grades, lack of getting recommendations (while lesser qualified received them) and many others.

People have had enough and there is a very large movement to make things right again.

a reply to: FyreByrd

Very confused about your "red herring" post. IDK if that was directed at me or what. I have to say I has 1/2 asleep during the entire thread (nodded off a couple times) as I'd been up a LONG time doing a project, so I may have not been the most coherent in my posts and if that is the case I appologize. I never mean to use Red Herring's, strawmen, ad-hominem, etc in any post so if I resorted to that in this thread, I have to equate that to being extremely tired and maybe not explaining completely.

And again, I don't mean this to be about race or about "angry white people" but those are some topics which are often not discussed accurately in the media or by politicians, so that is why I used them (and was relevant to another thread I am in the middle of writing).

Other issues could be how horribly the school system is and how to fix it
or
What the real number of illegal immigrants are in the US and how we are going to ensure they can't vote, are deported when arrested, and will not get amnesty
or
Border security and how inadequate it is, how the rules of engagement are more dangerous for our officers than for drug mules and how that is going to change to protect our officers and our country.

LOTS of topics that the Right supports but could be helpd GREATLY by having a unified voice that can reach the entire nation, internationally, etc and also get on the MSM to speak about how we feel.

The reason your side is on the offensive all the time, is the fact you guys let the people with loudest voices speak for you aka the bigots.

originally posted by: DigginFoTroof
With the systematic attacks on all things conservative by much of the liberal media, liberal activist groups and liberal politicians, there needs to be some kind of balancing organization/power that can stand and speak for those on the right who have been harassed, threatened, brow-beaten, censored, mocked and ignored for the last 8+ years (even longer b/c it even happened under Bush). Now I guess you could say that the Tea Party did this to some extent but to me, that just wasn't really a speaking platform for the disaffected right. It seemed more like a political action party more intent on effecting change in political elections and such. An analogy I'd make is: gun owners have the NRA to speak for them and protect them and we need something similar to that to listen to "the right" and speak in a unified, centralized voice to the media, those in power, elected officials, etc.

It seems, to me at least, that many on the right have shied away from public debate (well the left never debates, they dodge or make personal attacks it seems), dialog, and protesting because it can have severe personal effects (which is illegal in many cases) from being attacked, being fired, loosing customers and many other issues, so people have had to stick to online platforms where they have somewhat a layer of protection from this bigoted hatred of them.

IDK what this type of group or organization would be called and I think it could even work as a lobby group, but it could also work as a media "spokesman" for the group to discuss issues important to them. Obviously there would have to be people who are the 'front men/women" of the organization who would go to rallies, news interviews and discussion sessions and there would probably be many of them. there would also have to be people who work directly with politicians in a lobbying capacity to tell the politicians just what this group wants, how they feel, etc.

I've looked for groups that currently fill this role and it really only seems that there are the Dem's and Rep parties and IMO, the Rep party IS NOT doing their job in a proper manner and we need to have someone else working for our interest to hold the representatives feet to the fire and tell them what is NEEDED.

I'd like to know if there are groups that already do this and names if you know of them. What do you think of this idea and what would you like to see included in the "mission" of the group?

Also, the group doesn't have to be 100% cohesive on all issues conservative. Some people could be 100% against abortion while some could support medically necessity abortions or those up to week 15 (or whatever) - this is just to show that it won't be a monolithic group think. Some people could be avid racists but they have to have a voice as well (and it will be reflected appropriately and the amount of support - percent feeling as such - accurately stated as such) - but I think it would be a dis-service to exclude anyone from the group except maybe the most EXTREME of viewpoints (like ethnic cleansing or some such non-sense)...

How about "well regulated militia"?

originally posted by: DigginFoTroof

originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: DigginFoTroof
a reply to: FyreByrd

When I say something like 'make us feel guilty" how I preceive this issomething like a kid whose family moved to the US in 1944 and when kids get to HS iin the late 60's through the 70's they are told by the teachers basically how bad they are (meaning the whites) due to american't taking land from indians, slavery, civil war, etc. Depending upon the teacher it could be a militartistic black or some milktoast/limp wrist liberal who he himself is suffering so much personal guilt, it rubs off onto the students.

I'm sorry, I don't have energy to talk about his now, in the middle of project and have to sleep.

Well, when I got to the US and went to school in the 60s and 70s, I didn't get any of these teachers saying anything about how bad white people were. In fact all the history we learned was the dominate white culture and just how special it was - any other narrative was ignored in public schools in California.

REALLY? Wow that is good to hear. I can't speak to that time period but starting in the mid/late 80's when I started having REAL history classes and social studies, we were taught US history and it was mostly white based but we would be shown films, especially about WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Civil War, Jim Crow, civil rights era and even Vietnam protests. There was a MAJOR underlying tone that seemed to say that the US were bullies, exploiters and that ALL citizens were guilty of this (white citizens) and that the present generation was now responsible for all the actions of the past. If this was questioned, (7th to 9th graders) they were often made to feel themselves as bullies for not being "compassionate" enough to think we had been horrible in the past (and the kids weren't even justifying slavery, lynchings, or whatever, just questioning things that didn't make sense as taught).

My area, country & much of the state is German and there is strong German pride. When WWII was taught it was CLEARLY evident that they tried to make us all feel guilty of the crimes of the Germans even if our families had been in the US since 1820 - 1880's, and associated blonde hair blue eyes with being a Nazi (which 1/3+ of the class had buit not ONE teacher had blond hair and most had brown eyes - kind of odd IMO). They made a point of saying how EVIL even the civilian population was in Germany and went to lengths to say how atrocious the Germans were in general. It went on and on and any questioning was met with anger and contempt by the teacher. We learned quickly that we had to just listed and not question anything being taught even though much didn't make sense (many students had visited Germany and Austria by then and our stories were FAR from what we were taught). I can tell you that there was an active plan to make us kids carry a sense of guilt for events happening 35 years before we were born.

Then when we got to slavery, it was similar. Whites were being told how horrible we were for what we did, but my ancestors escaped bondage from the Ottomans' not long before WWI and came here, but that didn't matter, no teacher wanted to hear of any white suffering similar to blacks and when we said (most student's families came here after civil war) we weren't responsible for slavery and we didn't think WE (oursleves) owed reparations or ceding land, we got huge backlash and dismissed with questions to our questions about the subject (we weren't developed enough to handle that type of response, answering questions w/ questions made to make us feel dumb or uncaring).

This type of teaching was common in my county and surrounding counties, especially for those in school from 1980-2005. It was similar in colleges at that time as well.

There are MANY more examples that people have had to deal with over the years with no recourse and often negative consequences for daring to speak out against the injustice such as worse grades, lack of getting recommendations (while lesser qualified received them) and many others.

People have had enough and there is a very large movement to make things right again.

Man, I hate to say this, but white people HAVE done these horrible things. Thats not to say ALL WHITE PEOPLE are bad. And not all horrible things are done by white people, you just need to go back a little further in history. I believe the reality is much more nuanced and honestly, creepy. I believe psychopaths and narcissists are attracted to positions of power. Either that or, as the saying goes: Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Either way, there is a lengthy history of people (of all colors and races) doing some really f****d up things to people. Egyptians did horrible things for a thousand of years. The Mayans and the Aztecs would have numerous blood sacrifices of virgins and foreigners almost nightly. The Romans took over half the known world at one point. Currently, its been the USA crushing anyone who gets in its way for quite a while now. We enjoyed the biggest growth of the middle class probably in the history of the world after world war II. But we had to do this by crushing many third world countries.

I'm not sure if you've really took the time to look at what the CIA did to topple governments in dozens of countries, but it is some gruesome stuff. I'm not sure any of the countries we messed with were white, but I don't think thats due to racism, we were just going where we thought we could stop communism, or stop nationalization of resources, or where there wasn't a central bank set up. These all ended up being 3rd world countries because all of the first world countries had already been conquered decades or centuries ago. As a white guy of irish, german and russian descent, do I feel guilty for that? No... I have consistently been against killing people for profit. It pisses me off that we are doing that.

Now the economy isn't so amazing for most of us, doesn't matter what color your skin is. A dad can't work a single job and support a wife and 2 kids like he could in the 50s and 60s. A huge amount of white guys feel disempowered by feminists who might make more than them, or black people who feel they still get the short end of the stick or get killed by police more often than makes sense etc... and now there is no room to complain for the average white guy.

But i have to say this: join the fu***ng club. At least you weren't burned out of your house, or whipped in the streets, or killed for your political or religious beliefs. By all means, express how you feel... but don't forget your place in the grand scheme of things. We aren't living in mud huts drinking from puddles. I think you are taking this all a little personally, when a lot of it isn't about you. If women want to get paid equally with men, or unarmed black kids don't want to get shot... that has literally nothing to do with you unless you are in a position to stop this from happening.

I'll be curious to hear more about your thoughts on the matter.

originally posted by: Harpua

originally posted by: DigginFoTroof

originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: DigginFoTroof
a reply to: FyreByrd

When I say something like 'make us feel guilty" how I preceive this issomething like a kid whose family moved to the US in 1944 and when kids get to HS iin the late 60's through the 70's they are told by the teachers basically how bad they are (meaning the whites) due to american't taking land from indians, slavery, civil war, etc. Depending upon the teacher it could be a militartistic black or some milktoast/limp wrist liberal who he himself is suffering so much personal guilt, it rubs off onto the students.

I'm sorry, I don't have energy to talk about his now, in the middle of project and have to sleep.

Well, when I got to the US and went to school in the 60s and 70s, I didn't get any of these teachers saying anything about how bad white people were. In fact all the history we learned was the dominate white culture and just how special it was - any other narrative was ignored in public schools in California.

REALLY? Wow that is good to hear. I can't speak to that time period but starting in the mid/late 80's when I started having REAL history classes and social studies, we were taught US history and it was mostly white based but we would be shown films, especially about WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Civil War, Jim Crow, civil rights era and even Vietnam protests. There was a MAJOR underlying tone that seemed to say that the US were bullies, exploiters and that ALL citizens were guilty of this (white citizens) and that the present generation was now responsible for all the actions of the past. If this was questioned, (7th to 9th graders) they were often made to feel themselves as bullies for not being "compassionate" enough to think we had been horrible in the past (and the kids weren't even justifying slavery, lynchings, or whatever, just questioning things that didn't make sense as taught).

My area, country & much of the state is German and there is strong German pride. When WWII was taught it was CLEARLY evident that they tried to make us all feel guilty of the crimes of the Germans even if our families had been in the US since 1820 - 1880's, and associated blonde hair blue eyes with being a Nazi (which 1/3+ of the class had buit not ONE teacher had blond hair and most had brown eyes - kind of odd IMO). They made a point of saying how EVIL even the civilian population was in Germany and went to lengths to say how atrocious the Germans were in general. It went on and on and any questioning was met with anger and contempt by the teacher. We learned quickly that we had to just listed and not question anything being taught even though much didn't make sense (many students had visited Germany and Austria by then and our stories were FAR from what we were taught). I can tell you that there was an active plan to make us kids carry a sense of guilt for events happening 35 years before we were born.

Then when we got to slavery, it was similar. Whites were being told how horrible we were for what we did, but my ancestors escaped bondage from the Ottomans' not long before WWI and came here, but that didn't matter, no teacher wanted to hear of any white suffering similar to blacks and when we said (most student's families came here after civil war) we weren't responsible for slavery and we didn't think WE (oursleves) owed reparations or ceding land, we got huge backlash and dismissed with questions to our questions about the subject (we weren't developed enough to handle that type of response, answering questions w/ questions made to make us feel dumb or uncaring).

This type of teaching was common in my county and surrounding counties, especially for those in school from 1980-2005. It was similar in colleges at that time as well.

There are MANY more examples that people have had to deal with over the years with no recourse and often negative consequences for daring to speak out against the injustice such as worse grades, lack of getting recommendations (while lesser qualified received them) and many others.

People have had enough and there is a very large movement to make things right again.

Man, I hate to say this, but white people HAVE done these horrible things. Thats not to say ALL WHITE PEOPLE are bad. And not all horrible things are done by white people, you just need to go back a little further in history. I believe the reality is much more nuanced and honestly, creepy. I believe psychopaths and narcissists are attracted to positions of power. Either that or, as the saying goes: Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Either way, there is a lengthy history of people (of all colors and races) doing some really f****d up things to people. Egyptians did horrible things for a thousand of years. The Mayans and the Aztecs would have numerous blood sacrifices of virgins and foreigners almost nightly. The Romans took over half the known world at one point. Currently, its been the USA crushing anyone who gets in its way for quite a while now. We enjoyed the biggest growth of the middle class probably in the history of the world after world war II. But we had to do this by crushing many third world countries.

I'm not sure if you've really took the time to look at what the CIA did to topple governments in dozens of countries, but it is some gruesome stuff. I'm not sure any of the countries we messed with were white, but I don't think thats due to racism, we were just going where we thought we could stop communism, or stop nationalization of resources, or where there wasn't a central bank set up. These all ended up being 3rd world countries because all of the first world countries had already been conquered decades or centuries ago. As a white guy of irish, german and russian descent, do I feel guilty for that? No... I have consistently been against killing people for profit. It pisses me off that we are doing that.

Now the economy isn't so amazing for most of us, doesn't matter what color your skin is. A dad can't work a single job and support a wife and 2 kids like he could in the 50s and 60s. A huge amount of white guys feel disempowered by feminists who might make more than them, or black people who feel they still get the short end of the stick or get killed by police more often than makes sense etc... and now there is no room to complain for the average white guy.

But i have to say this: join the fu***ng club. At least you weren't burned out of your house, or whipped in the streets, or killed for your political or religious beliefs. By all means, express how you feel... but don't forget your place in the grand scheme of things. We aren't living in mud huts drinking from puddles. I think you are taking this all a little personally, when a lot of it isn't about you. If women want to get paid equally with men, or unarmed black kids don't want to get shot... that has literally nothing to do with you unless you are in a position to stop this from happening.

I'll be curious to hear more about your thoughts on the matter.

Yeah, like he said. It's not 200 yrs ago, it's now.

If you are white, the noble thing to do is seppuku.

On your knees in front of the #BLM and have joy behar as your 2nd.