Another Muslim atrocity. Must we embrace the peaceful muslim traditions?

originally posted by: enlightenedservant


That’s just as stupid as me asking you if you're ok with this incident from 2 weeks ago (HERE) where a man killed his wife, 2 kids, and then himself in a murder-suicide.

Children shot to death - with a gun. Probably much like the one the OP is holding so proudly in his avatar. Although there are some similarities to this discussion (blaming a whole group of people for the violent actions of a subset), it’s a subject for another thread.

originally posted by: intrepid
a reply to: noonebutme

To be honest it's the Arab/Persian Muslims they are always talking about. Not even close to the majority of Muslims but the entire religion gets slapped anyways.

Extremist attitudes can be just as prevalent among Muslims in other parts of the world. In fact Muslims in other parts of the world are more extreme in some cases, it really depends on what particular issue you're talking about.

Southeast Asian and sub-Saharan African Muslim support for Sharia is just about on par with Middle Eastern Muslims


Nearly half of Southeast Asian Muslims (45%) think Sharia should be enforced on non-Muslims. Middle East/North Africa was only slightly higher.


Religious judges overseeing family law is actually more popular among Southeast Asian Muslims and executing religious traitors has much more support among South Asian Muslims (which includes Bangladesh in this survey) than in the Middle East


Southeast Asian Muslims are again ahead in the "wife must obey husband" category. These two questions contradict each other so I'd love to see some analysis of this. 93% said she must obey her husband and 79% said women should have a right to choose whether they veil or not. Those numbers don't jive.


Southeast Asian Muslims are only 1% more supportive of a woman's right to divorce


Middle Easterners definitely lead the pack on suicide bombing

a reply to: intrepid

Qur'an 109, Pickthall translation

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: enlightenedservant


That’s just as stupid as me asking you if you're ok with this incident from 2 weeks ago (HERE) where a man killed his wife, 2 kids, and then himself in a murder-suicide.

Children shot to death - with a gun. Probably much like the one the OP is holding so proudly in his avatar.

Actually that's extremely unlikely since those guns are very rarely used in that type of crime. He's more likely to have used a handgun. Those pesky facts get in the way of the emotionalism sometimes.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: noonebutme

Nowhere in the Qur'an does it say that it's our job to convince nonbelievers of our beliefs.

Really?
Then how do you explain this?
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.

or this: Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: intrepid

Qur'an 109, Pickthall translation

Do you support Kayaluv's comment,"I know the Quran advocates for women owning their own businesses, owning property and being able to travel alone if they want."

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: enlightenedservant


That’s just as stupid as me asking you if you're ok with this incident from 2 weeks ago (HERE) where a man killed his wife, 2 kids, and then himself in a murder-suicide.

Children shot to death - with a gun. Probably much like the one the OP is holding so proudly in his avatar. Although there are some similarities to this discussion (blaming a whole group of people for the violent actions of a subset), it’s a subject for another thread.

You stated above," There are non-Islamics who have the same culture."
You have not answered the question," name some."
Is this because your wrong or is it that you can't comprehend the question?

Why should we tolerate Muslims based on a few bad apples killing people? The same reason we should tolerate guns despite the few bad apples using them to kill people.

I don't understand how you can paint Islam as "unacceptable" based on the actions of a few but then turn around and chastise anyone who paint guns as "unacceptable" based on the actions of a few. Both are equally dumb viewpoints yet some want to have their cake and eat it too.

Stop being a hypocrite.

a reply to: Violater1

1. You should post links when you quote things. Otherwise, you could just be making it up.

2. Tell what translation you're quoting, assuming you even know.

3. Neither of the passages you "quoted" says that we're required to convince nonbelievers of our beliefs. Did you even read them or what I posted?

4. I notice that wherever you got your first quote from intentionally left a few things out. I wonder why? Here's Surah 2, Ayats 190-193 in their entirety (Pickthall translation) so people can see what the Qur'an actually says there:

190. Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

191. And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

192. But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

193. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

How is that not self defense? It literally tells us not to start hostilities and to stop if our attackers stop first. Also, the "Inviolable Place of Worship" mentioned in Ayat 191 is the Kaaba, which is literally our holiest site on this entire planet. Now I wonder why your quote left this out?

If nonbelievers attacked Catholics at the Vatican, wouldn't they fight back? There are even churches where I live that allow guns in them for the exact same reason of self defense. so what's the problem here?

5. As for Surah 9, Ayat 5, that Surah's beginnings (Pickthall translation) are literally talking to the Prophet Muhammad about a treaty he made in his own times. It has absolutely nothing to do with me or any other Muslims after that. And the very next Ayat says the following:

6. And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.

Why did you or your link ignore that?

6. And the last one you "quoted" is also out of context. Here it is with its preceding Ayat (Pickthall translation):

28. O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.

29. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

I'll assume you don't know this, but the Kaaba was originally filled with idols from a different Abrahamic religion. The Prophet Muhammad cleansed it of its idols. These 2 Ayats are literally referring to that incident and the time period around it, which was 1400-ish years ago. It's literally talking about that year being the last year the idolators can do their services at the Kaaba.

I fail to see how any of those have anything to do with Muslims today being required to convince nonbelievers of our beliefs, which is the point I was making. Oh & for the record, I'm only responding right now because I have writer's block on 2 projects I'm working on. I'm hoping that some typing that isn't related to my projects will get the creative juices flowing again, and if that works, I'll start ignoring this thread again.

originally posted by: Violater1

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: intrepid

Qur'an 109, Pickthall translation

Do you support Kayaluv's comment,"I know the Quran advocates for women owning their own businesses, owning property and being able to travel alone if they want."

Why are you asking me so many questions about my religion? I don't know you, don't particularly like you, and have no inclination to jump through hoops to prove anything to you.

You can't even stay on topic in your own thread. If you make a separate thread asking a bunch of questions to any Muslim members, more Muslim members might be inclined to answer those questions. But your immature, accusatory tone is only making me want to ignore you again.

a reply to: Violater1

Are you saying that there has never been an incident like this acted out by an American? Why does this one incident define all of Islam when the same thing happening in an American household does't define all of America? Why the double standard? You're pretty much saying the same exact thing as those who want to ban guns, except with Muslims.

You're a hypocrite my friend. And yes, I realize there are those who believe the same except in the opposite direction and they're just as hypocritical as you.

Am I the only who actually read the linked article?

This is from 2017 - and, if you use the search function, had already been posted (multiple times).

But whatever, the anti-Muslim circlejerks are amusing.

Without even reading the article, the brigade of cheeky partisan one-liners dominates ATS once again.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

He's nit picking. Focusing on " There are non-Islamics who have the same culture." instead of the obvious Same THINGS in our cultures.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Why should we tolerate Muslims based on a few bad apples killing people? The same reason we should tolerate guns despite the few bad apples using them to kill people.

I don't understand how you can paint Islam as "unacceptable" based on the actions of a few but then turn around and chastise anyone who paint guns as "unacceptable" based on the actions of a few. Both are equally dumb viewpoints yet some want to have their cake and eat it too.

Stop being a hypocrite.

Are you going to argue the other side of the coin on this? The hypocrites who say we can't blame all Muslims on this (we're not) but then turn around and want to hold law-abiding gun owners responsible for the actions of criminals?

Somebody seems to have forgotten the "good" Christian parents who held their 13 children captive, chained and starved. Such models of American morality the Turpins are. And the Gutierrezes in Arizona with their captive kids. Or the guy in Virginia that murdered his baby for the insurance money. Or the guy in Oklahoma that murdered his baby to spite his ex. Or the wonderful Mormon chick who murdered her daughter & killed herself in Utah. Or the woman in Iowa who starved hers to death.

Yeah, utterly oozing morality in the US we are.

a reply to: face23785

You're a little late, I've already addressed that in my second post and called those people hypocrites as well.

In fact, I addressed it in the post you quoted.

Both are equally dumb viewpoints

a reply to: intrepid

It's best to ignore the stuff that negates the premise of the thread, right?

a reply to: Nyiah

Shhhh, we're ignoring the bad things that happen in American culture. Did you hear about that one Muslim though? How can we tolerate Islamic culture when ONE of them does something like that?

originally posted by: face23785

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Why should we tolerate Muslims based on a few bad apples killing people? The same reason we should tolerate guns despite the few bad apples using them to kill people.

I don't understand how you can paint Islam as "unacceptable" based on the actions of a few but then turn around and chastise anyone who paint guns as "unacceptable" based on the actions of a few. Both are equally dumb viewpoints yet some want to have their cake and eat it too.

Stop being a hypocrite.

Are you going to argue the other side of the coin on this? The hypocrites who say we can't blame all Muslims on this (we're not) but then turn around and want to hold law-abiding gun owners responsible for the actions of criminals?

OUCH!

originally posted by: Nyiah
Somebody seems to have forgotten the "good" Christian parents who held their 13 children captive, chained and starved. Such models of American morality the Turpins are. And the Gutierrezes in Arizona with their captive kids. Or the guy in Virginia that murdered his baby for the insurance money. Or the guy in Oklahoma that murdered his baby to spite his ex. Or the wonderful Moron chick who murdered her daughter & killed herself in Utah. Or the woman in Iowa who starved hers to death.

Yeah, utterly oozing morality in the US we are.

I get this argument, but the thing is 'barbaric Islam' is widely practiced / tolerated by a majority of Mainstream Global Islam, while your example there is in no way part of Mainstream Global Christianity. That those people happened to be Christian's doesnt say much when locking up and torturing your kids for years on end isnt a cultural thing anywhere or (well i hope not lol) in any religious text.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

but the thing is 'barbaric Islam' is widely practiced / tolerated by a majority of Mainstream Global Islam

Could you provide some data for this? Because it sounds like you're just shooting from the hip. I've never heard a Muslim condone killing family members, I'm assuming you haven't either. If you can find information showing a Muslim condoning or encouraging something like this then I'm sure I could easily find someone condoning any act of violence.