Drug rehab or jail, which is the better use of taxes?

a reply to: redhorse
It seems we share sentiments

Back when I got hooked on prescription chems, I did some things considered evil by most, like running a co-op for other chemically dependent people to drive down prices and vet the quality.

Long story short, I was found out and arrested and they, luckily, had a new program where addicts they deemed salvageable (some Uni and white, I'd imagine in my case) were offered mandatory treatment rather than prison.

I consider myself "recovered" now and pay taxes... and I'm one of the few of the group who is still alive and or not rotting in prison... and to be clear, the folks from our consortium were educated, sweet people with a medical problem who deserved to live.

Most druggies and addicts are decent people with either deep seated trauma they are self medicating, or smart, curious explorers trying everything reality has to offer... and they do not belong in prison.

The same cannot be said for a great number of undercover police, CIA agents funding via illegal drug trafficking (with rumors of human trafficking as well) and some judges.

If you put someone through rehab for drugs instead of prison, then their drug abuse won't stain their job search with a criminal record.

Alot of people go right back into crime after prison, since they can't find a job that wants to hire them.

That person now. has a legitimate source of income, which means more tax revenue as well.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

If a person makes the deliberate, conscious decision to use drugs that have ill effects or addictive qualities then they should be responsible for themselves.


It should not be the responsibility of the government to nanny adults.

There is rarely a 'deliberate and conscious' decision when it comes to addictive behavior. When first 'sampled' it's usually the very human drive (mostly unconscious) to belong, to be like others, a matter of prestige. Once the addiction sets in (substance or process) there is no rational thought.

You offer no rational solutions and show no understanding of the subject. You know it's okay not to have an opinion on things you don't know anything about, in fact, it is a sign of metal health.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

I haven't gotten through all the posts. I will, so I ask your pardon if this perspective has been offered.

Addictions to substances and processes (think video game addiction, or sex addiction) are a symptom of underlying disorders, largely societal. (I acknowledge that there has always been a small percentage of 'addicts' in the world.)

Dr. Gabor Mate theorizes that the underlying cause, if you will, is the prevalence of attachment disorders in Western societies. An attachment disorder is defined:

Attachment Disorder is defined as the condition in which individuals have difficulty forming lasting relationships. They often show nearly a complete lack of ability to be genuinely affectionate with others. They typically fail to develop a conscience and do not learn to trust.

www.attachment.org...

They happen when a child doesn't closely bond with a caregiver in the early days, weeks, months and years of life. Interruptions of bonding are caused by many things.

The mechanization and extractive model of modern western 'life' that places profit before people serves as a large cause in the this lack of human bonding initially and then denigrates the 'value' of human interrelationships throughout the lifespan.

Treatment and harm reduction (individually & communally - medically, criminally and economically) are cost effective interim strategies but to 'solve' the problem will require addressing the societal incentives that promote lack of human bonding.

The recent drop in life expectancy and increased suicides supports this theory as social safety net drastically erode.

A list of 'symptoms' for attachment disorders, how many do you have?

Attachment Disorder Symptoms

Superficially engaging & charming
Lack of eye contact on parents’ terms
Indiscriminately affectionate with strangers
Not affectionate on parents’ terms (not ‘cuddly’)
Destructive to self, others and material things (‘accident prone’)
Cruelty to animals
Lying about the obvious (‘crazy’ lying)
Stealing
No impulse controls (frequently acts hyperactive)
Learning Lags
Lack of cause-and-effect thinking
Lack of conscience
Abnormal eating patterns
Poor peer relationships
Preoccupation with fire
Preoccupation with blood & gore
Persistent nonsense questions & chatter
Inappropriately demanding & clingy
Abnormal speech patterns
Triangulation of adults
False allegations of abuse
Presumptive entitlement issues
Parents appear hostile and angry

Also from:

www.attachment.org...

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

If a person makes the deliberate, conscious decision to use drugs that have ill effects or addictive qualities then they should be responsible for themselves.


It should not be the responsibility of the government to nanny adults.

Exactly. Nature has failsafes in place to self correct these problem if mankind would only set aside the arrogance involved in artificially blocking nature's course. I've always been highly amused at the fact that any country with legal abortion uses the old "it's their body, so it is their choice" argument to justify it's legality, yet watch how the same nincompoops bend over backward to save others from their choices when such choice only directly impact the sole individual who decides to hang a needle out of their arm or tie a rope from their rafters.

If someone wishes to exit this world, we should hold the door open for them, not waste precious time and resources that could be used on people who are actually productive, valued members of society in trying to save these idjits from their own lunacy.

It isn't about saving 'people from themslves' but about saving society as a whole.

I do search engine optimization for a living. We have rehab sites joining our system every week. Seems ,they have sprung up every.

It is so bad, Google no longer allows rehab sites to use adwords.

I have a couple of points to make to those advocating mandatory treatment for those arrested for personal drug use.

In fact, Dr. Carl Hart, Professor of Psychology and Psychiatry at Columbia University, has already articulated my first point, and he said it better than I could;

"The majority of recreational drug users don’t have a drug problem. So, advocating treatment for such individuals – as if this is a compassionate alternative – is really ignorance parading as compassion."

My other point is this - often times when individuals are up in front of the courts charged with personal drug possession, they are offered two options; Either you go to jail, or you go into treatment - whether you need it or not.

This approach skews otherwise valuable data on the numbers of problematic drug users actually seeking treatment.

As I've previously mentioned I'm an active, and somewhat successful, cannabis law reform activist, and one argument I often hear perpetuated by prohibitionists is "look how many young people are in treatment for cannabis use, it's a dangerous drug and anyone who uses it will develop psychosis and need treatment, the data proves it".

The data doesn't mean squat when the majority of those in treatment are only there because it was a favourable alternative to incarceration.

Neither

Not my problem its the problem of the individual it shouldnt be illegal

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

If a person makes the deliberate, conscious decision to use drugs that have ill effects or addictive qualities then they should be responsible for themselves.


It should not be the responsibility of the government to nanny adults.

Given that addiction is a PROVEN DISEASE, what you just said is akin to blaming cancer sufferers for daring to get cancer and then punishing them for doing so.

originally posted by: FyreByrd
a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

I haven't gotten through all the posts. I will, so I ask your pardon if this perspective has been offered.

Addictions to substances and processes (think video game addiction, or sex addiction) are a symptom of underlying disorders, largely societal. (I acknowledge that there has always been a small percentage of 'addicts' in the world.)

Dr. Gabor Mate theorizes that the underlying cause, if you will, is the prevalence of attachment disorders in Western societies.

Thanks for the reply, interesting thoughts
I'm sure such attachment disorders are the root cause for many people, but addiction reasons can be complex and differ wildly between people.
In 2001 I was in a well paid job, life was happy, and I had just sold a house making £80,000 profit. Stupidly I started partying too much, drinking champagne and using coc aine while night clubbing at weekends. Shortly afterwards I was having a line or two on Monday mornings to help wake me up for work. Fast forward a few weeks and I was doing coke at work every couple of hours, and became a daily user. I realised I was addicted because I couldn't face the come down of being 'straight' again so continued using.

The wake up call for me was when my bank balance had lost a digit and was nine thousand and something £'s. I remember being at the ATM and my heart sank, but I was of the mind that I'd blown so much money another 9 grand didn't really matter so continued.
I set myself a date based on my daily coc aine useage (curiously 31/12/2001) and decided to blow the lot by then, and then stop. £80,000 in less than 9 months.

But stop I did, with flu like symptoms for weeks, and yes I was miserable for a long time after that. I had to stay away from parties and certain friends for nearly a year, even the thought of being offered a line excited me like a true addict. Even now if I'm at a party and offered some coke it's really a struggle to say no, that feeling of excitement, raised heart rate, just because I still want that feeling again.

I don't know how I'd describe my addiction but it's not to escape from anything, just the lust for that feeling of being coked up again. Luckily I know how weak willed I am so don't fall to the temptation in case I make the same mistakes again and blow all my money.

I won't lie though, those 9 months were a fantastic experience for the time it lasted. Shallow of course, but fantastic looking back with a guilty smile inside.

originally posted by: MerkabaTribeEntity
I have a couple of points to make to those advocating mandatory treatment for those arrested for personal drug use.

In fact, Dr. Carl Hart, Professor of Psychology and Psychiatry at Columbia University, has already articulated my first point, and he said it better than I could;

"The majority of recreational drug users don’t have a drug problem. So, advocating treatment for such individuals – as if this is a compassionate alternative – is really ignorance parading as compassion."

My other point is this - often times when individuals are up in front of the courts charged with personal drug possession, they are offered two options; Either you go to jail, or you go into treatment - whether you need it or not.

This approach skews otherwise valuable data on the numbers of problematic drug users actually seeking treatment.

As I've previously mentioned I'm an active, and somewhat successful, cannabis law reform activist, and one argument I often hear perpetuated by prohibitionists is "look how many young people are in treatment for cannabis use, it's a dangerous drug and anyone who uses it will develop psychosis and need treatment, the data proves it".

The data doesn't mean squat when the majority of those in treatment are only there because it was a favourable alternative to incarceration.

Excellent points, I agree.
Police tend not to arrest for personal use cannabis in the UK, and you really need a lot or be selling to do jail time. Even growing it here if you have less than 9 plants it is merely destroyed and usually a caution. Repeat offences though it gets more severe.

Class A drugs however is a guaranteed arrest but if only personal amounts, again court is highly unlikely, expect a caution, or a penalty fine, I think it's around £80 these days.
The main source of work for police is the criminal activities of problem users such as theft and prostitution, or violent behaviour. That's what users go to prison for, and it is those problem users I wish our courts had the option to force rehab instead of prison.

From what I've read in this thread US courts force rehab for personal use non-problem users? That doesn't happen here because it isn't an option for judges to choose. I agree, it seems ridiculous. My son got caught with a few joints worth of MJ when he was 17 and the cops just brought him home so he could have a row off his mother lol, no caution, no record.

Heck if the cops arrested everyone in my area with personal use possession the cells would be full and they wouldn't have time for anything else. I actuall forget cannabis is illegal to be fair it's so ignored by cops these days.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

Absolutely agree. I should state that the majority of my own experiences (not research based) are from my home island of Jersey.

SWIM was once arrested and charged for possession of 0.03g of henna tainted resin (he didn't even know it was on his person at the time), although things seem to be improving muchly in recent years.

Tic-toc.

originally posted by: MerkabaTribeEntity
a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

SWIM was once arrested and charged for possession of 0.03g of henna tainted resin (he didn't even know it was on his person at the time), although things seem to be improving muchly in recent years.

Wow! 0.03g??? A cop here would laugh at that, I've had cops give me back more than that after a search, saying "I won't take your last smoke" with a wink.


I wish there was more drug addiction services here though, as I've said before, every addict I've ever known has said they want help and rehab, but the only services really available are private, which pretty much excludes any addicts withiout rich families to help. Personally I'd pay more taxes if it was earmarked specifically for addiction and mental health...I won't hold my breath though with our current government.

Prohibition is wrong, it never works and needs to be stopped. It is a gross human rights violation to dictate what people can do with their bodies.

Any crime associated with drug use which is not directly a result of prohibition would already be crime (assault, theft, etc).

For all of human history plants and drugs were commodities like anything else and as many still are. Prohibition only benefits corrupt government, black markets and gangs.

We don't need to "legalize" substances which are not inherently "illegal" in the natural world. We need to end prohibition.
If people want to spend tax dollars on drug rehabs that's up to them I guess but would be better left to charities in my opinion. Law enforcement could focus on real crime, contents of people's blood stream notwithstanding.

Declaring nature "against the law" is obnoxious and arrogant.

The war on drugs which was thought up by Nixon’s team for a re-election platform , never actually considered the betterment of the individual.

“ lock them up because drugs are bad. Vote for me and the war on drugs. If you don’t , your voting for kids to be on drugs”. ( paraphrasing).

Unfortunately the UN adopted this war on drugs , “ forced abstinence “ and it was pounded into everyone’s head that drugs are an epidemic, anyone that does drugs is bad, anyone that is in possession of drugs ( no matter Amount) is bad. Throw them all in jail.

The war on drugs and forced abstinence may have actually been single worst approach to actually helping an individual that has become physically dependent on a substance.

Studies show that people stay clean when THEY want to get clean. They can’t be forced. It’s psychology.

Incarcerating people for drugs is a huge waste of money but more importantly the justice system clogs up, LEO are made into militarized troopers, federal funds that fund local , state LEO fund more if you make more drug busts encouraging LEO to “juke their stats” and bust small hand to hand drug deal because they are easy.

Most of all the illegality of the drug finances everything from ISIS, to human traffickers, to Mexican CArtels.

It’s simple,
Make them all legal
Federally run and supplied
A cut of federal profits go to facilities for safe use of drugs, as well as therapy and treatment
LEOs go back to doing real police work.
The truly bad people of the world have just lost 70% to 100% of their funding ( ball park number stated in NYT article about the Sinaloa Cartel) ISIS, OC, CArtels, etc.

originally posted by: 0001391
Prohibition is wrong, it never works and needs to be stopped. It is a gross human rights violation to dictate what people can do with their bodies.

Any crime associated with drug use which is not directly a result of prohibition would already be crime (assault, theft, etc).

For all of human history plants and drugs were commodities like anything else and as many still are. Prohibition only benefits corrupt government, black markets and gangs.

We don't need to "legalize" substances which are not inherently "illegal" in the natural world. We need to end prohibition.
If people want to spend tax dollars on drug rehabs that's up to them I guess but would be better left to charities in my opinion. Law enforcement could focus on real crime, contents of people's blood stream notwithstanding.

Declaring nature "against the law" is obnoxious and arrogant.

Well said. I always shake my head when I see a politician or worse a high ranking LEO on TV spouting how important the War on Drugs is. And that we have to get tougher and that they are really making progress.

Especially when it’s a LEO because I know that he definitely knows the War on Drugs never worked. And he is just being a political puppet for an up coming election and serving his own agenda .

You could even argue that the War on Drugs was much more harmful than the actual drugs themselves.

Who are these drug addicts anyway?

They are mothers, fathers, daughters, sons, granddaughters, grandsons, doctors, lawyers, carpenters, plumbers, church leaders, politicians and ............................ They sit next to you in church (whether you admit it or not), at work and many of them are invisible to others. The only difference between the addict who puts on a suit and tie every day and goes to their office and an addict living in a cardboard box, is money.

The highly respected community leader who inhales a few bottles of wine every night or sucks down a bottle of expensive scotch is exactly the same as any addict on the streets. Yet society helps one and throws away the other. What does that say about us and how our laws are applied?

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
I live in a beautiful part of Britain but like everywhere we have our own problems with drugs.
Some days there have been all our available ambulances treating people in a catatonic state under the influence of synthetic drugs (which were recently criminalised).
Because of the stress to our paramedic service the informal advice now is that if the person is not in immediate danger, and you feel safe to do so, please wait with them for the reasonably short period it takes for the effects to wear off, and/or put them in the recovery position if they are laying on their back for example. I've done this a few times and after 20 minutes or so when they can talk again, keep them safe until they are able to look after themselves again.

Today, walking home from shopping, I saw a girl slouched on the floor off her head on something. I made contact, she could just about make eye contact and nod to my questions so I sat with her to make sure she was safe. Once she came around I gave her water from my shopping plus a cake for the energy boost, then helped her to the nearby homeless refuge.
I swear, she broke my heart, no older than 18 and vulnerable in such a mess.

Anyway it got me thinking and basic residential drug/alcohol detox rehab in my area averages around £1000 per week with typical stays being up to 3 months depending on condition. There are next to zero bed spaces available on the NHS though, so the average addict is unlikely to be able to fund it privately. This causes a circle effect of crime, imprisonment, released to homelessness, then back to the drugs and crime.

I then looked at the average costs of keeping a prisoner in the UK. It costs an initial average of £65,000 to imprison a person in this country once police, court costs and all the other steps are taken into account. After that it costs a further £40,000 for each year they spend incarcerated.
It's dead money. What a crappy business model, keep them off the streets in prisons with easy access to drugs, release them then rinse and repeat because their lives are still a mess.

I can only speak for myself but I would prefer my taxes being spent treating these people with a view to them becoming contributing members of society again. Heck, that initial 65 grand imprisoning someone would easily pay for 3 months residential rehab, aftercare support, and set up in a nice room in a shared house to try rebuild their lives...and with decent change left over.

If prison offered proper detox and rehab that would even be a start, but I think treatment which is cheaper than punishment is the obvious no brainer to solve these tragic societal issues.

All thoughts welcome, even if you think I'm a liberal do-gooder who knows nothing, it's always interesting to hear opposing views.

Just ship them all to a remote island and let them abuse drugs with each other until they whither and die.