Drug rehab or jail, which is the better use of taxes?

originally posted by: CharlesT
For starters this BS drug war needs to come to an end and get the financial gain out of the drug trade. Then walk right on by the addicts in the streets. They can't be helped if they are not willing to do it on their own. It sounds uncivilized but look away and let them kill themselves.

I can't walk on by. I'll stop and keep any vulnerable human safe who I see off their head in my streets.
I understand your perspective, and many people walk by here where I am...I just can't though.
I even see people looking at me with disgust when I'm engaging with someone in a bad way on the floor, but no matter, personal feelings guide us all and mine make me stop and care...maybe a curse but better than the guilt I'd feel if I walked past without asking "Are you okay?".

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

No worries boss, this kind of thing needs discussing, for sure.

Great thread, and many great responses!

a reply to: MerkabaTribeEntity

Some fantastic responses, it seems most of us are realising that the status quo of prison rinse repeat just simply doesn't work.
The decriminalisation sentiments are spot on as well, especially on the Portugal model. Steal the trade from the gangs and give it to Boots who will pay taxes.
...for non UK members, 'Boots' are the major pharmacy chain here and I bet my life the corporate bosses would chase that decriminalised drug sale gig in a heartbeat. Users get exact milligramme doses, the govt gets the taxes, and Boots make a bit of profit while providing a service far better and safer for the users than dodgy John who's dealing from some bedsit while funding his own habit.

I feel bad for addicts, but at some point you have to say enough is enough. I'd much prefer putting someone in rehab over jail. However, let's be clear. Few people are thrown in jail solely because of drug possession. They are in jail because of the crimes they commit while using drugs such as theft. Also, most of these guys are repeat offenders or have major parole violations.

I support legalization because it would do a lot to lower crime on both supply and demand sides of the equation.

a reply to: Edumakated
Agreed, decriminalisation and taxed doses supplied by licensed pharmicists is the way forward in my opinion.
Divert an amount from the prison budget towards secure rehab for those who want it, then lock up those who simply cannot be helped, I could see a massive improvement on the status quo which continues to just, well, fail.

I know this is a debating site where we mostly strive for logical argument, so for the record, yes, I'm in logic mode still, but the young girl today absolutely broke my heart, could've been my young adult child and people walked past her before I reached her.
I'll admit my emotions tonight inspired my post and continue to inspire my thoughts for our fellow humans.

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: Edumakated
Agreed, decriminalisation and taxed doses supplied by licensed pharmicists is the way forward in my opinion.
Divert an amount from the prison budget towards secure rehab for those who want it, then lock up those who simply cannot be helped, I could see a massive improvement on the status quo which continues to just, well, fail.

Yeah, that is what I'd do. Although I do think jail should be rehab focused, not punishment focused except for the worst case offenders.

a reply to: Edumakated

Massively agreed, our underfunded prisons are a mess, rife with drugs and guards just struggling to keep order let alone find contraband. Rehab in prison is a massive need if we want to fix the root problems affecting society.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

Anyway it got me thinking and basic residential drug/alcohol detox rehab in my area averages around £1000 per week with typical stays being up to 3 months depending on condition. There are next to zero bed spaces available on the NHS though, so the average addict is unlikely to be able to fund it privately. This causes a circle effect of crime, imprisonment, released to homelessness, then back to the drugs and crime.

Easy to get clean, only one in ten stay clean. Same for cigarettes and alcohol. Quitting is a process, staying quit takes a lifetime.

Addiction to substance abuse took a lifetime, so will quitting.

The process involves rehab, jails, institutions and hopefully, not death. If the addict keeps getting back up and trying to quit again, and again... good for them.

Criminals? Outsource prisons to Russian Siberia. Build a little town out there along the railroad tracks. You don't even need to put up walls with the nearest town being 1,000 miles away and nobody speaking English. Even if they do have access to drugs while they're there, they won't hurt anyone but themselves.

Drugs? Isolate them in an old army camp and give them all the drugs they want for free. Give them three hots and a cot, medical supervision, clothes, etc. Maybe even throw in some counseling. They can stay as long as they want, but if they want to leave they have to pass a drug test three times/months in a row. Anybody who can stay clean in a place where your drugs are free is probably okay to leave.

Compared to all the costs of the current system, it would cost pennies on the pound (or dollar, or what have you) and might actually help people. Giving away nice, safe, government manufactured drugs would also gut the illegal drug trade, further reducing law enforcement costs.

a reply to: intrptr
Agreed
I'm more than happy for my taxes to fund social care at the rate incarceration is funded, because it would make a massive difference.
...and off-topic but a member chatted with me earlier about the ridiculous waste of money on Britain's 'nuclear deterrant' that budget would save many more millions of lives if spent on people.

originally posted by: Blue Shift
Criminals? Outsource prisons to Russian Siberia. Build a little town out there along the railroad tracks. You don't even need to put up walls with the nearest town being 1,000 miles away and nobody speaking English. Even if they do have access to drugs while they're there, they won't hurt anyone but themselves.

That kind of Russian collusion will get you under a special prosecutor investigation, and sent off to a Canadian prison work camp, sir!

a reply to: Blue Shift

Wow, I totally get your idea! It is on the extreme end of ideas as I'm sure you'll admit, but yeah I could see it work for some mates I've lost through their addictions. I couldn't help them, I could only remain their friend, but one in particular I know it would have been a good option for him, and in the right circumstances would have meant he would be alive today.

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
That kind of Russian collusion will get you under a special prosecutor investigation, and sent off to a Canadian prison work camp, sir!

So in a Canadian prison work camp, do they apologize all the time for making you work, and sometimes even help out? "Dig that hole, eh? Here, let me give you a hand."

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
That kind of Russian collusion will get you under a special prosecutor investigation, and sent off to a Canadian prison work camp, sir!

So in a Canadian prison work camp, do they apologize all the time for making you work, and sometimes even help out? "Dig that hole, eh? Here, let me give you a hand."

They're too busy arguing to be so kind.

Treatment

Speaking as someone who had a family member (SIL) go through this crap.. well, I'd have never locked up one single drug user if I had known then what I know now. Especially given the level of discretion that exists at that level, and the number of treatment programs out there combined with the legal framework for involuntary mental health orders

That said, I generally oppose government regulation of any substance, item or otherwise. Individuals should be intelligent enough to know what will and will not kill them, and if not then again freedom/liberty comes at a cost.

I also must point out regulation is not the "norm" as any substance/item/weapon/otherwise is concerned. Prior to the turn of the 20th century, there was zero regulation of above named items.

(last paragraph and legal statements apply to US specifically)

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: butcherguy
Why spend tax dollars on anything related to drugs?

We should be raking in tax dollars from drug sales.

Legalize and tax the sale of all drugs.

Then we don't need to put people in jail over drug sales/use.

Why spend tax dollars trying to rehabilitate people that decided to use drugs on their on volition?

The exact same thought process went into our gun laws.

Ooh that's an interesting twist!
I have no comment as guns n stuff are different here with no written constitution, but if US members wanna bite to that I'd be interested in reading it if there are parallels to be drawn in considering legislation.

My point was the government can pass all the laws they want but when those laws have no impact on the problem then the laws should be reviewed.

The problem with the US war on drugs is we are funding both sides of it and you wont win by doing that. My gun comment was we have all these laws about who can buy them and where they can be carried however they always seem to ignore the fact a criminal doesnt care about the law.

Only the law abiding citizen does so IE the gun laws target the wrong part of the problem.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Yep I get that outlook
...just glad we separate 'civilians' in the criminal world mindset where I live...nobody does someone's family over unless it is over big time profit and even then it's still needing a major crime to justify it.

How about neither, since neither one works?

Get them to go to church. That's free.

And I can hear the Atheist sphincters pucker up now.

Hey, you want to solve the problem or not?

...and for the record, I stand for peaceful society, so yep, I massively appreciate the work you constables do, but I look at you the same as me, just another human wishing to help others.
...don't push your percieved powers though, I'll always use reasonable force to defend myself if I fear for my safety.