Drug rehab or jail, which is the better use of taxes?

a reply to: Kandinsky

I massively agree about the rehab rehab rehab...jail.
Everything you've said I agree with to be fair with my own similar anecdotal experiences.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

I personally would prefer the rehab angle first, if no 'severe' (?) crime had been committed. If that doesn't work then I suppose prison IS the only option for those that continue to break the law to support their habit.
The burden is great on society as a whole to house these individuals and the burden is great on those that love them. I can only speak from personal experiences of course, but to answer your question I would like to see rehab as an offer at least to some and continued support for some time after that or after they've served their prison sentence.
One issue I've found is that someone released with a felony record has a very difficult time securing employment and therefore insurance to seek a Dr. or any services for treatment after getting out.
It's a very good topic for discussion, IMO, for you all in the UK or the world in general.

originally posted by: Blaine91555
a reply to: intrepid

The activity is a symptom of the addiction. You remove the addiction and I believe most would never have done anything to begin with. To remove the addiction, means dealing with what caused them to start self medicating in the first place and jail is the antithesis of that IMO. What's the point of it?

I suspect the first time addicts are arrested, rehabilitation would be far more effective in helping them if they never went to jail and instead went straight to a treatment facility for at least 3 months. From being involved with a treatment program I do know, reality is that more like 6 months should actually be the minimum. It' takes 6 months at least to change behavior.

You deal with it early on, the later problems of stealing or other crimes to support habits would never happen to begin with.

It's not just the legal system that is at fault though IMO. The other issue is family and friends enabling the behavior or covering up for it, instead of immediately seeking help for their loved one, even if it has to be court ordered.

You would have written a better OP than I did!

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
LMAO, was waiting for your funny one liner

No worries. I was sitting here with my friend and felt I needed to reply so I said to him, 'Watch this, oh, and hold my meth pipe...'.

a reply to: butcherguy

Yea, thanks.

Pretty much what I was thinking.
Sad really.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy
As an aside for you, in todays paper Guernsey are just about to make assisted suicide legal. Though guernsey is a crown dependant the word is that it is being used as a template to roll it out on the mainland.

a reply to: Blaine91555

Helluva post man. Spot on. I was just curious if folks were getting jailed just for taking drugs.

a reply to: TNMockingbird

Yes, rehab first, and properly funded with aftercare and support so the folk can get a job and rebuild their lives again.
I too have watched friends go in and out of prison then die of their addictions over the years. Prison doesn't work, it just keeps the problem away from society.
One particular mate was addicted to heroin, I never facilitated his addiction when he was rattling, bought him alcohol to ease things slightly though, but he was crying out for secure rehab free from drugs like they are in prison. He'd be released and back on the smack within an hour...was tragic watching him slowly die...his son is one of my sons best mates and when we meet we always have that shared sadness in our eyes for the man we both loved.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

Yeah, it's not like we're all for giving up on them, but some have given up on trying to get clean.

It's worse in poor areas where you're constantly on edge about being robbed. Everything has to be locked down and contents insurance is sky high to the point of being unaffordable. Vehicle break-ins etc. It's a pisser having to replace a car's window after some chancer asshole puts it through on the off chance something sellable is in the glovebox. They'll steal a man's livelihood (tools, drills etc) and not give it a second thought.

3-4 bagheads need to raise ~£400 daily which is a lot of thieving with the 5-10% rule.

a reply to: Kandinsky

Was talking with a mate about the 10% rule of stolen resale the other day.
Some people will always be thieves regardless of their addiction, so I'm more than happy for them to be locked up, especially tool thieves.
The status quo isn't working though and I'm convinced diverting X amount of the prison budgets into rehab and mental health services will save us all money in the longer term if first offenders are targeted. Once it's prison, then we've lost the person from ever being part of society as things currently stand.

originally posted by: butcherguy
Why spend tax dollars on anything related to drugs?

We should be raking in tax dollars from drug sales.

Legalize and tax the sale of all drugs.

Then we don't need to put people in jail over drug sales/use.

Why spend tax dollars trying to rehabilitate people that decided to use drugs on their on volition?

The exact same thought process went into our gun laws.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: butcherguy
Why spend tax dollars on anything related to drugs?

We should be raking in tax dollars from drug sales.

Legalize and tax the sale of all drugs.

Then we don't need to put people in jail over drug sales/use.

Why spend tax dollars trying to rehabilitate people that decided to use drugs on their on volition?

The exact same thought process went into our gun laws.

Ooh that's an interesting twist!
I have no comment as guns n stuff are different here with no written constitution, but if US members wanna bite to that I'd be interested in reading it if there are parallels to be drawn in considering legislation.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

I agree with what you're saying, but what you're really talking about here is data on a macro scale, as in looking at year-on-year data, or five years worth of data, if you know what I mean. These figures always seem to go up and down year-on-year, from substance to substance and demographic to demographic.

For sure, heroin use has tapered off at times, but then we had problems with fentanyl, which is even more deadly. Then MDMA use tapered off, but that was due to the rise in availability of cheaper, often deadlier, and more readily available new psychoactive substances (NSP's/legal highs). Then, the use of NSP's tapered off, but only because of the MDMA producers in Europe wanting to wrestle their market back, so they simply increased potency to make them more appealing to users, which in turn has led to further issues. The banning of NSP's also helped steer users back into the arms of MDMA users.

What I was referring to is the bigger picture/timeline. If we step back and analyse the data for the last forty years or so and look at the numbers of individuals using drugs, the proportion of problematic drug users and the general number of different drugs available overall, we see that drug use and availability in England and Wales has grown since the introduction of the 1971 misuse of drugs act.

I see a trend in overall drug use, and it goes up. Without radical reform, I believe it will continue to do so.

These are just my own thoughts and observations.

We have drug courts specificly for addicts. They keep people off drugs and out of prison. Its saved lives.

a reply to: butcherguy

I was involved in the 1980's with a program with a high success rate. I have no idea what the averages are, however we got annual reports comparing long term success rates (3 years out) for different programs. Alcoholism and drug addiction were treated the same.

12 Step programs had horrible success rates and nearly %100 failure 3 years out. Short term programs that used negativity therapy, long ago abandoned by real programs, had high short term success and dismal results just 6 months out. Those programs are expensive and worthless IMO. You can't beat an addiction in a few days and expect to succeed.

I followed the stats regarding those who went through while I was counseling and the 3 year rate was 23 out of 28 I believe were still employed and clean 3 years in. To do that though involved 6 to 12 months inpatient treatment. When they left they had a job, bank account and enough money to get by for 3 months due to the nature of the program. It was free and funded by many churches and other groups. Full rehabilitation including detox, school if needed, place to live and help finding work and they had to work for at least 3 to 6 months before they were asked to leave.

Long story short, to help people it's not just about getting them clean. They have to change their habits and it takes at least 6 months to do that. Anything less is asking for failure and if they don't have a home and job when they come out, they will likely fail.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

UK prisons are in a bad way for the past few years so they're not a great solution for many things.

Scandinavians and Dutch have the better systems imo. They'll provide the drugs/alcohol in a controlled way that reduces their need to be anti-social or commit crimes.

A lot of people see it as 'rewarding bad behaviour' even though the long-term outcomes are better than time served.

a reply to: jjkenobi

That's a good idea, but I'm afraid sometimes rehab can also be like a "college" for druggies. Perhaps ultimately the way to go is legalization, taxation and regulation in a secured setting.

a reply to: MerkabaTribeEntity

We share similar thoughts so cheers for posting them
Recreational drug use always evolves and changes, 70's mainly speed/amphet, late 80's it was '___' then Ecstacy, now it's me me me Coke everyone is doing in clubland.
Heroin has always been the dark prince of problem drug addiction, followed now by synthetics. They are really the people tax money should assist in my opinion, chaotic lives, at the lowest ebb...not folk who blow a hundred quid on a gramme on the weekend.

EDIT, in the 80's it was a certain non alkaline begining with L, and ecstacy.

For starters this BS drug war needs to come to an end and get the financial gain out of the drug trade. Then walk right on by the addicts in the streets. They can't be helped if they are not willing to do it on their own. It sounds uncivilized but look away and let them kill themselves.

Neither,as long as there is a war there will be casualties.