Teacher behind anti-military classroom rant fired

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

www.foxnews.com...

The student who shot the video told local news outlets that he shot the video Jan. 19 during a government class at the Pico Rivera school. He told CBS2 Los Angeles that he took out his cellphone when Salcido started lecturing another student who was wearing a Marines sweatshirt. "I was very angry," the student said.

Yes he was.

Not according to the article above.

Notice you didn't answer if the teacher in question shaming the child for the clothes worn to class constitutes bullying?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: SlapMonkey


Just to be clear, there is a difference between complete freedom and chaos. Free speech and order can coexist.

Sure they can, amongst people of maturity and intellectual honesty.

In a classroom setting, though, full of immaturity and class clowns and defiant youths, "total freedom of speech in a classroom," which is the exact phrase to which I was responding, would become anarchy in many/most situations. I've seen it many times on the news and in videos where this happens even where unfettered free speech is NOT a thing.

My point being that a classroom setting is a classroom setting for a reason--it is designed where one person is in charge and the others listen and hopefully learn. That does not lend itself to "total freedom of speech" where all voices can be heard on any topic for any reason at any time--anything short of that is not "total freedom of speech."

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Shamrock6

I know you like to pretend you have some insight into the inner workings of people's minds but, as usual, you're a tiny bit off base.

No, not "only because he said something I do not like."

I wasn't speaking about you personally. Poor choice of words on my part. My mistake. But I do know enough to question your commitment to free expression given your penchant for make excuses for the school firing him.

Then clearly you have some sort of disconnect between reading something and comprehending it.

I have no problem with him expressing his opinions. I have a problem with the manner he chose to do so, and I don't believe an employer has a legal obligation to continue to employ somebody who's behavior they deem unprofessional.

You have the right to free speech. You have the right to be an asshole in the expression of that right. But that right doesn't confer an obligation on to your employer to allow you to be an asshole while they're paying you, nor does that right confer a responsibility on anybody else to not let you know you're an asshole. If that opinion somehow gets distorted enough to give you the impression that I don't support freedom of expression, then it's a failure to understand on your part rather than a failure to support on mine.

a reply to: Subaeruginosa

That would depend on how and why the person who has said "cushy job with no risk factor" with that salary arrived there--if it is the culmination of decades of hard work and climbing the proverbial ladder, good for them. If daddy handed it to them just because they are family, and they have no skills and produce no product, that's a less-than person, but not necessarily a less-than job position.

a reply to: shooterbrody

If the teacher was on a math class and railed against a student wearing a US flag shirt ( didn't this happen?) Then would that be grounds for firing?

It shouldn't matter the topic, and maybe we don't have enough bullying in our classrooms. Treating kids like China dolls has been detrimental so far.


Just my opinion.

a reply to: shooterbrody

In the five-minute diatribe recorded by student Victor Quinonez, Salcido is heard using expletives about those who serve in the military and their intelligence.

...Quinonez said he was berated by Salcido for wearing a Marine Corps sweatshirt in class.

abc7.com...

In the video you can clearly see the Marine Corp sweatshirt.

The video was shot by Victor Quiñonez, a 17-year-old senior.

Karen Rodriguez, Quiñonez's mother, told CNN that her son was wearing a Marine Corps sweatshirt that day. When he got up to turn in some work, Salcido asked him to explain why he was planning on joining the military after graduation.
Then he made the comments, and Victor started surreptitiously taping it when he got back to his desk, Rodriguez said.

www.cnn.com...



Sorry, but he wasn't shaming him.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
If free speech means anything to you guys, the teacher should not have been fired for his rant.

What utter nonsensical horsesh*t (which is disappointing, because you usually make so much sense).

Maybe we care about the principal's or superintendent's right to express their opinion that his behavior was unacceptable as a teacher and to terminate his employment. He was there to do a job, not spout off his personal opinions and "shame" his students.

If you care about free speech AND have an understanding of the concept of contractual employment, you would understand that (a) he did not have to accept a job at a school (since there are court rulings saying that schools can limit free speech), and (b) if he feels that expressing his opinions is more important than the job for which he was hired, he can go find employment elsewhere, voluntarily or through force.

He chose the latter of the two options in "b," and now he understands that a culmination of piss-poor decisions can have negative consequences. Life lessons can suck, but they need to be learned--too bad he waited until adulthood to be taught this lesson.

I applaud the school for firing him, as was their right to do. As others have noted, he was certainly free to do what he did, but he was not free from the consequences thereafter.

a reply to: Shamrock6

Then clearly you have some sort of disconnect between reading something and comprehending it.

I have no problem with him expressing his opinions. I have a problem with the manner he chose to do so, and I don't believe an employer has a legal obligation to continue to employ somebody who's behavior they deem unprofessional.

You have the right to free speech. You have the right to be an asshole in the expression of that right. But that right doesn't confer an obligation on to your employer to allow you to be an asshole while they're paying you, nor does that right confer a responsibility on anybody else to not let you know you're an asshole. If that opinion somehow gets distorted enough to give you the impression that I don't support freedom of expression, then it's a failure to understand on your part rather than a failure to support on mine.

You clearly do have a problem with him expressing his opinions, because that is exactly what he did. He wasn't "being an asshole" as you so claim.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: projectvxn

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Shamrock6

He wasn't.

He was fired for being an asshole.

But only because he said something you do not like.

School policy. He violated it and brought disrepute to the institution.

Out of curiosity, which policy?

Professional misconduct for bullying and browbeating his captive audience.

a reply to: DBCowboy

The teacher was/is an asshole and a bully.

Which is why he got fired.

This isn't a free speech issue. It's a professional standards issue.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

you don't seem to understand how subtle bullying usually is, it might seem all fun & games to others but that makes people on the opposing side feel like they are being mocked and are unable to respond because the social pressure the speaker creates with their words. this is exactly why school shootings happen, because people are careless with their words and actions. they forget how dangerous that kind of behavior truly is and treat serious things like childish games. laughter in such situations is called mockery.

all i saw with this teacher is a self-absorbed, self-righteous, judgmental ass face making an example out of one student to prove how right his opinions are and to dare any opposition to be spoken against his words so he can mock them too.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
If free speech means anything to you guys, the teacher should not have been fired for his rant.

What utter nonsensical horsesh*t (which is disappointing, because you usually make so much sense).

Maybe we care about the principal's or superintendent's right to express their opinion that his behavior was unacceptable as a teacher and to terminate his employment. He was there to do a job, not spout off his personal opinions and "shame" his students.

If you care about free speech AND have an understanding of the concept of contractual employment, you would understand that (a) he did not have to accept a job at a school (since there are court rulings saying that schools can limit free speech), and (b) if he feels that expressing his opinions is more important than the job for which he was hired, he can go find employment elsewhere, voluntarily or through force.

He chose the latter of the two options in "b," and now he understands that a culmination of piss-poor decisions can have negative consequences. Life lessons can suck, but they need to be learned--too bad he waited until adulthood to be taught this lesson.

I applaud the school for firing him, as was their right to do. As others have noted, he was certainly free to do what he did, but he was not free from the consequences thereafter.

Complete, authoritarian gobbledygook. Unless you can show me the contract and how he broke it, you don't know what the hell you're talking about, and are making excuses for censorship.

originally posted by: namehere
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

you don't seem to understand how subtle bullying usually is, it might seem all fun & games to others but that makes people on the opposing side feel like they are being mocked and are unable to respond because the social pressure the speaker creates with their words. this is exactly why school shootings happen, because people are careless with their words and actions. they forget how dangerous that kind of behavior truly is and treat serious things like childish games. laughter in such situations is called mockery.

all i saw with this teacher is a self-absorbed, self-righteous, judgmental ass face making an example out of one student to prove how right his opinions are and to dare any opposition to be spoken against his words so he can mock them too.

Yeah sure, tell me about your feelings.

a reply to: projectvxn

Professional misconduct for bullying and browbeating his captive audience.

If in your world the mere accusation of bullying and browbeating is enough for you to fire them, so be it.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: projectvxn

Professional misconduct for bullying and browbeating his captive audience.

If in your world the mere accusation of bullying and browbeating is enough for you to fire them, so be it.

There was a video, a review by the Board, and a decision made based on those standards as shown by the source article.

a reply to: projectvxn

There was a video, a review by the Board, and a decision made based on those standards as shown by the source article.

Have you seen it?

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: DBCowboy

The teacher was/is an asshole and a bully.

Which is why he got fired.

This isn't a free speech issue. It's a professional standards issue.

I think he was a dick.

But that is just my opinion.

Professional standards in schools are neither professional nor standard.

In my opinion.

a reply to: DBCowboy

I think what he said was stupid, and easily refuted. But if what he said constitutes "bullying" and "berating", all hope is lost for the future, whether left or right.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Agreed.


But it goes back to a premise you surmised, that words now equate to physical harm.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Shamrock6

Then clearly you have some sort of disconnect between reading something and comprehending it.

I have no problem with him expressing his opinions. I have a problem with the manner he chose to do so, and I don't believe an employer has a legal obligation to continue to employ somebody who's behavior they deem unprofessional.

You have the right to free speech. You have the right to be an asshole in the expression of that right. But that right doesn't confer an obligation on to your employer to allow you to be an asshole while they're paying you, nor does that right confer a responsibility on anybody else to not let you know you're an asshole. If that opinion somehow gets distorted enough to give you the impression that I don't support freedom of expression, then it's a failure to understand on your part rather than a failure to support on mine.

You clearly do have a problem with him expressing his opinions, because that is exactly what he did. He wasn't "being an asshole" as you so claim.

I clearly don't. Again, I know you like to think you know what people are thinking better than they do, but (again) as usual you're mistaken.

I have a problem with the manner he made his opinions known. That's not a problem with the opinions themselves. It's a pretty simple concept but in your effort to drag every thread you appear in somewhere deep in to the weeds you somehow seem to keep missing that point. As usual it's been fun, but if you're going to insist on arguing from a position of knowing what I think better than I do, I'm not really interested in it.

You think he wasn't being an asshole. Great, got it. Fortunately, that's nothing more than your opinion because you're not the arbiter of what is and isn't being an asshole. My opinion, which carries no more but no less weight than yours, is that he was being an asshole.

The folks who are the actual arbiters of whether he acted like an asshole or not seem to think he did, and that said behavior was enough to terminate him over.