US boy, 9, 'kills sister, 13, over controller'

originally posted by: fleabit
Some people act as if a gun being involved has nothing to do with the crime. That is preposterous. Why is road rage a thing? Because people when angered can be emotionally unstable and make stupid, quick decisions on an action. Gotta weapon-on-wheels.. they are going to make their point!

Same with guns. There are so many more gun deaths caused by irrational behavior, then premeditated intent. Whether caused by immaturity (in the case of children), drugs, alcohol, rage induced by an argument with their spouse, suicides because guns make it oh-so-easy, the fact a GUN is available, makes so much easier to act on an impulse.

Do you have any way you can back up this assertion? Most gun deaths are suicides, and any psychologist will tell you few suicides are an impulse action. Most suicides the person has been dwelling on it and thinking about it for a while before they commit to doing it. Further, only about half of US suicides involve a gun. Roughly just as many people manage to kill themselves using other means. Suicide rates in other countries show no correlation with gun availability.

Almost all the rest of gun deaths are murders, and I haven't seen any stats about how many are premeditated versus how many are crimes of passion. If you have something that breaks that down that I can read, I'm always open to new information.

I'm not saying take all guns away. I'm saying ignoring the problem won't fix the problem. You are absolutely crazy if you think ANY level of counseling, good parenting, etc. - will make it so people don't get irrationally angry or depressed for some reason. It's still going to happen.

Sort of like people can obtain guns far too easily. That's not a theory, that's a fact. If gun vetting was much better than it is, some people that might use guns when they get unstable.. won't be able to.

But hey.. so much easier for pro gun advocates and the government to say "Oh.. it's a people problem.. not a gun problem," and simply ignore it.. thinking somehow the problem will magically fix itself.

Nobody is saying ignore it and it will magically go away. Look at the posts from pro-gun people in this thread talking about studying the mental health aspect and cracking down on irresponsible owners and harsher penalties for criminals who use a gun. All of these things are supported by the NRA as well, by the way. The focus on the gun keeps us from getting anywhere on the real, underlying issues that I think we all agree need to be addressed. Spending so much energy on an area where there's little common ground to be found is less energy spent on the area where we do have common ground and can make a difference.

a reply to: fleabit

Same with guns. There are so many more gun deaths caused by irrational behavior, then premeditated intent. Whether caused by immaturity (in the case of children), drugs, alcohol, rage induced by an argument with their spouse, suicides because guns make it oh-so-easy, the fact a GUN is available, makes so much easier to act on an impulse.

As you posted, the events are caused by behaviors. Guns may have been a convenient tool when available but the problem is the behavior, not the tool. Remove one tool and it will just be substituted with another if the problem behavior is not fixed.

If you remove all the razor blades from the house, a cutter will still find or construct an instrument to cut themselves. Guns when available during a moment of rage may be the weapon of choice, but hammers, broken bottles, screwdrivers, bricks, kitchen knives, cars, fire, are just a few items that have been used as weapons during a passionate moment of rage. Fix the behavior, eliminate the assault. Eliminating the gun will not eliminate the assault because it is not the problem.

I am not pro guns nor am I anti guns. Guns are being targeted right now so I can see how people can be led to believe that getting rid of guns will fix the problem. It won't. I have seen the ugliness and the evil that man can do, with and without guns.

Fix the ugly and the gun problem will take care of itself.

originally posted by: puzzlesphere
a reply to: face23785

The gun is the cowards choice as it removes the need to get your hands dirty.

This is why nobody takes you guys seriously. If you really want progress, stop being a barrier to progress with childish nonsense like this. In the real world real people aren't superheros and they can't fight off any conceivable threat with their bare hands.

Hypothetically what do you all of you think would happen if we made guns, violent video games, and violent media illegal?

a reply to: face23785

Exactly... that's why it's possible for a 9 year old to kill a 13 year old, because he likely couldn't have done it with his bare hands... awesome!

More guns for everyone!

originally posted by: puzzlesphere
a reply to: face23785

Exactly... that's why it's possible for a 9 year old to kill a 13 year old, because he likely couldn't have done it with his bare hands... awesome!

More guns for everyone!

Bare hands and guns, apparently now the only two methods of killing someone available. I hope all the criminals got the memo.

Keep being a barrier to progress. It would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

a reply to: puzzlesphere

The gun is the cowards choice as it removes the need to get your hands dirty.

You don't have a clue how stupid that sounds, do you?

Ever been confronted by a pack of feral dogs? I have. ...fortunately for me, I had that cowards (your words) tool at at hand to dispose of them. Or the puma just a couple months back that a friend of mine had raid his chicken coop--he went out with the idea, wrong as it turns out, that what had got into them was a skunk, or perhaps a raccoon. Imagine his shock and dismay when the "raccoon" turned out to be a 150 pound cougar...he, too, carries a "cowards" tool.

Or, the 98 lb woman who has to use a "cowards" tool to defend herself against her 240 lb psycho ex who's about to break down her door.

Child, before you go casting aspersions towards people you don't know, you might consider, however briefly, the very real possibility that you don't know what you're talking about.

a reply to: face23785

Never said they were the only two methods of killing... not sure where you got that from. Though given the choice, I would rather face someone with any other weapon than a gun, since guns are literally the most efficient and easily obtainable killing objects we have in society.

How is pointing out stupid comments from gun nuts like "guns don't kill people", a barrier to progress?

Almost every other inanimate object that gun proponents like to say "... see that can kill too!", was designed for another purpose. Guns are an object designed purely to kill, no other use other than to kill.

Guess what?... guns kill people. Sorry to break it you.

Such a sad story. In one moment a little girl's life gone and the life of the 9 year old and his family permanently ruined.

I found these statistics in the accompanying WP article astonishing.

According to a 2017 report in the medical journal Pediatrics, firearms-related injuries are the third leading cause of death for children between the ages of 1 and 17 in the United States. From 2012 to 2014, an average of 1,297 children in the United States died each year from a firearm-related injury, the study showed.

Analyzing data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, The Post’s editorial board found that “on average, 23 children were shot each day in the United States in 2015. Of the approximately 8,400 shootings, 1,458 were fatal, a death toll that exceeds the entire number of U.S. military fatalities in Afghanistan this decade.”

There's a massive cultural divide in attitudes to gun law in the UK vs the USA, to the extent that it's virtually impossible to have rational discussion on the topic. Emotions take precedence and we cannot listen to each other.

Guns are an object designed purely to kill, no other use other than to kill.

Tranquilizer dart firing guns to subdue animals so they can be medically treated.

originally posted by: face23785

originally posted by: puzzlesphere
a reply to: face23785

The gun is the cowards choice as it removes the need to get your hands dirty.

This is why nobody takes you guys seriously. If you really want progress, stop being a barrier to progress with childish nonsense like this. In the real world real people aren't superheros and they can't fight off any conceivable threat with their bare hands.

That works both ways, it's hard to take you guys seriously when you need a gun to solve every issue you are confronted with.... See how that works?

a reply to: face23785

Yes, they should look at all avenues.

Administration studies need to look beyond media, look more into addiction despite what the media is. Studies have already shown that internet(social media, websites, etc) are addictive. Just as most anything can be addictive to the addictive personality.

That this is a very real thing despite it being ingrained into all lives, especially kids now days through school, toddlers being introduced to tablets for learning games, etc., using devices to access the internet. Before it was solely TV and then video games, now more mediums of it adding to the addiction.

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Where did someone say they needed a gun to solve every issue they are confronted with?
Even if one person said that it doesn't mean everyone needs a gun to solve issues?

a reply to: Deluxe

Exactly just like if one person says removing all guns is an option doesn't mean all people advocating gun control want all guns removed.

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

originally posted by: face23785

originally posted by: puzzlesphere
a reply to: face23785

The gun is the cowards choice as it removes the need to get your hands dirty.

This is why nobody takes you guys seriously. If you really want progress, stop being a barrier to progress with childish nonsense like this. In the real world real people aren't superheros and they can't fight off any conceivable threat with their bare hands.

That works both ways, it's hard to take you guys seriously when you need a gun to solve every issue you are confronted with.... See how that works?

But you're the one converting the statement into hyperbole or do you really think you can take on any threat you face with your bare hands?

I suppose that if I'm out in the country at my folks' place and confronted with a rabid animal, I could try to take it on with my bare hands, but if I don't have to, why would I? Oh, that's right ... only cowards do that.

One more time...kids in Afghanistan have machine guns, not just toy guns, but MACHINE GUNS.

They don't kill their siblings, brothers and sisters.

WHY?????

All of your "gun" arguments are hereby nullified!

Explain why the kids in Afghanistan don't kill their sisters for hoarding the remote control!!

Is it the guns???????? NO...it's the mentality.

Game...Set...Match!

a reply to: ketsuko

No, I was replying to face23785 and his hyperbolic comment, I simply turned it back around on him.

At no point did I say that any threat can be taken on with bare hands, obviously wild animals bears and stuff guns are really needed but that's not what is being discussed is it.

The conversation is impossible to have because of the extremities in the argument.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Explain why the kids in Afghanistan don't kill their sisters for hoarding the remote control!!

Because they don't have remote controls for game's, they are probably too busy/occupied with getting through the day, eating..etc

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

You said
"it's hard to take you guys seriously when you need a gun to solve every issue you are confronted with"
Back that up.
Don't spit it back at me as
"just like if one person says removing all guns is an option doesn't mean all people advocating gun control want all guns removed"
Back that up as well. Who said that?

originally posted by: puzzlesphere
a reply to: face23785

You know... guns, the great equalizer and all that.

The gun is the cowards choice as it removes the need to get your hands dirty.

You know what?

I am a 6'-5" 265 lb. COWARD. I will readily admit it!

I am a COWARD!

I wrestle with 2,300lb. bulls every day, but I am a COWARD. I'm a PUSSY!! I am the worst cowardly low life afraid piece of excrement on this earth. I am a COWARD.

I'm the guy who goes out in the middle of the night to assist cows giving birth (which they are doing right now), in the worst of weather, the guy who braves all weather, and then the coyotes come in...looking for a snack. BUT, I'm a COWARD! I'm a lowly COWARD, a terrible sniveling coward!

You have no idea what I do, not even for one moment, but you call me a "coward" because I own firearms. You have no idea about my life, the dangers I face (things which would scare you to DEATH)...and you call me...a COWARD. How DARE you???

I dare you to walk in my shoes for just ONE day, you (insert disparaging adjective) little rodent! Just one single day. My wife would even laugh at you...and she's a girl. You want to call someone a "Coward", well, you better know one hell of a lot more about them than just some words on some internet forum. I've walked 55 years in these shoes, and I've faced some pretty scary situations...and some of those situations required a firearm. What situations have YOU faced...you little pontificating rodent? What?

I think the "COWARD"...is YOU!! Why? Because you have an opinion which is founded on fables, fake news and hearsay. A "paper tiger" as some would call it, a true "Coward"...all talk and no walk.

Take care.

ETA...I don't like being identified as a "Coward"...in case that's not obvious!