Prison Industrial Complex and Us

a reply to: skunkape23

I'm sorry hear that buddy. I hope things are better now.

originally posted by: starwarsisreal
a reply to: skunkape23

I'm sorry hear that buddy. I hope things are better now.

That was nearly twenty years ago. Life is good.
The resentment towards the legal system still lingers.

originally posted by: putnam6

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: intrptr

Prisons are a private business now, prisoners are product. Profits are foremost, the more prisoners the more profit.

Ergo... the uS has the highest prison population on the planet. Many languish for menial crimes, some are incarcerated for lengthy periods without charge or set trial date, sometimes for years.

I would enthusiastically rebut that....of, course. We have had record prisoners for a long time. Long before privatized prisons.

Yes, they ARE products. Products of the public Union Sectors prison system that engenders rape murder and integration into ethnic groups for personal survival. That has been our lot for generations. Privatized prisons at least allows for safer facilities for prisoners and I have seen zero examples of prisoner abuse in the private system.

Sans the Public Sector Union agreements, wages, pensions and the like, the private system saves money.

It's not the private system that is incarcerating these people either. It's the legal system. I would say that the private system is an improvement, not that it's hard to improve what we've laughingly called our 'rehabilitation system'....

All fine points and would agree thats great,but the private prison systems also has lobbyists and funds the continued criminalization for the use of marijuana. SURELY YOU CAN SEE WHERE THAT KIND OF INFLUENCE needs to be curtailed or eliminated all together.

I'm not a fan of legalized pot use beyond medicinal. I do agree that imprisonment for pot use takes it too far. My understanding is it's more trafficking and criminal acts likes theft and robbery result in prison sentences. Could be wrong, though, depending on what state is involved.

As far as lobbyists go, good point, yet the Public Sector Unions make full use of the same mechanism, one would think.

a reply to: zosimov


I read The Lucifer Effect about 10 years ago, a fascinating story if ever there was.

We greatly misuse prison in my opinion. Keeping dogs and people in cages will generate hostile personalities. Those to whom evil is done do evil in return said W.H. Auden.

originally posted by: Salander
a reply to: zosimov


I read The Lucifer Effect about 10 years ago, a fascinating story if ever there was.

We greatly misuse prison in my opinion. Keeping dogs and people in cages will generate hostile personalities. Those to whom evil is done do evil in return said W.H. Auden.

What would you suggest? Lazi-boys and beach front property?

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: Salander
a reply to: zosimov


I read The Lucifer Effect about 10 years ago, a fascinating story if ever there was.

We greatly misuse prison in my opinion. Keeping dogs and people in cages will generate hostile personalities. Those to whom evil is done do evil in return said W.H. Auden.

What would you suggest? Lazi-boys and beach front property?

What would you suggest?
Throwing 20 men in a concrete cubicle and let them fight for food?
Then release them to the street?
Get your self righteous head out of your ass.
The system does more harm than good.

a reply to: zosimov

2.3 million incarcerated.... That's an army, imagine they got set loose on society...

originally posted by: skunkape23
Prison only breeds better criminals.
Rehabilitation my ass.
I've done three months in county for a charge that was dismissed.
ALL CAPS. F-YOU-C-K THE PRISON SYSTEM.
It took some time to reintegrate in society.
I was turned loose with no job, no home...no pot to piss in.
Not even a simple apology for their screw up.

I was in the county lockup for a DUI for 6 months. There was a guy in there for 18 months waiting for trial. The day he went to court the DA said they did not have the evidence to bring it to trial and he was freed. I would have been pissed off big time. I would have sued them if I could. That is ridiculous.

If you don't have an attorney and bail money they keep you as long as they can. One of my best friends was a C.O. there. He told me they get like $150 a day from the state to hold people in the local jail. So, they are making money off the poor that can't do anything about it.

And the 'war on drugs' has done nothing but increase the quantity and quality of drugs on the street and bring the cost down. However, they make money off the people incarcerated. If the war on drugs was ended it would cause the closure of many facilities. There are lots of people employed because of the war on drugs. The police, judges, attorneys, and all their lackeys. Not to mention the equipment used by law enforcement. It is all a money making scheme. If they were so concerned about crime they wouldn't be handing down sentences for murder of 3 years or 5 years. But have any quanity of street drugs and you might be looking at anywhere from 20 to life!

Solution?

"Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."

And you thought it was just a catchy phrase.

Silly you.

originally posted by: skunkape23

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: Salander
a reply to: zosimov


I read The Lucifer Effect about 10 years ago, a fascinating story if ever there was.

We greatly misuse prison in my opinion. Keeping dogs and people in cages will generate hostile personalities. Those to whom evil is done do evil in return said W.H. Auden.

What would you suggest? Lazi-boys and beach front property?

What would you suggest?
Throwing 20 men in a concrete cubicle and let them fight for food?
Then release them to the street?
Get your self righteous head out of your ass.
The system does more harm than good.

Talk about self righteous. Fascinating how fast the 'compassionate' go to antagonism. I have zero use for the current system as it 'rehabilitates' no one. That doesn't mean jails are 'evil', however. There is a middle ground here. Punishment for crimes and fear of consequence of criminal acts is a deterrent. One only has to look at what happens when there's a police strike or a power outage or riots with no effective response by police.

Don't like it? Try prison and see what gets shoved up your ass.

This is clearly a highly charged issue, which many of us have been affected by in some way. I grieve for all of the innocent people affected- whether as a victim to crime or as a victim to injustice done in the name of the law.

This is a multi-faceted issue, and so far I've heard interesting ideas about what we can do to reduce crime (revival of the family unit, decriminalization of non-violent drug possession), but am very curious as to what the more "hard line" members think about the topic in the OP-- if we should treat all crime with strong punitive measures, how should we handle the cases of abuses of power or straight up illegal activity which is too often unpunished when perpetrated by the system, and does anyone care to take it to an even more personal level and wonder what it is in our psychology that leads people to abuse power or degrade and humiliate fellow man?

The prison experiment has less to do with prison and more to do with human nature- when given the opportunity to degrade another person, a surprising number of people will do it.

originally posted by: zosimov
This is clearly a highly charged issue, which many of us have been affected by in some way. I grieve for all of the innocent people affected- whether as a victim to crime or as a victim to injustice done in the name of the law.

This is a multi-faceted issue, and so far I've heard interesting ideas about what we can do to reduce crime (revival of the family unit, decriminalization of non-violent drug possession), but am very curious as to what the more "hard line" members think about the topic in the OP-- if we should treat all crime with strong punitive measures, how should we handle the cases of abuses of power or straight up illegal activity which is too often unpunished when perpetrated by the system, and does anyone care to take it to an even more personal level and wonder what it is in our psychology that leads people to abuse power or degrade and humiliate fellow man?

The prison experiment has less to do with prison and more to do with human nature- when given the opportunity to degrade another person, a surprising number of people will do it.

The one reform I think that needs to be made is with prosecutors whose only goal is to win a case, not necessarily prove guilt. There have been way too many cases of prosecutor misconduct and I think prosecutors should be facing jail time for such behavior.

There are a lot of issues with the legal system in general. I think overall the system is fair, but it's wheels move too slow and is mired in bureaucracy and politics. Also, the law is so focused on purity of law instead of common sense. I understand why, but it is frustrating to say the least.

The bottom line for me though is the best way to fix the prison system or the legal system is to avoid it.

a reply to: zosimov


This is invariably the state of affairs when a society is forced to cannibalize itself, economically speaking. If your personal financial survival was dependent on keeping a person no worse or better than you incarcerated. Most would do it willingly, or end up in their position.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
It's not the private system that is incarcerating these people either. It's the legal system. I would say that the private system is an improvement, not that it's hard to improve what we've laughingly called our 'rehabilitation system'....

The problem is much bigger than just the prisons. The entire justice system is on the brink of failure. It suffers from systemic racism (by which I mean many policies are racist, not the people enforcing them), a massive disparity in results based on socioeconomic status, is inaccessible to the common person without a lawyer, has a non functional public defender system, has a prison system based on generating revenue when it should simply be a cost center, uses slave labor to generate revenue, and there's most I'm not thinking of.

The criminal justice system needs massive reform from the ground up.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
It's not the private system that is incarcerating these people either. It's the legal system. I would say that the private system is an improvement, not that it's hard to improve what we've laughingly called our 'rehabilitation system'....

The problem is much bigger than just the prisons. The entire justice system is on the brink of failure. It suffers from systemic racism (by which I mean many policies are racist, not the people enforcing them), a massive disparity in results based on socioeconomic status, is inaccessible to the common person without a lawyer, has a non functional public defender system, has a prison system based on generating revenue when it should simply be a cost center, uses slave labor to generate revenue, and there's most I'm not thinking of.

The criminal justice system needs massive reform from the ground up.

originally posted by: Edumakated
I do agree that we are too quick to jail some people, but I also think we have a lot people in prison simply because we have a lot of criminals. I think in order to explore this topic fairly, you have to look at it from all angles.

I think we have a lot of criminals because we have a severe breakdown of the family over the past 40 years, namely the social acceptance of single mothers a la baby mamas. We've literally mainstreamed a ghetto / redneck sub culture that breeds criminality and social dysfunction. The prison system is a symptom, not the actual problem imho.

In order to fix the prison system, you have to get to the root causes. Very few people are thrown in jail "just because". I'm a mid 40s black male. I've never been arrested and never jailed. My only interaction with the criminal justice system is arguing a traffic violation in court. If you don't do street sh*t, you don't go to jail. It really is that simple.

I grew up with a lot of people who are in prison now. Every single one of them did something that deserves jail time.

Some should be in jail, but I think that's the minority. With most stuff, I don't see why we use prison. If someone steals something force them to return it and pay a fine (or keep and return a bigger fine). Petty thiefs don't need to be in jail.

Jail is a place that only those who can't function in society should be. If a person is still 90% functional despite their crime, then let them continue their career and make it up with fines and community service. This way they don't lose their jobs, income, belongings, and homes. And it keeps the court cases short. The system runs much more efficiently this way.

The best advice is clean living and you won't find yourself doing something illegal, but we all know that not everyone will do that.

a reply to: Aazadan

Agreed

a reply to: zosimov

There are darker sides then the ones you listed.

In Alabama the prison system allots a pre-determined amount for food and necessities. If the warden is able to provide for the needs of the prison and spend less than his allotment - he gets to keep the difference. One warden just bought himself a $740k beach house. That wouldn't be all that bad except that his prisoners are eating food clearly labeled 'not for human consumption".

US prisons are a failure in terms of their supposed purpose. Their real purpose, to make money, they are doing fine - at the expense of human decency and fair reasonable punishment.

I'd just like to thank everyone for the thought-provoking discussion. There are some really great ideas in here and I am cheered to read how many of us agree that there are some glaring flaws at the heart of the system.

This has really made me put some thought into what, if anything, I or the average citizen can do to address the problem.

Thanks again to everyone for taking the time to share your ideas!

Hope you are enjoying your weekend!

There are some "treatment facilities" where people with psychological problems as minimal as anxiety and depression and then also drug use/abuse are sent to. Maybe they go to the hospital for an extreme case/bout of the condition and they are transferred to a "special treatment" facility that could very well be mistaken for a prison, a minimum security prison, but still a prison with guards, heavy locking doors everywhere, contained "patients", and instead of a prison guard uniform, they wear nurses scrubs, but they often act the same. These facilities are cash cows and the "patients" are at the mercy of the administration even if there "voluntarily" as the doctor can over-ride that saying they think you are a harm to yourself or others... If the person has good insurance, their stay may tend to be longer and the treatment may be a little better to make them less anxious to GTF out of there. I'd guess that there are maybe 250,000 to 1,000,000 people in this situation at any one time.