Nerve Agent May Not Have Been Manufactured In Russia.

a reply to: bjarneorn

russians, when the people demonstrate ... the soldiers stand down. In the US, or UK ... the soldiers shoot to kill.

Sorry but what kind of special brand of bollocks is this any proof of this??

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: bjarneorn

The problem with your argument is the attempted assassination was done in public and the guy was known to be a Russian ex-spy. He didn't hide behind secret identities.

No, Id say it hammers the nail in the coffin ... Russians, botching the job ... seriously?

Not a chance ...

This is all way too convenient ... all around. Sure, maybe the Russians did it as a publicity stunt, to rally up hatred against Russia, so Putin can win the election ...

No can do, dude ...

Putin, just came on TV and told the world of his new toys. Toys that will make Russia, stronger than the west. The west, sees Russia as weak now, but fear it may become stronger in a couple of years.

This intimidation, is meant against Russia ...

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: bjarneorn

russians, when the people demonstrate ... the soldiers stand down. In the US, or UK ... the soldiers shoot to kill.

Sorry but what kind of special brand of bollocks is this any proof of this??

History lesson ... history is all bollocks, as limeys call it. After all, they wrote it ... in sino war letters, written with opium pens. Ask the chinese.

originally posted by: bjarneorn

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: bjarneorn

russians, when the people demonstrate ... the soldiers stand down. In the US, or UK ... the soldiers shoot to kill.

Sorry but what kind of special brand of bollocks is this any proof of this??

History lesson ... history is all bollocks, as you limeys call it. After all, you wrote it ... in sino war letters, written with opium pens.

Again.... eh???

Might just be the fumes from my “opium pen” but none of what you’re saying is making much sense.

Could just be a poor Russian to English translation though

a reply to: alldaylong

shocker!

most of the new generation nerve agents work by blocking a very specific transmitter found in mussels(lungs and heart) called acetylcholine.

by default there are only so many variations of these types of nerve agents. anyone with the equipment to safely make and store these agents would by default have to be pretty sophisticated, but not government run.

its more the application and use of them where the tough part comes in. who ever used this chemical had some form of protection or an elaborate dispeal method as to not kill way more people and themselves. the many many people that were affected by this compound should count themselves lucky.

the more severe cases of exposure will probably have lifelong effects from this.

originally posted by: bjarneorn
This is all way too convenient ... all around.

Just at the same time Putin is looking to maximise the turnout at his election, where he will be elected for yet another term. Nothing jingles the Russian than a narrative that they are the victim of false accusations, and with the Russian media controlled by Putin the message is clear. "Vote for me, as I am the only one who is tough, and the only person on the ballot paper who will get in having barred any realistic opposition (smiley face)".

Anyway. The Russian media and politicians are cycling through the same old obfuscation and distraction that they have done many times when they have been caught out. MH17, Crimea, cyber crime, election-meddling, Syria civilian bombing (etc) to name but a few recent examples. Putin has even started blaming the Jews.

a reply to: penroc3

Something is ringing alarm bells.

The Nerve Agent used was sent to Porton Down for analysis. Results came back within a few days, stating in was a Novichock developed by Soviet Union.

UK Prime Minister Theresa May has told MPs that Porton Down - Britain's military research base - identified the substance used as being part of a group of military-grade nerve agents known as Novichok developed by the Soviet Union.

Experts from the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) will arrive in the U.K. in the next few days to also analyse The Nerve Agent. However it's going to take a minimum of 2 weeks for them to identify.

He also said experts from the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) would arrive in the UK on Monday to test samples of the nerve agent. The results are expected to take a "minimum of two weeks", the Foreign Office added

www.bbc.co.uk...

How can The U.K. have come to a conclusion in a couple of days ?

originally posted by: alldaylong
How can The U.K. have come to a conclusion in a couple of days ?

There was a discussion on the radio the other day. These chemical mixtures have certain unique properties and these can be matched to libraries. The libraries provide the proverbial "smoking gun". As the UK will have developed extensive chemical libraries, because that's what they do, making a match should be relatively straightforward. This could also be a reason why the UK's allies have been so quick to agree.

a reply to: alldaylong

im not sure how they can pin this to anyone.

a chemical is a chemical no matter where it is made.

the only way i could see them being able to place blame is if one of the sick people is an agent of Russia and had the dispersal device on him. and even then it would have to be a known russian dispersal technique and a confession.

otherwise this is all a show, the chemical in question is not an amazing feat of chemical engineering.

a reply to: paraphi

Radio 4? I heard it too. The guy was quite informative.

a reply to: Kandinsky

the russians in the 90's were going to use a binary system that would mix on launch of the weapon and form a aerosolized powder, it is a very sophisticated system.


the chemical formulas are well known, obviously if they are putting it across BBC radio. The chemical is not that difficult to make compared to some other things. and like most things there are only a number of ways to make something that is realistic.

the fact that a relatively small area and number of people were affected means that it was not an aerosolized micro powder.

they may have put it in DMSO so that way it could be transmitted by touch, and these other people just happened to be around and touching the same stuff as the targets.

the fact that none of the people are dead means it was not a full on exposure. taking VX as an example, you need to administer medications almost as soon as the exposure takes place to not suffocate.

the japan sarin attack killed a lot of people and sarin in usually aerosolized, but they just popped bags of it and it still killed people


the agent in this attack is 5-10 times more powerful than VX and many many times more powerful than sarin.


who ever did this was not using militarized weapons, if they were there would be alot of dead or at the very least many more people in critical care.

On the Andrew Marr show this morning Boris Johnson said "We actually have evidence within the last 10 years that Russia has not only been investigating the delivery of nerve agents for the purposes of assassination, but has also been creating and stockpiling Novichok"

If this is true, why has it taken so long for this information to come out? This would have been one of the first things I would have said as part of the evidence against Russia.

Yet we only know about this new evidence now after Boris Johnson had to respond to Vladimir Chizhov's earlier claim that Russia did not stockpile the nerve agent and that the Porton Down lab was only eight miles from the city.

www.bbc.co.uk...

a reply to: penroc3

It's a heck of a case, isn't it? It's a timely reminder that some people play for very high stakes. It's all cool when people are recreationally attacking the NSA, CIA, FRB and other leading Intel agencies. It's easy to forget that we're criticising people who train killers and aren't afraid to create 'accidental deaths,' 'suicides' or other less pleasant endings.

who ever did this was not using militarized weapons, if they were there would be alot of dead or at the very least many more people in critical care.

I don't know. I'm sort of stuck on the 'militarized' term. They and we manufacture this stuff in locations attached to the militaries. In that sense, it's 'militarized,' but I think you mean it's not being delivered in huge amounts like gassing a building or street. It appears to be deliverable in concentrated amounts and in tightly defined areas.

Of course, it looks to have gone awry this time. We won't know if there have been many other occasions when they were so successful they came close to being perfect murders. The UK and other nations have long suspected that foreign nationals have been meeting unexpected deaths and have had to wait for one that offered a little more tangibility.

a reply to: Kandinsky

it sure is an interesting case.

who ever made the chemical is a master chemist, seeing as they were able to make and more importantly contain it and that is the hard part.

it just seems to easy to place the blame on russia, they are usually pretty good at killing people. even in the polonium killing it ended in the target dying and no collateral damage. this seems sloppy.

CIA,FSB MI6 etc have tried and true methods of killing and not leaving a traceable fingerprint.

why would russia use something that most of the world would be quick to pin to russia? these agents have been known about outside russia for almost 20 years along with the synthesis pathways. so if you had a lab or a chemist with access to a good lab and money it wouldn't be a stretch of the imagination to say it was a 'home brewed' batch.

like i said above it isnt making it thats super hard, its keeping it in it's bottle and then using it without mass death.

if this event had killed innocent civilians and it was traced back to russia, i imagine it might stoke the flames of war.


sloppy who ever did it


ETA:

i wonder how the hospital was able to diagnose organophosphate poisoning so quickly. they came to the hospital in critical condition and i assume they could not speak. and with compounds of this strength you have minutes to act to avoid permanent damage or death. my hats off to the DR who was able to quickly diagnose and treat it, definitely wouldn't be the first thing they would be looking for.

there are signs like flushed skin and pinpoint pupils but it might be overlooked for more plausible causes, almost makes me wonder if he had a agent watching him and gave the heads up to the hospital.

a reply to: penroc3

We don't really know enough to say. Misfortune happens to the best assassins and old Rabbie Burns said, 'The best laid plans of mice and men always go to #.'

If we have all these Intel assassins killing people across the world, it stands to reason some will be FUBARs. It's funny how we all share one planet and live in totally different worlds.

originally posted by: loam
This is a very serious development, imo.

Let's assume for a moment the Russians are not responsible. What explains the sudden desire of everyone to blame the Russians for this?

Confused.

West wants to plunder Syria. Russia (and China) has said no. So west will continue introducing sanctions against Russia to try kill their economy. Russia's recent announcment of their hypersonic nucluer capabilities might be message that Russia are taking their gloves off. Pissing on a country with 4,300 nuclear warheads is not be the smartest of idea's. All for what?

Russia Claims US Deploys Warships For Imminent Attack On Syria, Trains Militants For False Flag Attack

a reply to: glend

It isn't all one-sided. There's an obvious and multi-level failure of diplomacy at work too.

I wrote about this escalation in a thread three years ago - Doomsday Clock Moves Closer to Midnight! If you skim it, you'll notice it was a very balanced OP with no finger pointing or jingoism.

As I look to the next couple of years, I can honestly say that I feel anxious. The world constantly falls back from the precipice and I get that. There’s no point in worrying too much and I get that too. However, when I peer dimly into the future, I can’t help feeling we (humanity in general) are going into a time of darkness. On several levels the symbolic clock resonates with my own sense that humanity has, once more, lost its direction.

This quote isn't to puff up my ego or pretend to be portentous. I'm as in the dark as anyone else and looking for the sunshine. It's only there to show that people were concerned about a new Cold War years ago and some of those anxieties are coming to pass.

originally posted by: 83Liberty
On the Andrew Marr show this morning Boris Johnson said "We actually have evidence within the last 10 years that Russia has not only been investigating the delivery of nerve agents for the purposes of assassination, but has also been creating and stockpiling Novichok"

If this is true, why has it taken so long for this information to come out? This would have been one of the first things I would have said as part of the evidence against Russia.

Yet we only know about this new evidence now after Boris Johnson had to respond to Vladimir Chizhov's earlier claim that Russia did not stockpile the nerve agent and that the Porton Down lab was only eight miles from the city.

www.bbc.co.uk...

This is very telling.

In short, we should be extremely sceptical of this sudden new information that Boris Johnson has produced out of a hat. If the UK was in possession of intelligence about a secret Russian chemical weapons programme, it was not under a legal obligation to tell Andrew Marr, but it was under a legal obligation to tell the OPCW. Not only did the UK fail to do that, the UK Ambassador Sir Geoffrey Adams was last year fulsomely congratulating the OPCW on the completion of the destruction of Russia’s chemical weapons stocks, without a single hint or reservation entered that Russia may have undeclared or secret stocks.

www.craigmurray.org.uk...

Anyone smell a rat ?

Craig Murray interview on Radio 5.

a reply to: Kandinsky

The west is not interested in diplomacy. Old world rule is under threat by the emergence of China's industrial strength so the fight is for world supremacy. US is trying to control China's lifeblood (oil) by plundering oil rich nations. As stated in Zbigniew Brzezinski book, The Grand Chessboard. Who ever controls Eurasia controls the world.

The war began in Afghanistan. US spent 630 million in 1987 against Russia in Afghanistan (Operation Cyclone) without public awareness. Continued to Iraq, Libya, and now Syria. Just how much is being being spent on the war today is anyones guess. But it wont be over until West suceeds. Else China will reign supreme.

Nice thread btw.

originally posted by: alldaylong
Anyone smell a rat ?

Yes. Craig Murray. He's a self-publicist, a sacked civil servant, and his article is factually incorrect. He has no clue as to the evidence the UK has compiled.

For example, in his article you quote from, he says the Soviet chemical weapons programme was based in Nukus, Uzbekistan. when in fact it was devolved. He suggests that the Americans took chemicals from the derelict plant without recognising that material could have been repatriated to Russia before the place fell into total disrepair.

Anyway, Russia's facility at Shikhany continues to produce novichok.