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Nerve Agent May Not Have Been Manufactured In Russia.

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posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 04:28 AM
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Perfect, end of discussion. lol Finding the ID was a stroke of luck.
edit on 17-3-2018 by rken2 because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 06:16 AM
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originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: MostlyReading

'Solid proof' isn't realistic at this time. Probabilities are all we have.


"Probably" is not enough to convict someone of a murder in a court of law. It shouldn't be enough to escalate the current cold war into a real and maybe world wide one either.



posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 08:59 AM
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originally posted by: MostlyReading

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: MostlyReading

'Solid proof' isn't realistic at this time. Probabilities are all we have.


"Probably" is not enough to convict someone of a murder in a court of law. It shouldn't be enough to escalate the current cold war into a real and maybe world wide one either.


You believe the UK should just STFU when people get assassinated on UK soil. In reality, the 'probably' was clearly an informed one and strong enough to make an unprecedented complaint to the Russians.

I'm chuckling at your implication that Britain will be responsible if war breaks out. You really do believe the UK should close its eyes when foreign nationals get killed on UK soil. Do you also believe Russia is innocent or just that they should never be challenged?



posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 09:12 AM
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originally posted by: Kandinsky

originally posted by: MostlyReading

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: MostlyReading

'Solid proof' isn't realistic at this time. Probabilities are all we have.


"Probably" is not enough to convict someone of a murder in a court of law. It shouldn't be enough to escalate the current cold war into a real and maybe world wide one either.


You believe the UK should just STFU when people get assassinated on UK soil. In reality, the 'probably' was clearly an informed one and strong enough to make an unprecedented complaint to the Russians.

I'm chuckling at your implication that Britain will be responsible if war breaks out. You really do believe the UK should close its eyes when foreign nationals get killed on UK soil. Do you also believe Russia is innocent or just that they should never be challenged?


How many times has this been done before and at what point do you say enough is enough?

Any rational nation could at least wait until the facts are in before accusing other countries. What they shouldn't do is immediately run crying to the world with hollow accusations, which is what the UK have done.

And as I said at the start, why is it every time an international crime happens, Russia always gets the blame and the evidence never seems to appear, yet the sanctions or whatever do?

Naivety, and it is just so easy to cast blame without proof these days



posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 09:22 AM
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a reply to: Zcustosmorum

According to the people who matter, the 'facts are in' and they're pointing to Russia.

The first move by the UK was to ask Russia if they could explain it? You know ? "Hey fellas, there's this Russian traitor who's almost been murdered by a Russian nerve agent. Can you help us with a lead? Do you know how your best known Russian nerve agent got over here?" You saw the response.

At this point, the UK is confident enough to publicly charge the Russians. I realise you don't believe the UK and favour the Russian denials. That's cool enough and each to their own.

I think it's far more straightforward to point at Russia.



posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 09:39 AM
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originally posted by: Kandinsky

originally posted by: MostlyReading

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: MostlyReading

'Solid proof' isn't realistic at this time. Probabilities are all we have.


"Probably" is not enough to convict someone of a murder in a court of law. It shouldn't be enough to escalate the current cold war into a real and maybe world wide one either.


I'm chuckling at your implication that Britain will be responsible if war breaks out. You really do believe the UK should close its eyes when foreign nationals get killed on UK soil. Do you also believe Russia is innocent or just that they should never be challenged?


Then you are chuckling about things I have never said. First of all, UK is far from the only nation accusing Russia, in case you haven't noticed. There are plenty of very loud voices in the US accusing Russia too, for instance. I have also never said that UK should "close its eyes". I have never "implied" that and have no idea where you got that idea from.

What I have said is that proof is needed before things escalate further in an already dangerous and volatile situation. I have not forgotten the lies about WMDs in Iraq and the horrible things those lies led to because the official narrative was accepted at face value. As I said, there are ruthless people on all sides in world politics. This should not come as a surprise to anyone who has paid attention.

So I would appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. If you disagree with me, that's fine, but at least adress and disagree with things I have actually said instead of "chuckling" over assumptions and your own fabrications.



posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 09:58 AM
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a reply to: MostlyReading

Back-pedal all you like; it's Internet 101 and you're great at it.




What I have said is that proof is needed before things escalate further in an already dangerous and volatile situation.


The Russians don't send their recipes and secrets to their enemies and we don't send ours to anyone either. The way it works is via espionage and treachery. This means there is no rational way for MI6 or GCHQ to prove their case to you, or anyone else, without potentially losing an advantage or assets. The UK could have a 100% certainty and not be able to use that certainty in the public arena. Not to mention it'll be highly unlikely that the UK alone has the fingerprints of this nerve agent. The US will have them too and I'd guess Germany also because they came out so strongly to support the Brits.

Don't get me wrong, it'd be fantastic to know how confident the UK is and what information took them to that point. It's just that I'm not sure you fully understand that 'proof' in this case will more than likely be beyond our need to know. I appreciate your doubts and why you have them.



posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 10:30 AM
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a reply to: Kandinsky



I think it's far more straightforward to point at Russia.


It's a false narrative without facts, and not for the first time either



posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 10:38 AM
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a reply to: Kandinsky

Do you not realize how stupid that request even is?

Hey, I know you did something bad with this 40 years ago. Then you stopped doing that, per UN inspector reports, but I need you to find out how that bad thing appeared today.

Oh, and if your answer does not satisfy all of my personal demands, which I will not even tell you or give you the evidence to analyze, there will be big trouble.

In no UK court would that be acceptable. In no US court would that be acceptable. In no international court would that be acceptable.

When it pertains to forming political, and societal opinions, not only is it acceptable, it is currently being openly endorsed by people that would be crying bloody murder if that sort of BS was applied to themselves or their country.

The only thing this has done is shown the world how little Western Values actually mean...even to Westerners.



posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 10:38 AM
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originally posted by: MostlyReading

originally posted by: Kandinsky

originally posted by: MostlyReading

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: MostlyReading

'Solid proof' isn't realistic at this time. Probabilities are all we have.


"Probably" is not enough to convict someone of a murder in a court of law. It shouldn't be enough to escalate the current cold war into a real and maybe world wide one either.


I'm chuckling at your implication that Britain will be responsible if war breaks out. You really do believe the UK should close its eyes when foreign nationals get killed on UK soil. Do you also believe Russia is innocent or just that they should never be challenged?


Then you are chuckling about things I have never said. First of all, UK is far from the only nation accusing Russia, in case you haven't noticed. There are plenty of very loud voices in the US accusing Russia too, for instance. I have also never said that UK should "close its eyes". I have never "implied" that and have no idea where you got that idea from.

What I have said is that proof is needed before things escalate further in an already dangerous and volatile situation. I have not forgotten the lies about WMDs in Iraq and the horrible things those lies led to because the official narrative was accepted at face value. As I said, there are ruthless people on all sides in world politics. This should not come as a surprise to anyone who has paid attention.

So I would appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. If you disagree with me, that's fine, but at least adress and disagree with things I have actually said instead of "chuckling" over assumptions and your own fabrications.


Well said!
Rainbows
Jane



posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 12:46 PM
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originally posted by: loam
This is a very serious development, imo.

Let's assume for a moment the Russians are not responsible. What explains the sudden desire of everyone to blame the Russians for this?

Confused.


The Russians are digging up a lot of "chemical factories" in Eastern Ghouda ... there were most likely a lot of western contractors there, probably british ... by the sound of everything.

The news story and killing of that krippling guy, is to silence western media of anything "pro" Russian on this issue.



posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 12:53 PM
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originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: MostlyReading
Don't get me wrong, it'd be fantastic to know how confident the UK is and what information took them to that point. It's just that I'm not sure you fully understand that 'proof' in this case will more than likely be beyond our need to know. I appreciate your doubts and why you have them.


This is all wrong, and you know it ... when such "fingerprints" exist, it is done behind the curtain ... the ball play, is between leaders of the countries in question. It's not done in public ...

It's done in public, because there are no fingerprints ... and the publicity of the event, is meant as "terrorism" and to "intimade". The west is trying to "intimidate" Russia, with the fear of war ... knowing, historically, that Russia has always flinched from the west playing their "chicken" game, it's expected to have the same outcome now as well.

Probably will too ... Russians aren't ready for war.

Which of course, is the dumb play by the Russians ... this last event, is a declaration of war ... what it means, is that the west intends to destroy Russia and take it's assets.

If Russia was smart, it would start the war on it's own terms ... not play the "Saddam Hussein" card, of flinching and evading the issue ... knowing very well, that it's all a lie ... done for the purpose of utter destruction.



posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 02:55 PM
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a reply to: bjarneorn



This is all wrong, and you know it ... when such "fingerprints" exist, it is done behind the curtain ... the ball play, is between leaders of the countries in question. It's not done in public ...


The problem with your argument is the attempted assassination was done in public and the guy was known to be a Russian ex-spy. He didn't hide behind secret identities.

People are asking for proof and it can't happen. Maybe there'll be an enquiry where the details can be disclosed. Problem is enquiries are back-room affairs so you'd still have to trust the findings or recommendations. Let's be honest here too, a few members won't believe anything that conflicts with the view that Russia are innocent.

In the spirit of honesty, you aren't the only person to have doubts about what happened. I don't trust the Ministers or the govt either. For me, Russia is still the most logical and probable cause for the incident. I still remember Litvenenko and I know why the Magnitsky Act exists.



posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 03:20 PM
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originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: MostlyReading

Back-pedal all you like; it's Internet 101 and you're great at it.




What exactly am I "back-pedaling" about?

Please post direct quotes to back up your claim. Thanks.



posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 03:43 PM
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a reply to: Kandinsky


The least the UK could do would be to offer a convincing case with evidence. So far there is none of that, just propaganda.



posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 03:46 PM
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a reply to: Salander

I don't buy much my govt is selling (if anything), but this one looks to be real.



posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 04:03 PM
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originally posted by: Salander
a reply to: Kandinsky


The least the UK could do would be to offer a convincing case with evidence. So far there is none of that, just propaganda.


Uk law evidence is presented in a court of law. Few details are released during a ongoing investigation and they might not be able to give full details without compromising intelligence sources.

This fundamentally comes down to who do you believe Russia or the uk



posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 04:45 PM
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a reply to: YouSir

About the only lab usages for these stray Organo Phosphides are in an Atomic Energy Lab., separating the Transuranic elements. It's a nice business, if you can do it safely. The shelf full of these different reagents, aren't all equally weaponizable, but they all are extremely poisonous. Since there are no other reagents which will do these separations, if you have a Nuclear "Research Reactor", you also have to have a nerve gas factory, with all of it's safety protocols.

Parathion liquids, and micro-encapsulated Parathion, are the Agricultural kissing cousins of Tabun, and Sarin, nerve gases. but the rest of these hideous brews, are shelf mates, relegated to doing the above mentioned Transuranic chemical separations. If someone has come up with a binary reagent, then their two or more components, would store in a lab, a lot safer. Of course this posits that these two halves of the binary gas or powder, would be stable.

Real WWII German Tabun was exceptionally stable, so when the Brits dumped many tons of artillery shells loaded with it, into the shallow North Sea, they had to come back later, dredge it back up, seal the shells in steel drums, and then dump it once more, but now into the deepest depths of the North Atlantic. That stuff was more like a volatile oil, in long term storage. The Germans' aluminized powder fuses didn't go inert, but rather became super sensitive, even under salt water.

The Germans had between 150K and 300K artillery shells hidden in caves behind the D Day beaches. Hitler was the only one who forbade their using it on the Allies. All of their generals wanted to wipe out the Allied invaders with it. And after 1945, the British inherited this nightmare, which led them to have to dump it in the ocean, twice over.

edit; I'm one of a very few people left, who witnessed the aftermath of a nerve agent attack on a populated town. In my case it was from several aerial applications of micro-encapsulated Parathion, used as an insecticide. When the first couple of applications didn't stop the bugs, the crop dusters kept putting on extra passes of it. Since it still didn't do anything, those pilots just went home. Then late one night, after the local bars closed at 1:00 AM in the morning, the temperature and humidity, both jived together, and a cloud arouse and drifted into our town. Fortunately all the school kids were home asleep, and only a few bar flies, walking home, got the "blind staggers"!

The next morning we heard about it on the Radio News, and when we crested the tall hill to the North of our town, I looked back down at that strange low hanging cloud, which looked like ground fog, although it was in the middle of the Summer growing season, DUH! Needless to say, those crop dusters made themselves scarce for a couple of weeks. It really helped that nobody died here, in that monumental screw up.


edit on 17-3-2018 by carpooler because: Radio News Program



posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 08:17 PM
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originally posted by: Kandinsky
Not stupid at all. Maybe they judged the climate correctly and realised that social media would come out to defend them?

This is the same as ssaying, the russians are stupid.


A Russian nerve agent gets used to kill a Russian traitor and everyone's scratching their heads and blaming the British or the Americans. How long until NK attains angel status? It's coming.


Oh come on ... what a dush bag ....

What Russians are bad guys? Sure.

The US and UK have gone into a 30 year war in the middle, and murdered millions of people. US History, is murdering indians ... paying murderers for indian scalps. Pinkerton getting payed, to murder chinks. Racism ... that should be made an entirely "american" word. The UK, they tried to legalize drug sales ... these flee stinking morons, started the entire slave trade ... along with holland, which is the drug capital of Europe.

You, are defending the greatest murderers in the world ... Adolf Hitler is a bad guy, because he killed only Jews ... the US/UK are good guys, because they systematically murder everybody else. And the swedes, who are famous for murdering their own PM, because he was about to "betray" them to the Soviet Union, are their best friends and always come to the rescue like Hans the Blizz guy, who provided lucid false documentation of weapons of mass destruction, that Saddam Hussein was farting out of his backside. So the US/UK could come in ... and kill a couple of babies, and leave a trail of maimed children in their trail in Fallujah.

People defend Russia, because they are pussies ... maybe some day they will grow out of the pussie status and decide to blow stuff up, like America and Britain, that blow everything up ... everywhere, and get rich on poppies all over the world.

But, that aint today ... if it was the US, that was in Russias shoes ... then Britains actions here, would be an active declaration of war. And generals in the US wouldnt be hiding and letting politicians blow off the steam a bit, but we would have nukes flying already.

The Russians aint got the stomache for it ... russians, when the people demonstrate ... the soldiers stand down. In the US, or UK ... the soldiers shoot to kill.



posted on Mar, 17 2018 @ 08:32 PM
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a reply to: bjarneorn

Yes people suck.

To have even a vague understanding of history and to pretend this is a modern western invention, or for that matter that the west while not perfect passes a higher bar than any globally influential nation historically is either disingenuous or misinformed.

Care to apply the same historical critique to Russia, you know keeping it in modern history, Romanovs assassinated, genocide in the Ukraine, Lavrentiy Beria etc?




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