Nerve Agent May Not Have Been Manufactured In Russia.

originally posted by: Spacespider
England was quick to blame Russia...

Just as the rest of the world, except me

I think Vladimir Putin likes anything that makes Russia look bigger and badder and more Sinister than it is. He loves the American mainstream media and Democrats. They have given him almost god-like status.

a reply to: Kandinsky

Despite the apparent clumsiness of the attempted assassination/murder, Russia remains the most likely of suspects.

But why?

Is it enough to accuse Russia just based on their past history?

But then what about Our past history?


Our reason could be just as insane as Our claimes are. We have a probable cause to have done this and then to blame Russia just on the basis that they have a very bad past history. Isn't that a pefect probable cause to suspect that we did it.. ?

Its not like we are even trying to establish a good relation With Russia.

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: Fermy

...that would prejudice a fair trial, the very thing that you are claiming is going on here.

Which it plainly is not, is it?

Taking diplomatic action is an entirely different thing.

Imagine there was a universe where an OSCE court for such diplomatic questions is already established.

Btw.: Its the part of the multiverse we live in.

Did you switch the dimensions and suffer from some Mandela effect like dimensional jet lag now?

a reply to: spy66

Past history is a very useful indicator and moreso when it includes recent history too. Russia are numero uno until, or unless, more info becomes available.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: spy66

Past history is a very useful indicator and moreso when it includes recent history too. Russia are numero uno until, or unless, more info becomes available.

Okay,.. see Your point. But without evidence do we have a right to judge Russia for a crime we can not prove they have comitted?

Parton Down have said that they have no evidence that this agent was made by the Russians or that it is even Russian. Then how can Our government accuse Russia?

The bristish government have spesifically accused Russia and expelled over a 100 diplomats so far. How do you objectivally support that? WHen there are no evidence Russia even did this?

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: Serdgiam

Despite the apparent clumsiness of the attempted assassination/murder, Russia remains the most likely of suspects.

If Porton Down is able to identify some poison as "novichock" do they have to have some of it for comparision?

The Porton Down chemical weapon labs are located 7 miles from the crime scene in Salisbury. They store "novichok" samples there, otherwise no comparision possible.

Russia is how far from Salisbury?

a reply to: spy66

These guys have been playing the espionage game for centuries. The rules are vague and don't include telling us what they do, or do not, know. It's called a game for a reason. Look at the casual nature of the tit-for-tat expulsions and how they still keep Embassies open in respective countries. It's a political game.

If you choose to believe one side isn't playing the game it's cool.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: spy66

Past history is a very useful indicator and moreso when it includes recent history too. Russia are numero uno until, or unless, more info becomes available.

Past history also shows that the US was willing to lie and fabricate evidence of WMDs in order to invade Iraq and cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Past history shows that the UK was very willing to go along with this outrageous scam and shameful chapter of history, perhaps by ignorance, perhaps not.

Past history therefore also shows that the poisoning of the British spy could be a joint US/UK operation in order to frame Russia and give the US/UK/NATO an excuse for ramping up the cold war and turning it into another real war.

Your "past history" argument works both ways. At least for those of us who haven't already convenitantly forgotten all about the disgraceful invasion of Iraq.

a reply to: greyhat

If Porton Down is able to identify some poison as "novichock" do they have to have some of it for comparision?

Well they have a problem you see..... Becaue the US was asked By Uzbekistan to help out to destroy Novichoks in the 1990s. In 1999 ABC News posted a article about Uzbekistan asking the US to help them destroy a old Russian chemical weapons factory, and one agent in particular..... Novichoks.

If the Uk want to pin this on Russia they must have a sample of the agent that Connects the chemical compuond to the Russians. Something parton Down have not been able to do. THe odd thing si that the formula for the Russian compund have already been given to the publick. If Parton Down have not been able to Connect this formula to the actuall russian formula. How can they Connect the dots? Well Parton Down couldent. but the British government could. How do you make sense of that?

a reply to: MostlyReading

Yes, my 'past history argument' works both ways which is why I posted it and specifically cited examples.

Thank you for reiterating my points with such a flourish.

a reply to: Kandinsky


And thank you for the sarcasm. Uncalled for, but thanks anyway.

a reply to: Kandinsky

I would absolutely agree.

That's a big part of my point actually. On one side, we have western governments who have a history of fabricating evidence to meet agendas, and on the other, perhaps one of the more vicious governments in the modern world.

Bluntly, I could see it going either way in this scenario. However, I'd say the western governments have more motive for fabrication than Russia does for sloppy assassinations.

Either way though, its concerning, you know? Socially, we have Russia with the underdog status, as you say, but conversely we also have the heavy-handed demonization of them on the other side on many hot button topics. The evidence points to Russia, but that's the very thing that the west has a history of manipulating and outright fabricating.

Overall, I do suspect this is the foundation of a new form of conflict between nations. In a sense, similar to a cold war, but more appropriately coined (not by me) "MindWar."

To me at least, that's the biggest concern of all. Its sold as a superior form of conflict than physical combat, but I'm not at all convinced. If it leads to physical conflict all the same, we then have the compounded issue of the "MindWar" on top of it.

In this event specifically, I'm not even sure it matters whodunit honestly. The west and Russia were going to use it exactly the same either way. And that is a problem.

Forget about it.

a reply to: oldcarpy


So the Uk gummint points at Russia, I post an article that TRUTHFULLY states how guilt is suggested over innocence first but you find that amusing which tells me you are the one who is blinkered by your mania, not the so called Putin defenders of which I am not one. If he did it let's see the evidence and sorry, but "the gummint don't disclose their sources" isn't good enough because gummints lie. ALL THE TIME.
FACT: The Russians came up with this poison initially.
FACT: Other governments know the formula and have done for decades.
FACT: It is comparatively easy to manufacture to the trained eye.
FACT: It could easily have been smuggled out when the plant was decommissioned.
FACT: Porton Down have samples, whether they were given them or created them is probably moot.
FACT: Espionage is a dirty game that specialises in deceit, it is its entire ethos.
FACT: Nothing is clear here except for innuendo and the opinion of someone who lives locally and believes that makes them an expert.

Get over yourself, I'm not trying to paint you as a victim or bend to my will but I have my views of this and nothing you have written has changed the narrative one iota.

a reply to: Serdgiam

In this event specifically, I'm not even sure it matters whodunit honestly. The west and Russia were going to use it exactly the same either way. And that is a problem.

Yes indeed.

The major powers are circling each other and it's a genuine concern that we're potentially in that Franz Ferdinand scenario. One move too far and who knows what will happen?

originally posted by: Kurokage
a reply to: spy66


It is evidence to show Russia has a Modus operandi for doing this sort of thing, Putin was KGB which was famous for poisoning it's targets, he's also the previous head of the FSB.

France invented the guillotine but they are not responsible for ISIS beheadings, d'ya see what it is yet?

a reply to: Fermy


Thank you for your shouty rant. Me, blinkered? "Gummints lie" - except Russia who cannot tell a lie. Got it.

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: Fermy


Thank you for your shouty rant. Me, blinkered? "Gummints lie" - except Russia who cannot tell a lie. Got it.

LoL.....

No one is saying that Russia dont lie..... It is not the issue. The issue is that the British government have accused Russia without having proper evidence to pin this criminal act on them.

Just because Russia lies, don't make Our lies more truthfull.

A few things I would like to point out.....

Firstly Porton Down and the government have never said that this was made in Russia its always been the line that it is of a type or very similar to a type developed by the Russians. This is just one piece of a larger intelligence picture, this remains a open murder investigation that is being carried out with the police and security services so the full details are just not going to be made public right now. I know that for many that is just not good enough and you all want to see a picture of Vlad personally poising this poor guy before you will believe it was Russia but that simply is not going to happen.

Secondly, lets assume this is some UK false flag and the scientists at Porton Down had secretly made this stuff then it was removed from their stores and used to poison Skripal (because...reasons) then would it not make more sense for them to come out and say "100% Russian made" rather than their slightly more vague message. Also why, really why would the UK want this guy dead I see not motive but plenty of motive with the Russians.

Ohhh and speaking of motive another point I would like to make.

Lets assume that Skripal was a source for Christopher Steel (something Orbis have denied) then again would that not also indicate that the Russians would want him dead more than just about anyone if he is the key to the smoking gun that proves Trump is a Russian agent who was pissed on by a few prostitutes? They don't want that getting out.

Finally if this was not Russia can someone please provide an alternative theory because so far all I have seen is people questioning the current official narrative with out providing an alternative version of events that can be scrutinised.

a reply to: Fermy


Yes, but we are not just talking about the method we are talking about the person who we know to have ordered assassinations previously by similar methods.