Russia and the Skripal Assasination Attempt.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Fair questions that have been raised quite a few times now

Why would they use Novichok if they new it would be traced back to them?

This question in itself does not prove that Russia was not behind this attack just by the virtue of asking it, this is a ongoing investigation and inevitably there are going to be unanswered questions. I cannot say for sure why they would use a poison that can be traced back to Russia because nobody knows why they picked one poison over another. My belief is that they picked a poison they knew would be attributed to them because they wanted to send a message, they wanted the world to know they done this even in their own denials. They wanted to send the message, you cross us we kill you.

I would also point out that if this was some kind of false flag then logically would it more make more sense to use polonium 210 as the poison as this would make it easier to push the Russian narrative over using something that nobody has ever heard off.

Why would Skripal be poisoned in another country, and not while he was stuck and defenceless in a Moscow jail for high treason?

Well he was rotting in a Russian jail, then came the 2010 Russian spy ring found in America and his release was negotiated as part of a prisoner swap arrangement. If that had never happened he most probably would have just died in a Russian jail.

Why now is another good question, I give some possibilities in my OP but again without knowing the specifics all we can do is speculate.

This reeks of a frame job.

why?

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

OSOTC, by all accounts you're probably right that Russia is behind this.

I just can't shake this part

The nerve agent novichok was developed and produced in Shikhany, home of a military research establishment in central Russia, according to a chemical weapons expert. Hamish de Bretton-Gordon said the information was contained in a report submitted several years ago by Russia to the international body that monitors chemical weapons, the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW)

How come the Russians are lethal-effective at all their shadowy endeavors, yet manage to muck up 1) the trolling 2) the DNC server "hack" and 3) this poisoning

It seems Putin needs to find some better trained staff, or we are missing something significant. Is it possible a third party wants to start a war or increase tensions? Did they steal it from a poorly guarded Russian facility? Or did the Russian government murder a child (and some spy)?

Anyways, thanks for keeping these topics alive

a reply to: JBurns

How come the Russians are lethal-effective at all their shadowy endeavors, yet manage to muck up 1) the trolling 2) the DNC server "hack" and 3) this poisoning

It is interning isn't it?

Its almost like they operate without really caring about getting caught, for the sake of avoiding a debate about the 2016 election, lets even just look at how the Russian hacking group ATP28 interfered with the election in Ukraine, they were caught doing that.

They were caught poisoning litvineko.

I don't think its really got anything to doing with Russia needing better staff, I think its a mixture of wanting the world to know what they have done and them getting caught out. I also think that Russia hold more power in the globe than we care to acknowledge and this also helps them act with impunity. This is a country that can influence government elects and undermine democracy, assassinate without prosecution, can hold all of Europe to ransom by cutting off the gas supplies and at the head of this powerful state we have the worlds wealthiest and richest man.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
They were caught poisoning litvineko.

But they very nearly got away with that one.

The question that now needs to be asked is how many ex-Russian nationals have been killed undetected? There is speculation that 14 Russians have died in (now) questionable circumstances in the UK. This could have been a messed-up attempt which had it been successful would have just been another death of an elderly man.

Russia killed a former KGB spy by poisoning his tea with polonium.
Source: digg.com...

That was quite a few years ago. Why would the country use a "cruder" method now? Doesn't make sense.

originally posted by: carewemust
That was quite a few years ago. Why would the country use a "cruder" method now? Doesn't make sense.

Was it a "cruder" method than spreading radiation around half of London?

1. If this was the plan then the message has been sent and Putin's engineered some good domestic PR via the state controlled media.
2. If it was a botched job then Russia and a failed attempt, then (er) Putin is engineering good domestic PR etc...
3. If it had succeeded the no one would have known that a nerve agent was used.

It seems killing ex-Russians by Russia can have positive consequences for Putin's regime whichever way you cut it.

a reply to: Itisnowagain



Very good video

I'm on the fence on this one. I could see it going either way. But I'm leaning toward Russia being behind it.

I've been considering all the other theories and a question that's often raised. "why would they be so dumb using this method?". In the back of my head I keep hearing "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar".

how many ex-Russian nationals have been killed undetected?

This is a very good question in my opinion. Let's assume (hypothetically) that Russia has "eliminated" 100 targets. Wouldn't that increase the odds of 1 or 2 being a failed attempt? Something would have to go wrong for them at some point.

But, on the other hand, there is a mountain of reasons it could be anybody but Russia. Probably too many to even list. Hell, it might just be a personal feud with this guy and some old Russian acquaintance finally "snapping".

I don't know the answer, but I sure hope cooler heads prevail.

Skripal was linked to Fusion GPS The hit was on the daughter as well . It has been implied Skripat was repatriating back to Russia with his daughter. He had a story to tell about who funded the dossier with Fusion gps. Deadmen tell no tales
a reply to: crayzeed

The argument that Russia wants the world to know doesn't make sense because they are already facing immense pressure from many nations right now and already dealing with sanctions. Also, if it was created during WWII I see no reason it couldn't be created in 2019 by researchers with the right equipment. To assume an origin simply based on who first created it seems very silly. Also the argument that it must be true because the world is in agreement is also ridiculous, strong accusations require strong evidence, and so far I've seen nothing but flimsy speculation fueled by a desire to reaffirm the notion Russia is an evil boogeyman.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
They were caught poisoning litvineko.

But they very nearly got away with that one.

The question that now needs to be asked is how many ex-Russian nationals have been killed undetected? There is speculation that 14 Russians have died in (now) questionable circumstances in the UK. This could have been a messed-up attempt which had it been successful would have just been another death of an elderly man.

Like is said in the OP when you start looking at possible Russian assassinations in the UK it turns into a massive rabbit hole that is quite fascinating.

It is possible that this is just a attack they expected to just get away with, go unnoticed, just another old dude found dead on a bench.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Also, if it was created during WWII I see no reason it couldn't be created in 2019 by researchers with the right equipment

Well it was created as a fourth generation nerve agent during the 70s/80s its not quite as old as WWII and its still a highly advanced nerve agent.

As for why they wouldn't use something more modern just take a look at the Chemical Weapons Convention.

originally posted by: crayzeed
People are not looking at the time line. This nerve agent starts working, after exposure, within 30 seconds and within 2 minutes severe symptoms. Now think on this. They have found traces of the substance in a restaurant, where they had a meal. Then they went to a pub where they found traces there. THEN they went to the bench where they were found.
That is a significant amount of time. Some people have said they were only exposed to a small amount. Come on, come on, this is supposed to be the most dangerous nerve agent going and they had enough on them to leave traces in 3 different places.

Was the variant of Novichok used fast acting? It is suggested that in powder form it can be slower to produce symptoms. In that case the timeline is nothing abnormal.

Novichoks were designed to be more toxic than other chemical weapons, so some versions would begin to take effect rapidly - in the order of 30 seconds to two minutes. The main route of exposure is likely to be through inhalation, though they could also be absorbed through the skin. However, in powder form an agent might take longer to cause a reaction.

It is claimed that the Russians have been informed of the variant of Novichok used (Novichok A234)

Russia's ambassador to the UK, Alexander Yakovenko, has suggested British authorities have identified the variant used in the Skripal attack as A-234. Speaking to Rossiya 24 TV, he said: "According to their specification, it's the poisonous substance A-234. That's the British classification." The BBC's security correspondent Gordon Corera says the implication of these comments is that Russia has been informed by the British of the specific agent used. But he adds: "So far, British officials have not confirmed that they have communicated this to Moscow, or that the A-234 was the exact agent deployed. "Based on public sources, A-234 is one of the Novichok family of agents... Little is known about it but the symptoms track closely with those eyewitnesses attributed to Sergei and Yulia Skripal - as do other similar nerve agents."

News link

"With Novichok, you have the potential for a slower-release agent, which gives you much more control," said Andrea Sella, a professor of inorganic chemistry at University College London.

News link

Their survival so far suggests the Novichok poison was designed to be slow-acting or to be absorbed through the skin, because this route of administrations takes longer to cause symptoms than inhalable nerve agents like sarin, says Lamb.

Article link

originally posted by: carewemust
Russia killed a former KGB spy by poisoning his tea with polonium.
Source: digg.com...

That was quite a few years ago. Why would the country use a "cruder" method now? Doesn't make sense.

I don't think its really a cruder method its just a different method.

Something that has puzzled me (and others, it seems) is why, if this Novichok is so deadly, how come the Skripal's are not dead? I assumed that if this nerve agent was more deadly than VX that death would be pretty instantaneous.

Then I saw this old article about a Russian scientist who was working on a Novichok binary weapon who was accidentally exposed. He was not in the same critical condition as the Skripal's but he took around 5 years to die:-

Russian Scientist Exposed to Novichok

Litvinenko seems to have been killed in a particularly exotic/nasty way so as to send a message. It seems that this incident has been tailored to do the same.

Porton Down stated that the sample was Novichok OR A SIMILAR AGENT. So not cut and dried.

a reply to: Fermy


Have you got a source for that?

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: Fermy


Have you got a source for that?

www.judiciary.gov.uk...

Scroll down to 16. The evidence.

a reply to: Fermy


Thanks. What you have posted is the judgment of a High Court Judge hearing an application under the Mental Capacity Act. The Court is simply making a decision under the act about whether the Court will grant permission for blood samples and medical records to a third party, the OPCW, as the Skripals are in no state to provide such consent.

The "evidence" referred to is the evidence in support of that application, the Court is not being asked to consider anything else.

That is simply the sort of language Judges use. You can't really read much more into this.

The OPCW will report it's findings in a couple of weeks so let's see what an independent expert body makes of the evidence, shall we?