Congestion Tax?

I just saw a show that was talking about traffic solutions (and pollution). One of the steps they highlighted being taken is congestion taxes in London. I started doing some more research on this and wow......that stuff can add up.

BBC
Drivers pay £5 per day, by telephone, text message, post, internet, or in person at a retail outlet. Drivers will also be able to purchase daily, weekly (£25), monthly (£110) or annual (£1,250) passes.

And I see there's several other cities around the world taking these measures. So my question is this: do you see this as a viable system to both free up traffic and provide capital income; or another "big brother"-like nuisance?

This is something I personally wouldn't like to see being adopted here in the states.

This is something I personally wouldn't like to see being adopted here in the states.

Why not? Driving is a priviledge not a right you know. It may even get rid of a good bunch of bad drivers to boot. I think getting a drivers licence should be alot harder then it is right now(well I do not know how hard it is in the US but in Canada its fairly easy to get one, takes around 2 years) Also I think less roads would be a good idea. Give people an incentive to walk more thus reducing Health Care costs. The University of Toronto just a few years back adopted a no car policy on school grounds, redid all the roads into walkways and parks and guess what, it feels sooo much more idunno comfortable and laid back.

u cant walk in london- its far too big!!!! and you need a viable public transport system in place before you can implement a scheme such as this....

however, i believe its working in london i dont know figures, but traffic is nowhere near as bad as it was a couple of years ago, so there is some merits in congestion taxing.

i'm not a fan of congestion charging, unless you can provide a quality, efficient and safe public transport system. it is my guess that most cities in the UK cant claim to offer this.

Originally posted by sardion2000

Why not?

We don't need any more taxes. We don't need more camera's trained on our populace recording where we've been and when. You can't be alarmed over one form of "big brother" like the Patriot ACT, and then allow for it in other areas. That's the long and short.

If anything more tax credits for people that use public transportation.

Well much to my own surprise (I expected the thing to be totally unworkable and fall flat on it's @ss in a couple of weeks) there seems to be little doubt that the London congestion charge is working.

I'm sure there will be cases on the margin that sound terrible etc etc but nevertheless funding is being raised and ploughed into public transportation and the ridiculous level of London traffic (ie gridlock for several hours per day on many of the main routes routes) is abating.

It seems to be the only way.

I just wish it had been in force when I used to commute into London. If I was really lucky (like during the school holidays) I could make my 12mile journey in about 45 minutes.
On a bad day it could be (seriously) 3hours +, each way, every day, month in month out for over 7 years I did that soul-destroying sh*t......
.....and that was nearly 11yrs ago so I can only guess at how much worse it had gotten before this came in.

Everything else was tried, major new roads (great for about 3mths until they too locked up), red routes (crucify anyone parking on a major thorough-fare), signal synchronisation etc etc. All gave a short term gain quickly lost in the rising traffic levels.

No point bitching about the charge, it works and that kind of insanity just couldn't be allowed to go on.



[edit on 16-2-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

No point bitching about the charge, it works and that kind of insanity just couldn't be allowed to go on.

Yup! I am hoping david miller(mayor of toronto) does something similiar, allthough he is socially libertarian so he might not be down with that and to tell you the truth Torontos gridlock isn't that bad, at least not as bad as you described it in the UK. I do not think this will ever be a country wide phenomenon and I think in say 20 years time both US and Canada are going to be in pretty much the same place. Another Idea that i just read about to ease congestion was to strategically close off certain streets. Very counter-inuitive but in computer simulations it worked! Another usefull idea is using laser tripped Stop Lights to minimize wait time and idleing. There are lots of ideas out there gridlock is here to stay until we all get a skycar then we'll have to worry about Skyjams(j/k too much room up there even if all 6 billion of us were up in our own skycar)

So what I am hearing from many liberals here is that it is ok to tax the poor and lower middle classes. The rich care less about such fees but the poor would have to pay a larger percentage of their income. Should not this be graduated also? Personally, I care less. GB's people can do what ever they want to each other. Over here in God's country, I fully expect the liberals to start taxing the air we breath or more correctly the air we exhale. They will call it the "peoples green house gas tax" necessary to comply with the Kyoto treaty. Those of you with emphysema should get a reduced rate. Whats wrong with congestion anyway? I lived in California and it was maddening. I did not like it so I moved. Best thing ever by getting me out of that nut farm. Californian's likely glad to see me go so something good came from congestion. Thanks for the info mates. One more reason for me never to go back to Europe. Glad that pleases you as well. Happy to oblige y'all.

Maybe I should remind yall what it means to be a Libertarian.

Taxes bad, anarchy good!

If congestion is not anarchy, then what is?

[edit on 16-2-2005 by Reaganwasourgreatest]

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

No point bitching about the charge, it works and that kind of insanity just couldn't be allowed to go on.

Cool......I figured you'd have something to say Sminkey. I wanted to see what some UK residents' thoughts were. The show I saw was pretty much a fluff piece on PBS (US public broadcasting for those that don't know). My mother was in London for two weeks last Fall (when Bush was there even). She walked no matter what because she wanted to take everything in.

Reaganwasourgreatest, please do not smear my name by calling me a Liberal plz, Gridlock is a major problem, and already my home city of Toronto is think of doing the same. I do not drive but I will be getting alot of feelings and quotes from my friends when it does happen and I will post them on PTS for all y'all.

Originally posted by Reaganwasourgreatest
So what I am hearing from many liberals here is that it is ok to tax the poor and lower middle classes.

- Whilst I have no doubt that some (but not many) of those that drive into and work in and around London might conceivably be called "poor" I'd suggest it is exactly this kind of exaggeration which renders debate on this difficult.

IIRC everyone before this charge came in claimed it would 'drive them to the wall'.
The reality was somewhat different.
It was - in 999 999 cases out of 1 000 000 - pure self-serving empty rhetoric.

We 'westerners' are hardly actually 'poor' and you'll struggle to find that many 'working poor' in London.
I did admit there would be some caught stuck on the margin but when this thing is viewed overall I do not see how one can ignore the fact that this system works when so many others have failed.

The rich care less about such fees but the poor would have to pay a larger percentage of their income.

- Ah.
So it's what you think of as a lack of 'progressive-ness' to this conjestion charge that bugs you is it?
I must have missed that somehow.
Don't worry, there are other measures in place you probably aren't aware of.

Taxing company cars - especially those with ludicrously over-sized engines, taxing the parking spaces some companies provide to their workforce as a free perk, replacing the flat-rate vehicle excise duty with a banded duty with a progresively more expensive duty being levied on the more absurd engine sizes etc etc.

All helping to stop encouraging people to use cars as a matter of routine in the city.
..... and, by singling out the largest engine-sizes especially, ensuring that those who do insist on polluting the most pay the most.
In this way the 'wealthy' who might well carry on regardless pay the price for it and help fund the improving public transportation services.

(and at the current rates of income generation London should have something by way of a public transportation network to be proud of - once again - in the coming 10 yrs)

I fully expect the liberals to start taxing the air we breath or more correctly the air we exhale.

- If our city atmosphere wasn't so polluted jokes about a fresh-air tax might even be a little funny.

How are your cities' asthma and respiritory disease rates? Got kids of your own yet?

I'd rather people weren't 'free' to unwittingly damage the health of others, actually.

Whats wrong with congestion anyway? I lived in California and it was maddening. I did not like it so I moved.

- It costs us all a lot of wasted money/resources in so many ways (prices, time, health services, road maintenance etc etc).
But you moved, good for you. Yeah, problem 'solved'.
Jazuss wept.

Thanks for the info mates. One more reason for me never to go back to Europe.

- Oh don't worry I'm sure we'll make it without you.
But you could do everyone a favour and stop pretending it's a 'Europe only' thing, what we do today on this will be copied the world over (cos the world is watching how this is working out).

......and in fact we were not the first, I believe that happened in the far east.

(but no doubt you'll not bother calling Singapore(?) closet Marxists etc etc)

Taxes bad, anarchy good!

- Yeah, ok, that's nice.
But some of us are now out of our hedonistic teens - or just generally have our heads from out of our selfish self-centred @sses - and appreciate the need and value of a cohesive and healthily functioning society.


[edit on 17-2-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

actually sminkeypinkey is dead on on this, I just head that the Premier of Ontario is giving Toronto the authority to do this very type of program. And we get to keep the money from it too as long as it goes into public transportation, i think there are other stipulations as well but I really look foward to see how this system works out over here. It's getting bad considering that we had the very first smog day in January! Middle of fricken winter... of course it also didn't help that it was also 20 above celsuis..

Originally posted by sardion2000
actually sminkeypinkey is dead on on this, I just head that the Premier of Ontario is giving Toronto the authority to do this very type of program. And we get to keep the money from it too as long as it goes into public transportation

- Exactly sardion.

The point is that we end up with safe, efficient, affordable and attractive public transportation for all and end the dependance on the car.

The time of the private car is almost over, they are a luxury we cannot afford IMO.

Anyhoo motorcycles are where it's at if you want to talk fun and the whole 'freedom' thing (and they don't congest or wreak havoc on the environment like cars and SUV type trucks do)

(cue the ravings of those who damn all collectivised action and want to do as they damn well please and, basically, f*ck everyone else)

[edit on 17-2-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Yeah and to tell you the truth the public transportation in Toronto is in a decripid state. They DID just finish an expansion on a new line but its only like 5 stops Most of the main Arteries in the Subway system, take for example Young/Bloor pretty much the main hub for the Toronto Transit Commision, they started renovations 10 years ago worked for like 3 months then stopped with the job half done. They have raised fairs pretty much every 2-3 years for the past 15 years because funding didn't keep up with the costs of maintanance and could not be utilized to buy new equipment. We are just now getting our act together, and I think what clinched it was back in 1996-98(I forget what year it was a while ago but alot of people still remember it..i like to think it as one of the first nails in the Conservative gov'ts coffin(provincal gov't and municipal)) the TTC went on Strike for 2 days. The entire downtown core and most of the outlieing regions pretty much were shut down, gridlock took over it was pretty much chaos. Alot of people started biking and walking to work and school for those 2 days it felt like I was in Tokyo... thats why we need to do this as without proper funding the city would eventually look like Tokyo in like 20-30 years... David Miller Dalton McGuinty for a change

[edit on 17-2-2005 by sardion2000]

I imagine that I am older than both of you, and would not be surprised if my 19 year old daughter is. They anarchy that I embrace is that contrary to worldly opinion. I am not of this world. Maybe because of that fact, i should not be allowed to vote because of my residency status (like someone said recently). Fine, then do not make me pay taxes. The money the Bureaucratic thieves take from me would pay for many a medical procedure without all the blood sucking middlemen.

As to the suggestion of a user tax (sounded like to me), Amen! You want government medical insurance, you pay for it. You want to depend on government employee's protection your flights, pay for it when you buy a ticket. My contention and that of many true libertarians, do not stick a gun or law to my head to pay for something somebody else is going to use (standing military army is an exception).

As for calling anyone a liberal, I am a true liberal. Most self proclaimed and labeled falsely, liberals are in fact Marxists.


Republicans are socialists. Democrats are Marxists. I vote republican strictly to chose between the lesser of two evils. The fact that I vote for any of those pukes affects my conscious because I am then am supporting evil even if it is the lesser of the two.

Ed, my baby brother is a republican. I can not blame him if he wants his vote to count. My votes for libertarian candidates are really wasted and therefore I feel I have no representation. Then again I am not a resident.

Originally posted by Reaganwasourgreatest
You want government medical insurance, you pay for it. You want to depend on government employee's protection your flights, pay for it when you buy a ticket. My contention and that of many true libertarians, do not stick a gun or law to my head to pay for something somebody else is going to use (standing military army is an exception).

great and when you need the police, dial 999 (or 911) with your credit card and when you need streetlights, you'll need to put a coin in the meter, or if you want to drive on the roads, make them toll roads. if you want your trash collected, you'll need to pay for that too. etc, etc, etc.

you may be old, but wise you certainly are not. i am sure you use all the above mentioned services and many more. paid for with YOUR tax dollars. america would be on its knees if the government thought like you.

Originally posted by gareth_24
america would be on its knees if the government thought like you.

- Many Americans are, night after night, praying for the money to fund the first major medical proceedure they or a loved one needs.

Private insurance is great (for those that can afford it) right up until your HMO (Health Maintenance Organisation) cuts you off for being in too much of a repeated need or too old or needing a proceedure just too expensive.

I'll take a 'socialised' medical system over the US private model anyday of the week.

Quote"great and when you need the police, dial 999 (or 911) with your credit card and when you need streetlights, you'll need to put a coin in the meter, or if you want to drive on the roads, make them toll roads. if you want your trash collected, you'll need to pay for that too. etc, etc, etc. "

I do not call 911 nor have I ever. I shoot all my problems and feed them to dog.

Streetlights are a pian in the.....the glare from those HPS lights impairs my reptilian vision.

Toll roads? Amen, or high license plate fees...user tax folks!

Trash collected...$25 a month and I have to bag it in those stupid see though bags for recycling...you know, save the earth thing? Of course it all ends up in a landfill but it is presorted to suit the idiots. We do not want bags of cans being contaminated with #2 plastic in the same hole do we?


Wise, please feed me! But first, let me get sh..faced drunk so I can understand your mindless dribble. When I drool, I can understand dribble.

Congestion is your problem, I concur. Taxes the solution, I am sceptical.

I prefer to move to the country with the rednecks, cows and chickens. Where i can leave my house unlocked as I go on "holiday" for two weeks, leave my keys in my big !@#!@ car, a Lincoln Town Car (which I might add is great for running faeries driving minis off the road), and depend on those evil hater Christians to collect my mail and feed my big !@!@%$ dog that somehow can sense the evil in certain people. That last one blows even my brilliant mind. No, potheads she does not discriminate by race.

Originally posted by Reaganwasourgreatest
Ed, my baby brother is a republican. I can not blame him if he wants his vote to count. My votes for libertarian candidates are really wasted and therefore I feel I have no representation. Then again I am not a resident.

My dearest older and more gray sibling, I am not a Republican and you know that, I am an independent who votes for the conservative candidate be it democrat or republican. BUT that being said I vote for the elephant 95% of the time because yes, most Democrats are socialist marxists....And I do feel glad I voted for a man who will call Christ his Lord and Savior.

Originally posted by Reaganwasourgreatest
I prefer to move to the country with the rednecks, cows and chickens. Where i can leave my house unlocked as I go on "holiday" for two weeks, leave my keys in my big !@#!@ car, a Lincoln Town Car (which I might add is great for running faeries driving minis off the road),

Now brother what would that leave me to hit with my Yukon? Your POS Ford might get better gas mileage and have a better ride, but mine is worth more and pisses these leftist sickos off even more. Hell I could run over a mini and think I hit a pothole! (By the way we have those, seems out tax dollars are spent on other things)

Somehow the idea that ed and reag drove around in their ridiculously over-compensatory 'wang mobiles' just doesn't come as any surprise to me at all.

Waaaaay too obvious.

well u know what they say sminkey - the size of their cars is probably just over-compensating because theyre lacking in other areas......just a theory