U.S. Manufacturing Isn't Dwindling Away

You'd swear on the ground it's not the case after seeing so many factories closed down and outsourced. Apparently the stats show differently:

Everybody knows that there are fewer manufacturing jobs in the U.S. than there used to be. To be precise, there are 6.998 million fewer manufacturing jobs now than when employment in the sector hit its all-time high of 19.533 million in June 1979. Manufacturing's share of nonfarm payroll employment has dropped from a wartime peak of 38.8 percent in November 1943 to 8.5 percent now.

But as econowonks have a habit of pointing out whenever the state of manufacturing in the U.S. comes under discussion, as it has with President Donald Trump's pledge to impose stiff new tariffs on steel and aluminum imports, U.S. manufacturing output hasn't collapsed. In inflation-adjusted terms, in fact, it is more than twice what it was back in 1979, when manufacturing employment peaked.

www.bloomberg.com...

America is still competitive in the market and exports are still a major part of the economy - it has increased as a matter of fact over the years. So how does this link up with the decline in manufacturing jobs? Simply put, we're producing things far more effeciently than we did 20 or 30 years ago and there in lies the dilemma..... you want to protect and bring jobs back to home soil and promote American made goods domestically in an ever technologically advancing society where we simply don't require that many employees. It's not a left or right thing, it's reality.



I was actually a supporter of increasing Tariffs in the past - I'm a believer of protecting jobs on soil. That being said, reality barks at that idea. The fact of the matter is, it's simply far more cheaper to invest in greater technology to carry out manufacturing tasks and, to some extent outsource. Increases in 'tariffs' will do little to nothing to change this trend. That and the fact that the US is heavily dependant on exporting in this inevitably globalizing economy so will be hit hard by retaliatory tariffs.

So far Trump has gone ahead with his steel and aluminium tariffs against China.... a country we import exactly 2% of steel and aluminium from - lower than what we do from Russia (8%), Mexico (9%) and Canada (16%). Given the facts at hand, this is a symbolic jab at China more than practicality... and it's only going to hurt the US in the long run. What we need is to invest in more innovative jobs, new jobs sectors. Chasing or trying to revive the past in the modern age evidently isn't going to work. It no longer takes teams of men to build a Corvette and if it does..... Charlie Chan from Gaungzhou will do it for a fraction - tariffs won't change a damn thing. That's just a reality in this day and age. Time to move on - just like we're doing with coal.

A company can buy a tool from china, or any product actually, and put a label on it or one part on it and it is considered American made. This actually distorts the manufacturing job index, there can be fifty people packing and shipping and three people screwing on the China supplied chuck on the drill. All those jobs could be called manufacturing jobs, even the people answering the phone or getting the orders from Amazon sales.

You cannot trust those figures they have twisted, that practice was put into place under Clinton or Bush. I know it was before Obama and not before Clinton. Made in America does not always mean made in America, it has been like that for many years. It is a scam meant to trick the people into believing something is not true, like the unemployment numbers do.

Hopefully the Republicans fix this problem, the Democrats are the ones who want to enslave the other countries to get cheap products and mark them up to sell here. They want us to have a consumer based economy, that cannot work in a country this big. It can work for something like England or maybe Germany, but they have way less people there to support. Our people need to start making things we need and use otherwise we are at the mercy of the other countries if they decide to stop selling to us. Our economy has gone from one of the best in the world to one that belongs in a toilet, with the big money controling our food and supplies instead of the government working to keep our economy and national security properly safeguarded. Trump is right, we must provide a secure economy for ourselves and not keep giving so much of our money to other countries in a trade imbalance.

There are way fewer real factory jobs here in America now, do not be fooled by the twisted evidence they are giving us, just look around. Even the factories that are out there import the parts from foriegn countries.

When you look at output, you have to look not at money, but at jobs created. We make some of the most expensive stuff ourself, and utilize overseas parts. All the value of that product is considered American made. Also now they consider rent we pay for appartments as a product, that was not considered a product in seventy nine, neither were sales of homes and businesses.

originally posted by: rickymouse
A company can buy a tool from china, or any product actually, and put a label on it or one part on it and it is considered American made. This actually distorts the manufacturing job index,

And what's your source for this? I don't doubt this may be happening, and to a level that may be distorting the figures, but you haven't sourced this. It's unsubstantiated.

You cannot trust those figures they have twisted, that practice was put into place under Clinton or Bush.

So it's all a lie, fake news again. You can't use this excuse everytime you disagree with an OP. What's your source?

Hopefully the Republicans fix this problem, the Democrats are the ones who want to enslave the other countries to get cheap products and mark them up to sell here.

It's all the Democrats fault, of course. I suppose they forced Trump and his buddies to manufacture their products overseas? Did he force the Mar-a-lago to hire some 70 foreign workers instead of Americans?

Just partisan bickering again the OP on your side.

There are way fewer real factory jobs here in America now

There are few Manufacturing jobs yes, had you read the OP you'd note this is meantioned. Even the source says there are $6 million fewer manufacturing jobs. I think you need to read the OP again and comprehend the point put forward.

originally posted by: Southern Guardian

originally posted by: rickymouse
A company can buy a tool from china, or any product actually, and put a label on it or one part on it and it is considered American made. This actually distorts the manufacturing job index,

And what's your source for this? I don't doubt this may be happening, and to a level that may be distorting the figures, but you haven't sourced this. It's unsubstantiated.

You cannot trust those figures they have twisted, that practice was put into place under Clinton or Bush.

So it's all a lie, fake news again. You can't use this excuse everytime you disagree with an OP. What's your source?

Hopefully the Republicans fix this problem, the Democrats are the ones who want to enslave the other countries to get cheap products and mark them up to sell here.

It's all the Democrats fault, of course. I suppose they forced Trump and his buddies to manufacture their products overseas? Did he force the Mar-a-lago to hire some 70 foreign workers instead of Americans?

Just partisan bickering again the OP on your side.

There are way fewer real factory jobs here in America now

There are few Manufacturing jobs yes, had you read the OP you'd note this is meantioned. Even the source says there are $6 million fewer manufacturing jobs. I think you need to read the OP again and comprehend the point put forward.

My source for the first part is from actually getting into sales talks with a Taiwan tool manufacturer who gave me this information and the link to the government regulations. It is true. At least it was about ten years ago, and I have seen nothing yet that the law has changed. Knowing this when I bought my log splitter, I looked on line at some of the American made splitters. They were the same splitter as I bought from Tractor supply saying made in China on them, in fact the only difference in the model number was a C instead of a different letter, they even showed the manual, the parts all had the same identical numbers.

Go look at tools, it is easy to find, even some Snap on tools are this way, the company I was buying from supplied one or two to snapon and other big companies that touted American made tools. You could order the tools with different colors and logos on them if you wanted, same exact air tools.

Part two, I do not have to supply anyone with information links about how they have changed the way they interpret things, it is lucky I know how this was done, I probably posted the links on other posts in the past here, I have so many bookmarks for medical and nutrition links that I discarded stuff like this years ago. I now study the basis of pharma chemistry and it's relationship to food chemistry, I am no longer interested in economic scams that the nation is incorporating. Why would I need to prove anything to you, just consider my posts all pseudo science if you want, I ran across all this stuff years ago when I was interested. I may not be able to work, but I do like to know how things work. All knowledge is good knowledge if it is based on truth and reality and it is applicable to what you apply it to.

That kind of stuff is easily found on the net, look yourself before commenting.Instead of taking that last partial statement of mine alone, read the next paragraph on that post, maybe you need to learn to read everything, that explains that statements relativity.

a reply to: rickymouse

My source for the first part is from actually getting into sales talks with a Taiwan tool manufacturer who gave me this information

I do not have to supply anyone with information links about how they have changed the way they interpret things

Your source is yourself. Ok. Got you.

a reply to: rickymouse

the Democrats are the ones who want to enslave the other countries to get cheap products and mark them up to sell here.

Wait just a second.. How do you back that up? It is the republicans that gave tax breaks to offshore mfg in the name of profits under Bush, and well want to let corps dump their toxic waste in your swimming pool in the name of profit

a reply to: Southern Guardian

It doesn't matter what his source is. You read a Bloomberg article to confirm your bias, so that's that.
Good luck in your dream world.

originally posted by: Southern Guardian
a reply to: rickymouse

My source for the first part is from actually getting into sales talks with a Taiwan tool manufacturer who gave me this information

I do not have to supply anyone with information links about how they have changed the way they interpret things

Your source is yourself. Ok. Got you.

Yeah, after many conversations with the United States representative of the company, I had to verify the info he was giving me. I never got into it much, but was a distributor of their tools for a year. I bought tools for my relatives and friends for a quarter of what they went for on sale at stores. Five bucks for a nice die grinder, they were selling for thirty bucks. I could have called them made in America, just by putting the made in America label on the tools. I could have sold them under any brand name I wanted, They would have even supplied the custom boxes for them, they sell under about twenty brand names here in America. I used to believe that made in America meant they were made here. My sales would have been classified as a manufacturers sales. My accountant had checked on that. I showed cornwell tools guy one of my tools, exact same tool as he had, same part numbers and everything, the manual just had a different name on it. He thought all his tools were made in America till that day. That company sells various tools to most of the major tool distributors in the USA now, under their company name. I quit the distribution because there really wasn't much sales of air tools in this area that didn't come from parent companies, someone farther up on the totem pole got them under his accounts already, Snapon, cornwell, craftsman, soux, ingersoll Rand, and Chicago Pneumatic were all working with the company all ready. So it would just be local and internet sales, I did not feel like just packing boxes and shipping things out all day long.

Considering that there are 50 million more working age people today that there was in 1980 we should be producing more.
Yet it's damn near impossible to buy an American made product.

originally posted by: tinner07
a reply to: rickymouse

the Democrats are the ones who want to enslave the other countries to get cheap products and mark them up to sell here.

Wait just a second.. How do you back that up? It is the republicans that gave tax breaks to offshore mfg in the name of profits under Bush, and well want to let corps dump their toxic waste in your swimming pool in the name of profit

I spent a lot of time investigating what people were saying here on ATS, I have the time to do it. This practice I talked about is actually a practice used by countries throughout history, Spain, England, France, and Germany to name a few. It is just that Democrats think this importing things cheaply is better than us making it. It is an entitlement issue, not strictly a political issue. But it seems like Liberals tend to swing with this more than conservatives, and the majority of the present Democrats are more liberal where the majority of Republicans are more conservative. The Democrats have been more active in pushing this over the last thirty years than Republicans, but both parties were being (campaign contributed) by people who were profiting off of imports. It would be so much easier to say bribed.

a reply to: Southern Guardian

You could take ricky's word for it...or not.

OR, a quick search into where steel is produced:
en.wikipedia.org...

Nucor, which is the largest producer in the U.S. comes in 12th.

It pays to read outside of the box drawn. However, one point that comes up and could prove important is that many steel plants have been closed, so could we even supply the demand? That's where the market comes in I suppose.

It's safe to say that we can't compete with India and China and other still emerging countries when it comes to manufacturing.

There will always be some manufacturing in the US but it will never be what it was before.

It's time to move on or specialize and find a niche market when it comes to manufacturing. It makes sense for some things ut not for others.

originally posted by: Southern Guardian
You'd swear on the ground it's not the case after seeing so many factories closed down and outsourced. Apparently the stats show differently:

Everybody knows that there are fewer manufacturing jobs in the U.S. than there used to be. To be precise, there are 6.998 million fewer manufacturing jobs now than when employment in the sector hit its all-time high of 19.533 million in June 1979. Manufacturing's share of nonfarm payroll employment has dropped from a wartime peak of 38.8 percent in November 1943 to 8.5 percent now.

But as econowonks have a habit of pointing out whenever the state of manufacturing in the U.S. comes under discussion, as it has with President Donald Trump's pledge to impose stiff new tariffs on steel and aluminum imports, U.S. manufacturing output hasn't collapsed. In inflation-adjusted terms, in fact, it is more than twice what it was back in 1979, when manufacturing employment peaked.

www.bloomberg.com...

America is still competitive in the market and exports are still a major part of the economy - it has increased as a matter of fact over the years. So how does this link up with the decline in manufacturing jobs? Simply put, we're producing things far more effeciently than we did 20 or 30 years ago and there in lies the dilemma..... you want to protect and bring jobs back to home soil and promote American made goods domestically in an ever technologically advancing society where we simply don't require that many employees. It's not a left or right thing, it's reality.

I was actually a supporter of increasing Tariffs in the past - I'm a believer of protecting jobs on soil. That being said, reality barks at that idea. The fact of the matter is, it's simply far more cheaper to invest in greater technology to carry out manufacturing tasks and, to some extent outsource. Increases in 'tariffs' will do little to nothing to change this trend. That and the fact that the US is heavily dependant on exporting in this inevitably globalizing economy so will be hit hard by retaliatory tariffs.

So far Trump has gone ahead with his steel and aluminium tariffs against China.... a country we import exactly 2% of steel and aluminium from - lower than what we do from Russia (8%), Mexico (9%) and Canada (16%). Given the facts at hand, this is a symbolic jab at China more than practicality... and it's only going to hurt the US in the long run. What we need is to invest in more innovative jobs, new jobs sectors. Chasing or trying to revive the past in the modern age evidently isn't going to work. It no longer takes teams of men to build a Corvette and if it does..... Charlie Chan from Gaungzhou will do it for a fraction - tariffs won't change a damn thing. That's just a reality in this day and age. Time to move on - just like we're doing with coal.

Well, maybe someone will listen to you, I've been jammering on about this for ages now, but to do that, means you are are partisan or anti-American etc, etc!
You are not allowed to be pragmatic, even if that is the only reality....but diversity, and specialization will be the only way.

a reply to: amazing

It's funny isn't it? We've heard for years on this board from members that the freemarket is the best system and that competition is good..... except when it doesn't suit their narrative. We're going out of our way to protect the coal and steel industries which have, for the most part, refused to branch out and become innovative and more competitive on a global scale. But hey, freemarket right? The hypocrisy never ends.

Don't have any issue with promoting and rewarding businesses this invest back into the country and manufacture American. I do have an issue when we start economically attacking other nations in favor of these businesses - many of whom refuse to move with the times themselves. They expect a government handout, free protection. That's not going to work in today's global economy.

a reply to: JinMI

Nucor, which is the largest producer in the U.S. comes in 12th.

It pays to read outside the box I agree. The United States accounts for 4.4% of the worlds population. China consumes 700 metric tons of steel annually. The US consumes 90 million metric tons in comparison - on par with India. Remember we're also talking about 3 nations above out of what? 193 sovereign nations total? So that argument doesn't fly.

Just because it's Trump doesn't mean you have to agree JinMI. His tariffs plan makes little economic sense - coming from somebody who did say, when Trump was running, his tariffs plan was a good idea. I'm more than happy to be wrong now. We've also got history to go by.

There used to be manufacturing and warehouses in the industrial area of my town. They are gone now. They won't be coming back. The technology has changed and Americans won't work for what is paid off shore or in Mexico.

Industry takes capital to start up, retool with new technology. Where's the money coming from? Taxes, nobody wants more taxes.....

the bottom-line is security & strategic ability... 'profits only' leads to self destruction


for example... to land a man on the Moon & return to Earth... the USA built it total spacefaring infrastructure from the ground up and did not rely on 'Foreign Trade/Production' to do the task at hand

that way of thinking is Strategic self-reliance... and the proper level of ability to produce steel+aluminum along with other industries' capabilities are a necessity to be able to sustain a Nation ...relying on trade and contracts is the lazy way to get taken over by your enemy...

Trump realizes the false, free trade pacts the USA engaged in and now wants to have a basic infrastructure in place to produce our own defense at all levels of strategic necessity... ramping up weapons production could then be initiated whenever threats arose... but to be completely stripped of all industries is a sure-fire way to enslavement


Duh.... its wake up time america

originally posted by: Southern Guardian
a reply to: amazing

It's funny isn't it? We've heard for years on this board from members that the freemarket is the best system and that competition is good.....

Competition is good, it has to be by virtue of what competition is, an ongoing vitality, if you work for a living you can't stand still, and need to be adaptive..cars are one of the most obvious examples..let the quality fail, and you are in trouble, even more so these days because people tend to be more discerning, but in their particular mindset.
Take the Nissan/Renault Quasqai for instance, I personally hate the bloody thing..just nothing going there for me, yet it sells like hotcakes, it just does everything okay, fairly reliable, is a bit taller and relatively cheap, and looks awful but tidy, the automotive version of a McDonald's. That suits a lot of the A to B set, end of story. People who buy sedans arguably have a lot more soul, at least in regard to something on four wheels. And so it goes on, but that's just car manufacture, and it is a job for a dwindling workforce...and not everybody's cup of tea. So you need a job, just so you can buy something or other..so what sort of job? That's the bit that is getting harder not just to get, but in choice as well..you don't want to be somewhere that has obsolescence on the horizon, and that takes vision these days, where things change much faster than someones lifetime. So that's what you need now, competitiveness, adaptiveness, and vision, I don't mean that to be a case of winners and losers though, but that everybody has their niche. Trade unions probably also have a need to play catchup too these days, and emphasise a work ethic of doing the job right instead of just protecting a workers job, or rights regardless..not much point in that if the job no longer exists.
That's not an easy set of circumstances for the young ones today, and for them to make the choices, nor can every parent set them up in a monetary way..thay will also need a lot of thinking about the role of government and citizen interaction...no doubt there is a huge need for all to work together instead of this bullshiite partisan thing...nobody has the right handle on it that way, and frankly it's stupid.

a reply to: Southern Guardian

That's cute. You think Chinese aluminum and steel only come into our country from China.

Actually, it sneaks in from practically everywhere. The only way to really prevent it is to... wait for it... wait for it... place tariffs on ALL aluminum and steel! Pretty difficult concept to grasp. Kudos on your Obama approach though. The "jobs are gone, deal with it," is a great way to gain support. If it takes one person to make something, as opposed to ten 40 years ago, why does that justify selling out what fee jobs remain? It sounds like your argument is, "becuz capitalism," yet you have no issue with that being interpreted as "money in politician's pockets." Which, by the way, includes campaign contributions and foundation contributions.

a reply to: Bluntone22

yeah that would indicate a significant slowing of growth and a decline in job security despite our supposed economic and industrial growth since then. another example how the world is deceiving us with false information that hides the reality of decline, they want us to follow their suggestions supported by deceptive facts and statistics so we willingly destroy our own economy and strengthen foreign economies and big corporations.