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Gen 31:30 And now, though thou wouldest needs be gone, because thou sore longedst after thy father's house, yet wherefore hast thou stolen my gods?
John 10:34-35 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
1Cor 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
Ga 4:8 ¶ Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
1Sa 5:4 And when they arose early on the morrow morning, behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the ground before the ark of the LORD; and the head of Dagon and both the palms of his hands were]/i] cut off upon the threshold; only the stump of Dagon was left to him.
Joh 1:1-3, 14 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. . . . And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:
Re 19:11-13 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Re 19:15-16 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Noinden
1) I am not a protestant. I am a Bible Believing Baptist - Baptist did not come out of the Protestant Reformation.
1. a member of a Protestant Christian denomination advocating baptism only of adult believers by total immersion. Baptists form one of the largest Protestant bodies and are found throughout the world and especially in the US.
... a member of a Christian religious group that is one of the Protestant churches.
2. capitalized : a member or adherent of an evangelical Protestant denomination marked by congregational polity and baptism by immersion of believers only
Word Origin and History for baptist
c.1200, "one who baptizes;" see baptize + -ist. As "member of a Protestant sect that believes in adult baptism by immersion" (with capital B-), attested from 1654; their opponents called them anabaptists.
Early Children of the Reformation
BAPTIST CHURCHES: 369 denominations (1970) originating with the 16th-century Anabaptists, who stressed adult baptism by immersion. The Encyclopedia of Religion says Baptists have “found it difficult to maintain organizational or theological unity,” adding that “the Baptist family in the United States is large, . . . but, as in many another large family, some members do not speak to other members.”
Baptists at first resisted the nickname Anabaptist (meaning, “Rebaptizer”) but gradually adopted the name Baptist as a sort of compromise.
...However, even though this particular revival was heralded as “a glorious and unprecedented epoch in the religious history of Ulster,” it and other revivals like it have not produced religious unity among those who claim a spiritual rebirth.
Such ones will argue that they are united in fundamentals. But this is the same argument used by the rest of Christendom, who rationalize that “what unites Christians is already far more important than the matters that still divide them.” (The Church and Unity) Christendom claims: “Our fundamental unity with each other and with all our fellow Christians is rooted in our baptism in Christ.” (Christians in Communion) To say that the divisions are unimportant because of common faith in Jesus is, however, like saying that cancer is not serious as long as your heart is strong.
The reality is that such modern religious movements have added to the confusion and produced spiritual anarchy as persuasive teachers corral followers for themselves. Jim Jones and David Koresh are recent examples of spiritual leaders who misled thousands. (Matthew 15:14) One Baptist minister is a leading member of the Ku Klux Klan. He links his campaign for white supremacy with a religious revival and says that those who take part in it will “be given the strength of providence on high, given the courage of He who died on Calvary [Jesus Christ].”
Later, in Mongpaw, a small village near the China border, an enraged mob of Baptists burned down a Kingdom Hall. When their vile act failed to intimidate the local Witnesses, the mob burned down the home of a special pioneer and began terrorizing brothers and sisters in their homes. The brothers appealed to the area ruler, but he backed the Baptists. Finally, however, the government intervened and granted the brothers permission to build a new Kingdom Hall—not on the original site at the edge of the village, but right in the center of the village!
In 1949 a Baptist leader in the city of Zaporozh’ye provided local security services with information against five of our sisters, who were then arrested. They were accused of anti-Soviet agitation and were each sentenced to 25 years in prison camps. All their property was confiscated. For seven years until amnesty was granted, they served their terms deep in northern Russia.
Religious Leaders Cooperate With Authorities
In 1950 a young Baptist girl, Vasylyna Biben from Transcarpathia, learned that the clergyman of her church had informed the authorities about the activity of two Witnesses in her community. The Witnesses were arrested and sentenced to six years’ imprisonment. After their release, they returned home, yet showed no animosity toward the clergyman. Vasylyna understood that these Witnesses really did love their neighbors.
“Baptists are much better known for fighting than for peacemaking. . . . When the [American] slavery issue and other developments divided the denominations and then the nation in the nineteenth century, Baptists North and South supported the war effort as a righteous crusade and assumed that God was on their side. Baptists also identified with the national effort in wars with England (1812), Mexico (1845), and Spain (1898), justifying the last two ‘mainly on the grounds of bringing religious liberty to oppressed peoples and opening new areas for mission work.’ The point is not that Baptists desired war rather than peace, but that, for the most part, when war became a reality Baptists supported and participated in the effort.”—Review and Expositor—A Baptist Theological Journal.
originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: whereislogic
Actually, there are differences between the very first edition of the KJV and later editions. It has changed since the first copy of the press. This video mentions how you can tell if you've got a first edition KJV or not (at 1:20):
I have a first edition of the 1611 KJV bible and I gave you the correct information in my above post to Noiden.
You are referencing the New World [JW] bible version of the rejected selected MSS of which your committee used. those MSS are highly rejected by most all Scholars of the KJV biblical MSS translators.
One man with two years of university education mastered 6 languages [no Aramaic] and translated the entire OT and NT with rejected MSS? I don't think you should go there.
From Phillips Academy I went on to college, to Princeton. In my senior year I decided I wanted to teach, and after graduating, I did start at an Episcopal boys’ school, St. Paul’s, in New Hampshire. This was consistent with my background. Growing up, I was a longtime choirboy at the local Episcopal Church. In my area the respectable people were either Unitarian or Episcopalian. So I’d been steeped in the very High Church Episcopalianism but exposed to very little Biblical or spiritual understanding. The Bible was swallowed up in church formalism. Now at St. Paul’s I was immersed in it once again. Everybody—faculty and students—had to go to chapel every weekday and twice on Sunday.
I taught Latin and Greek there for four years. ... The next three summers I studied for and got my master’s degree in Latin and Greek.
Suzanne would come to me and ask:
“Oh, Nicholas, here’s a word that Karen and I studied in the Bible. Could stauros just mean ‘stake’?”
“Well, sure. It does mean ‘stake.’ I don’t know how they ever got ‘cross’ out of stauros. But I’m not surprised. The Christian church has been doing things like that at least since Constantine’s time.”
Later I met Karen’s husband, and after some general discussions a regular Bible study was started. But I had problems. Episcopalianism had given me no knowledge of the Bible, no faith in it. I needed an approach to the study that would satisfy my demand for logic. Was it reasonable to think that the Witnesses—an unpopular minority often scorned and ridiculed—had the scholarship to meet my need?
But then I remembered, minorities with different ideas were often ridiculed by the majority, even despised and persecuted by them, yet ultimately were proved right. Now here are these Witnesses—a minority, different, running around knocking on doors, standing on street corners with their magazines, scoffed at, and often despised and persecuted. Maybe it would be worth listening to them—they just might have something!
One woman, a Baptist, gave me one of these little tracts about the Witnesses, supposedly exposing their errors. In several places it referred to the Greek. So I was curious: Just how knowledgeable were they in Greek. Within a few weeks I had acquired several more similar tracts to examine.
Most of them revolved around the Trinity. They assumed the Trinity to be true, then carefully selected their scholarly authorities to prove it. In fact, the attacks on Witness teachings often focused on the Trinity and on their New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. In Greek, as in English, some words can mean different things in different contexts. The English word “bow,” for instance, can be a courteous bow, a bow of ribbon, or a bow with which to shoot arrows.
In Bible study, however, you look not only at the context but also at other scriptures to see how the word is used in different settings. So you check to see whether you’re leaning on your assumptions or on the evidence. I noticed that these tract writers frequently manipulate the evidence, misrepresent it. On the other hand, the Society was quite honest in looking at all the evidence, all the possibilities, offering their conclusions, but then telling you to decide. After a careful examination of the points of controversy, I saw that the Society was right.
In some places the Trinitarians clearly manipulate the evidence. The classic example of this is, I guess, John 8:58. There Jesus said: “Before Abraham was, I am.” (King James Version) The Trinitarians pick up Jesus’ use of “I am” here and relate it to Jehovah’s statement to Moses in Exodus 3:14 (KJ), “I am that I am.” Because both Jesus and Jehovah used “I am,” they argue that this makes Jesus and Jehovah one. And the Greek root does say am in the present tense at John 8:58.
However, even their own theological grammar books acknowledge that where an expression of past time appears in the sentence, the present tense verb can sometimes be translated as if it has begun in past time and continues up to the present.* This is also true in French and it is true in Latin. Hence, when the New World Translation says “I have been” instead of “I am,” it is translating the Greek correctly. (John 8:58) Yet the Trinitarians act as if ‘No, that’s not even possible!’ So I began to notice this misrepresentation of the evidence on the part of the detractors of the Society.
The year before this, a publication was released by the Watch Tower Society entitled The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures. It proved to be crucial for me.
Incidentally, right at the time when this publication came out, I was assigned to teach at Phillips Academy a course in New Testament Greek. Since I did not learn Greek from a theologian who was teaching New Testament Greek, I was probably much more objective about it. I could look at the words with fresh eyes, free of the traditional, doctrinal notions.
Such preconceptions can really give you eyes that don’t see and ears that don’t hear because if, as you do your research, you’re looking for something to confirm what you already believe, that’s all your eyes and ears will see or hear. Instead of looking to see ‘Well, what’s the whole case?’ they see only what can be used, or misused, to support their preconceptions.
Incidentally, most theologians that I’ve met are not strong in Greek. The quality of Greek scholarship in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures, however, is very good. It’s the kind of thing that a person who really wants to work with the Greek, even though not knowing much Greek, can do a lot with. I feel it’s one of the greatly underappreciated jewels of the Watch Tower Society’s publications.
“The translation is evidently the work of skilled and clever scholars, who have sought to bring out as much of the true sense of the Greek text as the English language is capable of expressing.”—Hebrew and Greek scholar Alexander Thomson, in The Differentiator, April 1952, pages 52-7.
“FULL of falsifications!” Back in the 16th century, that is what opposers said about Martin Luther’s translation of the Bible. They believed they could prove that Luther’s Bible contained “1,400 heretical errors and lies.” Today, Luther’s Bible is viewed as a landmark translation. The book Translating the Bible even calls it “a work of genius”!
In this 20th century, the New World Translation has also been charged with falsification. Why? Because it departs from the traditional rendering of many verses and stresses the use of God’s name, Jehovah. Hence, it is unconventional. But does this make it false? No.
Other Scholars Agree
Why the Harsh Criticism?
Luther’s Bible was criticized because it was produced by a man who exposed the shortcomings of the traditional religion of his day. His translation opened the way for ordinary people to see the truth of much of what he said. Similarly, the New World Translation is criticized because it is published by Jehovah’s Witnesses, who outspokenly declare that many of Christendom’s doctrines are not found in the Bible. The New World Translation—indeed, any Bible—makes this evident.
In fact, the New World Translation is a scholarly work. In 1989, Professor Benjamin Kedar of Israel said: “In my linguistic research in connection with the Hebrew Bible and translations, I often refer to the English edition of what is known as the New World Translation. In so doing, I find my feeling repeatedly confirmed that this work reflects an honest endeavor to achieve an understanding of the text that is as accurate as possible. Giving evidence of a broad command of the original language, it renders the original words into a second language understandably without deviating unnecessarily from the specific structure of the Hebrew. . . . Every statement of language allows for a certain latitude in interpreting or translating. So the linguistic solution in any given case may be open to debate. But I have never discovered in the New World Translation any biased intent to read something into the text that it does not contain.”