Free Will or the Illusion of freedom.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

So, when brain scans prove this very thing that you call junk, how is that not calling science junk, are brain scans and experiments not science?

And as the topic is free will or illusion of free will what would you call a desicion that is made not only unconsiously but also ahead of any time that you become aware of that very same decision.

Would you call that free will or the illusion of free will?

a reply to: Pazuzu666

So, when brain scans prove this very thing that you call junk, how is that not calling science junk, are brain scans and experiments not science?

And as the topic is free will or illusion of free will what would you call a desicion that is made not only unconsiously but also ahead of any time that you become aware of that very same decision.

Would you call that free will or the illusion of free will?

No, I agree with the science, just not your interpretations and implications. Unconscious decisions are a still our decisions. I'm not sure how you could say otherwise, unless you subscribe to the homunculus fallacy, and think you're some little person sitting in your head.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

It is not 'your' brain or 'your' body. It is just a body, just a brain - it does not belong to anyone.
There isn't anyone 'in there' to choose.

That's just the way we describe it. I am a direct 1-to-1 ratio with my body, myself and my body are the same, would be a better way to put it.

The Thinker and Thought
Is there any relationship between the thinker and his thought, or is there only thought and not a thinker? If there are no thoughts there is no thinker. When you have thoughts, is there a thinker? Perceiving the impermanency of thoughts, thought itself creates the thinker who gives himself permanency; so thought creates the thinker; then the thinker establishes himself as a permanent entity apart from thoughts which are always in a state of flux. So, thought creates the thinker and not the other way about. The thinker does not create thought, for if there are no thoughts, there is no thinker. The thinker separates himself from his parent and tries to establish a relationship, a relationship between the so-called permanent, which is the thinker created by thought, and the impermanent or transient, which is thought. So, both are really transient.
Pursue a thought completely to its very end. Think it out fully, feel it out and discover for yourself what happens. You will find that there is no thinker at all. For, when thought ceases, the thinker is not. We think there are two states, as the thinker and the thought. These two states are fictitious, unreal. There is only thought, and the bundle of thought creates the 'me', the thinker.www.jkrishnamurti.org...

I'm impressed at your knowledge. But you have the answer right in from of you and you do not see it.
Thinker and Thought are the same. Two is One. The duality of everything.

a reply to: Abednego
There is no entity thinking. Thought arises which speaks of 'someone' that does thought.
There is no one doing thinking. There is no one doing anything.

No one is doing this - this is being this.

The thinker is thought
Now, if we see the truth of that - that the thinker is thought, that there is no thinker separate from thought, but only the process of thinking - , then what happens? If we see that there is only thinking and not a thinker trying to modify thought, what is the result? I hope I am making myself clear. So far, we know that the thinker is operating upon thought, and this creates conflict between the thinker and the thought; but if we see the truth that there is only thought and not a thinker, that the thinker is arbitrary, artificial and entirely fictitious - then what happens? Is not the process of conflict removed? At present our life is a conflict, a series of battles between the thinker and the thought - what to do and what not to do, what should be and what should not be. The thinker is always separating himself as the `me' remaining outside of action. But when we see that there is only thought, have we not then removed the cause of conflict? Then we are able to be choicelessly aware of thought and not as the thinker observing thought from outside. When we remove the entity that creates conflict, surely then there is a possibility of understanding thought. When there is no thinker observing, judging, moulding thought, but only choiceless awareness of the whole process of thinking, without any resistance, without battle, without conflict, then the thought process comes to an end.jkrishnamurti.org...

originally posted by: Abednego
Does free will really exist or is just an illusion of freedom?
Do you really think you can do whatever you want? or is just the illusion of freedom of choosing between so many options?

Are we really free to choose our path? or our lives are already defined by a set of choices that, in the end will get us to the same place no matter what we choose?

Free will is an illusion. You do not have freedom to who you are born to or what genetics you inherit. All the choices made while conscious are usually made with a prediction of how the choice will determine the future.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Like I said they are the same. Cause and effect.
There is no effect without cause.
Thought alone does not exist. Since thought is the effect of an action. They are depend of each other.

originally posted by: Abednego
a reply to: Itisnowagain

Like I said they are the same. Cause and effect.
There is no effect without cause.
Thought alone does not exist. Since thought is the effect of an action. They are depend of each other.

I am not sure what you are saying.
Are you saying there has to be someone doing thinking for there to be thought? The thinker is the cause of the effect thought? Because it is the other way round - thought creates the illusion that there is a separate someone doing thought.

Are you saying that you are the actor (actionee) of thought? Do you believe that you do thought and choose what thoughts appear? That you are separate to thought?

a reply to: Itisnowagain

There is no one doing thinking. There is no one doing anything.

You've typed responses that nothing but yourself has typed.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Hey Kev, nice to see you. I visited your website a few days ago and realized it had not seen you here. Now I see that it is me who has been frequenting the political forums which you seem to avoid. Good man.

Besides my Buddhist studies years ago, I found neuro-psychology by reading George Lakoff and others who have been doing deep studies into consciousness. It has helped me to seek within myself for, if any, original thought or action. In evaluation of my earlier life, back when I thought I had it figured out, back when I was so sure I was right, I find now that most of it was just those feed back loops built into what I thought was my consciousness.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Thought is the result of thinking. And think is a verb. Is action. An action does not exist by itself unless someone or something do it.

I think that we deviate a little bit of the original post. But I always enjoy a good debate.

a reply to: Abednego

Thought implies a thinker but there is no one thinking.
If there is no one thinking there cannot be free will.

What is happening is happening - nothing is doing what is happening - it's just happening.

a reply to: Abednego

So everything is sloped based on order of difficulty..

Or sloped on a curve of differences..

We have a basic situation in which we are from.. that is our freedom.. and the things we do is based on salience to our enviroment.. so we do what is in our awareness to do.. but it is attached to our personal situation..

So things are rated based on how likely they will happen..

All basic situations are the same abstractly and that means we are stuck, or in chains.. the chains are that which we did, and what we are doing.. and what we will do..

It only the future that you can change.. by changing in this very instant of experience..

What is IS.

originally posted by: Abednego
Does free will really exist or is just an illusion of freedom?
Do you really think you can do whatever you want? or is just the illusion of freedom of choosing between so many options?

Are we really free to choose our path? or our lives are already defined by a set of choices that, in the end will get us to the same place no matter what we choose?

I do what my brain tells me.

Unless it clashes with my wife's orders.

Yes, I feed my brain the info and let it figure it out, I rarely "think".

Kinda cool when all the answers just show up.

But yeah, you never zigged when you should have zagged?

I do what my brain tells me.

Unless it clashes with my wife's orders.

I hear you man. We, innocently, gave up our freedom and capacity of self guidance.

Yes, I feed my brain the info and let it figure it out, I rarely "think".

Kinda cool when all the answers just show up.

That is what we call intuition. Our brain thinking without our conscious knowing. That little voice we sometimes hear inside us, that is the subconscious brain working for us.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

In my opinion nothing happens just because.

See:

Happen (verb) is an action, before anything comes into action an intention was presented. Intention is define as "an act or instance of determining mentally upon some action or result." (Definition is from Dictionary.com)

So if an intention was presented it means a thought came about, and for a thought to came about a thinker must exist.

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
a reply to: Abednego

Good Abe. I think this to be the second most important question of our existence. It comes right before the most important question. The answer to your question is maybe, maybe not. Once we know that we can then ask the most important question. If we do have free will then ok, fine. But if we do not have free will, how do we get it?

We can read about all the new studies and neuro findings that tell us that for the most part all of our actions and thoughts are routine, that they are just logical a leads to b leads to c to d to e responses. The key word there is most. Realizing that most of our consciousness is really just unconscious patterned response will allow us to focus on that small amount of what we consider ourselves to be and there we might find, or nurture what little freewill we have.
That make any sense?

The Buddhists had it right a thousand years ago.

Most of what "we" are is programmed.. there is just a little sliver of apparent free will
to work with..

and.. there is talk of there being a deterministic layer "above" quantum mechanics..
so even that sliver might be "pre-ordained".

But it's all we have to work with.. it gives our lives meanings..

Kev

I think for children perceiving the world through a somewhat autistic perspective this is true.
More emotional types can wallow in a forest of possibilities from which to choose.
Of course if someone kills their autistic parents to become feral children they might have to be raised by wolves.