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Bible translation stirs gender debate

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posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 12:13 PM
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I thoroughly agree that the Bible implies an inequality between men and women. And it lays that indication out from the very beginning.

Let's take the original sin.

There was only one person explicitly named in the scriptures that was directly given the commandment from God not to eat of the tree of knowledge, that person was Adam. Since there is no explicitly stated communication between God and Eve on this commandment, we are left to assume that the commandment was passed forward to her by Adam. The first instance of human communication of God's will or commandment.

In this instance we see the first example of two states of free morally agency. Adam represents a free moral agent who cannot practice faith associated in a belief in God, because he has communed with Him and therefore has first-hand evidence of His existence. The question as to whether God exists does not reside in Adam's being. The only matter of faith that Adam has open to him is whether he will have faith in the word of God (as we'll see later). The second matter of choice Adam has is to be obedient to a direct commandment from God.

Based on the assumption Eve's knowledge of God's commandment not to eat the fruit of the tree came from Adam, and not God, we now have the first example of a person who exercises their free moral agency in having faith of something they have not had first-hand experience with. The scripture doesn't even say that Eve communed with God, so we are left with a possibility that the very existence of God must be taken by faith on Eve's part and relying solely on Adam's word that He does exist, and has, in fact, commanded to stay away from the fruit.

Now we move to the serpent. The serpent's choice of which of the two people in the Garden of Eden he would mislead is curious...but hints at the inequality between the two. He selects Eve, who surprisingly resists his initial temptations quoting back a commandment she has apparently accepted as fact via her own faith that God has, in fact, issued the commandment. But the serpent is recorded to apply a great deal of logic in his argument that places doubt in Eve's mind as to whether what she has believed is correct. The serpent's efforts are rewarded via Eve's partaking of the fruit. Eve's fall is strickly that of falling from faith.

Curiously, the serpent does not have discourse with Adam about the fruit. Instead, Eve is the one that goes to Adam, and with not much resistance from him, convinces him to be disobedient to a commandment he has received directly from God. Adam's fall, which occurs due to his accepting Eve's argument over God's commandment, is not only a fall from faith (i.e. he doubts what God has told him), but also a direct act of disobedience.

I've thought long and hard on this story over the years and have wondered why the serpent chose to approach Eve instead of Adam. After all, Adam had taken a direct commandment from God, AND Adam was the conduit through which Eve had been given, indirectly, the commandment from God. It would seem an obvious choice to bring Adam into disobedience from God, and thereby ensure Eve's fall - since her knowledge of the commandment was from Adam.

So why did the serpent choose Eve instead? I think the answer is found in how easily Adam rolled over just from a brief effort by Eve on the deal. He literally accepted another creature of God's argument that the subordinate creature to God knew more than God Himself had told Adam. What an easy fall it was for Adam!

I am convinced that the serpent chose Eve as his target because he was convinced she would be the toughest con to pull off. If I'm going to convince a group of people of something, and that group is made up of members of varying intellect and levels of commitment that I must convince, I am not going to target the member of that group who has the lowest intellect, the lowest level of commitment, or who holds the least sway in the group. Because if I target that member, odds are I will convince that member, but then that member is ineffectual in assisting my efforts to convince the remaining members of higher intellect and stronger resolve. Instead, I will target the hardest target in the group. The target with the greatest intellect, the greatest resolve, and the most sway over the lesser members of the group, who I can then use their strengths to assist in my efforts to convince the more easily influenced members.

And that is why I believe Satan targetted Eve instead of Adam. I believe he knew Eve would be the most difficult to con, was of the greatest intellect - superior to that of Adam - and would be the most difficult for Adam to convince to break the rule she had been conveyed. On the other hand, Adam was a soup-sucking, knuckle-dragging, low-browed, booger-picking moron who rolled over on a dime - even in the face of a direct commandment from God.

In summary - the account of the original sin gives implied evidence that Eve was of greater intellect, stronger faith, and more resolve than Adam.




posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 12:22 PM
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P.S. And we continue to have to face the Devil himself and argue for you guys.

And it's quite a thankless job, I might add. A kudos here and there would go a long way to maintaining our strength as vanguards against continued attempts to roll you guys into yet another hell on earth.



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 12:25 PM
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Hi Flyer:


So Terral ... your bible says that men and women were not created equals so does that mean that you, Terral, will not treat them equally?


Please try to stick to the topic of the thread, apart from your seemingly overwhelming tendency to zero in on “Terral.” If you found anything faulty in my statements above, please “quote that >>” and offer your opposing views using Scripture. 2Tim. 2:15. GL.


Flyer >> Are men held in higher regard than women to God?


First of all, there is no such thing as a ‘male or female’ IN Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28. Therefore, my sisters in Christ Jesus have a different ‘state’ before God than unbelieving women. This means when I look to my right and to my left, while seated “IN” Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6), I seen no males and certainly no females. However, our current ‘standing’ on this earth is a mere fraction of our actual ‘state’ as “sons of God” (Rom. 8:14, 19, Gal. 3:26), who Paul addresses in many chapters of his Epistles. Man is the ‘image and glory of God,’ while woman is the ‘glory of man.’ 1Cor. 11:7. While women are said to be the ‘weaker vessel’ (1Pet. 3:7), connecting that to a subjective argument concerning a ‘higher regard’ for men over women would be very difficult to prove using Scripture.

God certainly has a higher regard for the capabilities of men to deliberate over the essentials of ‘sound doctrine’ (2Tim. 4:3), understood by His commands for women to remain silent in church and “subject themselves just as the law also says.” 1Cor. 14:34. Can we translate that into God having more regard for the precious life existence of men over women? No sir. These differences between men and women are given within the boundaries of specific ‘context’ to Scriptural truths, which your line of questioning is attempting to ignore.


If a man and a woman do the same job should they earn equal pay?


Your question is beyond the scope of Scripture and anything I presented above or in this post. That is between each individual employer and the people he or she employs. All the men and women bricklayers on my crew in Minnesota were members of the same union and received the same pay and same benefits, even though I could easily outperform the girls 2 to 1. Therefore, the employer and union appear to sit on your side of the fence in this debate.


If a man and a woman vote, do their votes each count as one, or is the mans' worth more? hmmmmmmmm????


Women have always had the right to vote by influencing their husbands, as the head of the household. Of course everyone’s vote = 1 vote, which accounts for good looking kind of presidents with no morals we get stuck with like Bill Clinton. Now they have the opportunity to vote his wife into office, which will reveal the ultimate sign of weakness to our enemies in the Middle East. Sending Condoleezza Rice to intercede between Israel and Arabs is perhaps the greatest insult any president could offer them. Did you catch the part about women are to keep silent in the assembly, “ . . . just as the Law ALSO says.'” 1Cor. 14:34? To the Arabs in the Middle East, this country looks like a bunch of infidels with no more sense than a dog barking at the moon. Electing a lady president just might be the straw that breaks the camel’s back for good. Look what they are doing to Bush’s troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, then multiply that by 1000 if they see a madam president. Heh . . . Do you think the Arab’s will value Ms. Clinton’s vote over that of George Bush? If you think that, then I have some swamp . . . I mean lakefront property to sell ya . . .

Please forgive if this bible thumper’s views are molded by the truths given us in God’s Living Word, rather than from the precepts of American History and Politics.

GL in the debates,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 01:01 PM
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Originally posted by Terral
Please try to stick to the topic of the thread,

My questons were very much on topic. You claim to follow the bible. You also claim that the bible says men are held in higher regard than women ... so my questons to you were very much valid. It takes that belief and asks exactly how you turn that belief into action here on planet earth.


which your line of questioning is attempting to ignore.

Wrong. It was a question. A simple question looking into whether or not part A fits into part B. Don't try to interject what you think my questions are .. you have no idea.


Man is the ‘image and glory of God,’ while woman is the ‘glory of man.’ .... God certainly has a higher regard for the capabilities of men to deliberate over the essentials of ‘sound doctrine’ ... Did you catch the part about women are to keep silent in the assembly,


Ahhhh ... so that answers my question. I now know exactly what you think of women and how you translate that thought to reality. Women should shut up; let men lead the way even though they may be idiots; men are the only ones with enough brains for God to talk to so women should be sheep to the whims of a man's interpretation; and women are just ornaments in a man's world whereas men are the apple of Gods eye.
Or is that a wrong interpretation of what you said?



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 05:23 PM
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Hi Flyer:

Do you always write while angry?


Flyer >> Women should shut up; let men lead the way even though they may be idiots; men are the only ones with enough brains for God to talk to so women should be sheep to the whims of a man's interpretation; and women are just ornaments in a man's world whereas men are the apple of Gods eye.


Heh . . . Do you kiss your mama with that mouth? For your information, I spent five years being instructed by the ministries of two women who were true soldiers for Christ whose shoes I have been trying to grow into most of my life. Katherine Smith wore leg braces and limped around with a cane, but she was a GIANT among men; and I learned more sitting at her feet than in any regular church. No matter what I say on any of these topics, you find some way to twist things into something else for the purposes of passing judgment like some self righteous ‘holier than thou’ busybody. God’s commands concerning men and women are all given within the boundaries of specific ‘context’ that must be applied properly for every situation. But hey, if you want to play the fool and carry on that way, then go-fer-it.

GL,

Terral



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 05:30 PM
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I think it makes more sense to have both men and women as preachers, pastors, etc. in the chruch as equals and allow marriage between both. It makes more sense and would decrease the likely-hood of inapporiate realationships in the churches with children.



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 05:31 PM
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So Mr. Terral I always say that women are the goddesses of earth until the male wanted the main role of the species and became God incarnated.

Now Mr. Terral

Are you looking into forming your own littler group that will follow your incredible interpretations of the bible teachings and God?

The way you have been preaching here in ATS it seems that you are Fishing for men that will follow your lead.

Are you a cultist? or trying to form one? Do you feel that God talks to you?

[edit on 29-9-2006 by marg6043]



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 05:48 PM
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In the creation story we see God creating man and woman and refferring to both as Adam. I believe Eve's subservant role was punishment because of her sin. When Christ returns then He will restore the balance once again. I for one dont care much for all these new and improved translations coming out lately, I'm more of a king james supporter since the new translations change certain scriptures and there meaning.



posted on Sep, 30 2006 @ 06:53 PM
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Originally posted by Terral
HiFiGuy:

HFG >> Show me this in the Bible: Is there anywhere in the Bible that says to build temples and churches to honor God?

Yes. Ezra 1:1-3. God's Sanctuary is prophesied to be "set . . . in their midst forever" in Ezekiel 37:26.

HFG >> Secondly, if it does, and all men are created equal, then women and men should be able to be pastors.

No sir. Your assertion here has no connection to God’s commands to build or rebuilt His Temple among men. Nobody ever said that men and women were created equal in the Bible. What does Scripture say?

“For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory OF GOD; but the woman is the glory of man.” 1Corinthians 11:7.

Women are forbidden to speak in the called out assembly:

“The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are NOT permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law ALSO says.” 1Corinthians 14:34.

Scripture also teaches that women are not to exercise authority over a man, saying,

“But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.” 1Timothy 2:12.

“Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain . . .”. 1Timothy 3:8.

“These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach.” 1Timothy 3:10.

“Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households.” 1Timothy 3:12.

God’s commands for the separation of duties between men and women are well outlined and defined. Can you find one verse saying that men are to keep silent in the churches? No.

Scripture does not teach equality for all.

No sir. Scripture declares women to be the ‘weaker’ vessel. 1Peter 3:7. Try cracking open your Bible to prove ‘any’ of your bogus ‘equality’ doctrines . . .

HFG >> Love between man and woman is the magic that allows man and woman. Love is the key. Bias is the lock.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral


See, this is why I don't see how God can make smarter, but make them weaker. Given men do have more brain cells, that doesn't mean their better. I've met some normal guys, they think their better. Because they are NOT better, no matter who they are. God may be close, but not close enough to see women don't deserve the treatment he gave them.

Who cares what any guy on earth or in the universe even says. It's been their excuse for too long of a time. Society has told men they are better, but since society has changed in the western world. I fail to see it. I don't think most men I meet are better. Individually, but otherwise, I don't see why an "Old money" belief system should be forced to become my own. When it has done nothing, but hurt society and is in of itself a way censorship and hiding behind a book.

[edit on 9/30/2006 by brokenwindows]



posted on Sep, 30 2006 @ 07:03 PM
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I just believe what works for me. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. So I can agree with you guys. Sorry. I'm not trying to be mean.

Also, I think God is stupid for forcing women to be feel like they should be quiet in open assemblies in all major religions worldwide(Hinduism, Islam, Christianity,parts of asian buddism culture). Maybe then we wouldn't have these people in the middle east fighting like this, this hard all the time.

God contridicts himself when he makes women who wish to speak, but tells to be quiet, so why did he create them? If all he wants to do is have his own creatation destroy itself or make women turn against men, because men won't prove to women that their "just as deserving" to have power to preach, get power, maintain it, protect people, have their opinion be appreciated no matter the class or position in society, but guys get it and all they want to prove is their just as good to their fathers, and their family, and hurt everyone. So why would God make someone like me who contridicts what he says, but believes in the values he subscribes to those religions?

Sorry, Terral and all other Christians here. But this one of the reasons, I left the chruches and Religion for good. I believe in God, but not in that way. I believe in God differently.



posted on Oct, 28 2006 @ 03:44 PM
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I find that Christ is quoted as identifying error even in the the speech of the prophets.
God does not err, to err is man.



" AND the Lord said, If thy brother hath sinned in word seven times a day, and seven times a day hath made amendment, receive him. Simon said to him, Seven times a day ?
8. The Lord answered and said to him, I tell thee also unto seventy times seven, for even in the Prophets, after they were anointed by the Spirits utterance of sin was found "

Forgive the man who incorrectly speaks when it comes to scripture. For even error was found in the prophets.

When considering equality, think of this.

A room full of 100 newborn babies:
Show me one that is more loved then another.
Show me one that is smarter then the next.
These babies are newborns. They are a joy to the world, and without judgement.

It is age, and the development of each that makes people seem more or less in the eyes of other man, yet babies, when born, are equal to all mankind.

Show me a man who is strong, Ill show you a woman who is stronger. Show me a woman who is strong, Ill show you a man who is stronger.
Show me a man who is smart, Ill show you a woman who is smarter. Show me a woman who is smart, Ill show you a man who is smarter.
Short of an act of God, Neither woman or man, can created a child without each other. Equal is equal.
All the flowers in the field are beautiful, yet each are different. Without the bee, they are not at all. Without the flower, the bee will perish. The lesson of extinction.

Mankind is so concerned about what his opinion is, that the truth evades him yet its right in front of his face.

Look and you shall see, seek and you shall find, knock and it will be open to you.

knock knock.

Hello, can I help you?

Peace

[edit on 28-10-2006 by HIFIGUY]

[edit on 28-10-2006 by HIFIGUY]

[edit on 28-10-2006 by HIFIGUY]

[edit on 28-10-2006 by HIFIGUY]

[edit on 28-10-2006 by HIFIGUY]



posted on Oct, 30 2006 @ 10:07 AM
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Valhall:


Valhall >> I thoroughly agree that the Bible implies an inequality between men and women. And it lays that indication out from the very beginning. Let's take the original sin.


The Bible what??? How should Christians interpret the truth of these verses?


“For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the IMAGE AND GLORY OF GOD; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was NOT created for the woman's sake, but WOMAN FOR MAN’S SAKE. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.” 1Corinthians 11:7-10.


What shall we do with Valhall’s intimation that “the Bible implies an inequality between men and women.”??? Is Scripture making any ‘implications’ above, or does God’s Word ‘teach’ the VAST differences between God creating “woman for MAN’S SAKE” and NOT visa versa? What does it mean that man is the ‘image and glory OF GOD; but the woman is the glory of man.’?? How do we screw that round peg into a square hole to teach the doctrine that “men and women are equal?” Anyone? How about these verses?


“The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law ALSO says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. Was it from you that the WORD OF GOD first went forth? Or has it COME TO YOU only?” 1Corinthians 14:34-36.


Please forgive, but these are only a few verses taken from Paul’s First Epistle to the Corinthians and only ‘one’ of the ‘sixty six’ books of Scripture! Where do we find the ‘equality’ balance saying that ‘men are to keep silent in the churches!’??? Hey, if I am wrong and Valhall is right, then point your fingers at me and begin the “Terral Bashing” on this thread also. Is that the case? No. Does the fact that the “Word of God” was sent forth “to” women only an important aspect of Scripture? The Word of God certainly appears to be making that ‘implication’ right here . . . What else does Scripture say?


A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children IF they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.” 1Timothy 2:11-15.


Does the fact that Eve was deceived by the serpent an important aspect for women to ‘receive instruction with entire submissiveness.’?? Should we expect our resident scholar to dissect the Greek language to explain the precise meanings of all these terms, so we might gather an accurate grasp of what God’s Living Word is teaching? Is this her authority for standing up within the body of believers here to shout “Terral Is The Antichrist” at the top of her lungs? What part of continuing in ‘faith and love and sanctity with SELF-RESTRAINT’ does that cover? What exactly is she trying to ‘teach a man’ by using these underhanded debating tactics?


Valhall >> There was only one person explicitly named in the scriptures that was directly given the commandment from God not to eat of the tree of knowledge, that person was Adam. Since there is no explicitly stated communication between God and Eve on this commandment, we are left to assume that the commandment was passed forward to her by Adam. The first instance of human communication of God's will or commandment.


LOL! Please open gapping gash under nose and insert foot still in boot. What does Scripture say?


“Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?" The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden WE MAY EAT; but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'YOU SHALL NOT EAT from it OR TOUCH IT, or you WILL DIE.'" Genesis 3:1-3.


Are we to believe Paul and Eve, OR purchase a boatload of this nonsense coming from Valhall who is in ‘complete denial’ of the truth Scripture teaches on this ‘man and woman’ topic? How does Peter say men are to deal with their women?


“You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since SHE IS A WOMAN; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.” 1Peter 3:7.


The fact that “SHE IS A WOMAN” is reason enough to deal with them as ‘someone weaker.’ This teaching coincides with Paul’s above that man is the ‘image and glory OF GOD’ and woman is the ‘glory of MAN.’ 1Cor. 11:7. Everything Valhall and her girlfriends have to say on this topic is totally and utterly USELESS. They point fingers at me and use their name calling tactics, because they have insufficient stature “IN” Christ Jesus to do much of anything else. The “Preacher” of Ecclesiastes waits until the seventh chapter to say one word about ‘woman’ to say:


“What has been is remote and exceedingly mysterious. Who can discover it? I directed my mind to know, to investigate and to seek wisdom and an explanation, and to know the evil of folly and the foolishness of madness. And I discovered more bitter than death the woman whose heart is snares and nets, whose hands are chains. One who is pleasing to God will escape from her, but the sinner will be captured by her. Behold, I have discovered this," says the Preacher, "adding one thing to another to find an explanation, which I am still seeking but have not found. I have found ONE MAN among a thousand, but I have NOT found a woman among all these.” Eccl. 7:24-28.


How many reasons does Scripture need for explaining itself that the womenfolk are to remain silent in the called out assembly? I can give you a thousand reasons 'why,' but why should you listen to me if willing to ignore God and His Word?

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral


[edit on 30-10-2006 by Terral]



posted on Oct, 30 2006 @ 11:30 AM
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Originally posted by Terral
How many reasons does Scripture need for explaining itself that the womenfolk are to remain silent in the called out assembly?


oh Lord above ..

Terral. MEN wrote the scriptures. MEN. And the CUSTOMS and TRADITIONS of the day were anti-woman. Those customs and traditions naturally showed themselves in the writings of the MEN. It's just that simple.

Gods commandment = beautitudes.
Mans customs and traditions = women should shut up because men are smarter.

For every 'Eve fell to the wiles of the devil' that you come up with; we can come up with 'Elizabeth kept her faith and her voice but her husband, the father of John the Baptiser, was struck without speech because he failed in his faith.







[edit on 10/30/2006 by FlyersFan]



posted on Oct, 30 2006 @ 12:05 PM
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Hi Flyer:


Terral Original >> How many reasons does Scripture need for explaining itself that the womenfolk are to remain silent in the called out assembly?

Flyer Is A Girl >> oh Lord above .. Terral. MEN wrote the scriptures. MEN. And the CUSTOMS and TRADITIONS of the day were anti-woman. Those customs and traditions naturally showed themselves in the writings of the MEN. It's just that simple.


In other words, the sixty six books of Scripture = man’s word and NOT God’s Word. How interesting . . . What does God’s Word say about God’s Word?


“For the Word Of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” Hebrews 4:12.


Please explain for the benefit of everyone here how you distinguish the “Word of God” from the words of mere men? Please tell us if these are the Lord’s Commands or Paul’s words?


"If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment. But if ANYONE does not recognize this, he is not recognized." 1Corinthians 14:37+38.


Is the truth of these verses fallible, because Paul says “the things which I WRITE TO YOU are the LORD’S COMMANDMENT.”??? Are we free to do exactly the opposite of ‘Paul’s’ words, OR are we bound to obey because those are the “Lord’s Commandment?” What does God’s Word say about God’s Word?


“All Scripture is INSPIRED BY GOD and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.” 2Timothy 3:16-17.


The fact is that either “ALL SCRIPTURE is INSPIRED BY GOD” or every word is reduced to being the dribble of men. Flyer left the bulk of my maxed out post (posted on 30-10-2006 at 10:07 AM (post id: 2583703) unanswered. Why?


Flyer >> Gods commandment = beautitudes. Mans customs and traditions = women should shut up because men are smarter.


LOL . . . Are you trying to say “beatitudes?” Your oversimplified half-baked dribble is found nowhere in God’s Living Word. Nobody on this side of the debate believes any of the womenfolk here should be quiet. On the contrary. Talk it up! Do exactly the opposite of what the “Lord’s Commandment” says through Scripture and particularly the Apostle Paul, or that would spoil all the fun at the Judgment. These current deliberations are mere child’s play to the intense scrutiny over the underlying intentions of every word we will witness in that day. Then we will see who has earned the right to have ‘antichrist’ branded into their foreheads.


Flyer >> For every 'Eve fell to the wiles of the devil' that you come up with; we can come up with 'Elizabeth kept her faith and her voice but her husband, the father of John the Baptiser, was struck without speech because he failed in his faith.


Really? What has any of that to do with obeying the “Lord’s Commandment” given us in every word of the Pauline Epistles? Everything presented in my post above remains standing, until one of you decides to “quote that >>” and prove otherwise using Scripture. 2Tim. 2:15. Good luck picking and choosing which parts are God inspired and which are to be dismissed and ignored completely. After all, every girl knows man is truly the weaker vessel (1Pet. 3:7). Right? Your post is just more evidence that ATS members can come out here and make posts without a single leg to stand on and pretend they are right all along. The fact that ten of you jump up and down saying the same thing adds and subtracts NOTHING from that simple truth. Your girlfriends appear much more wise by remaining silent (Proverbs 17:28) than you.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral



posted on Oct, 30 2006 @ 12:14 PM
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Actually, if you get right down to it, this whole "men should rule over women" thing was predicted by God as a curse that we would have to deal with. Now note - God didn't sanction it, He just predicted it. He told us upfront:

1. It's gonna hurt like hell to have babies from now on,
2. You'll actually think that lump of skin you're married to is attractive, and
3. By the way - the idiot will try to rule over you from now on.

He probably even delivered the above bad news with a *sigh*.

This prediction from God was like the one Adam got about having to actually get off his lazy ass and work for a living:

1. Gonna have to work that land now! no free meal anymore!,
2. You'll have to deal with thorns and thistles now,
3. Gonna be a cud-chewer now,
4. Oh - and Adam, death is on your shoulders (not Eve's but the moron Adam).

K- so let's look at the prediction God gave Adam about the thorns and thistles...yeah, if the earth is left to itself it will produce thorns and thistles and you'll have a heck of a time trying finding something to eat. If you work the ground and keep the place weeded, you can keep those useless thorns and thistles out of your cropland, and feed yourself. God was just pointing out to Adam what he's gonna have to deal with from now on...

very much like He was pointing out to Eve what she's going to have to deal with from now... some nidget thinking he can rule over her. Of course, with a good shovel and six uninterrupted feet of earth, we women can deal with that the same as you guys handle up on those thistles.

Noooooo problem.

[edit on 10-30-2006 by Valhall]



posted on Oct, 30 2006 @ 01:52 PM
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Hi Valhall:

I knew you could not resist and also knew you would ‘quote >>’ nothing above from my post to you (posted on 30-10-2006 at 10:07 AM (post id: 2583703) in my “Man And Woman Are NOT Created Equal” Post. I could simply ignore everything you say and start on a blank page, but that would make me just like you . . .


Valhall >> Actually, if you get right down to it, this whole "men should rule over women" thing was predicted by God as a curse that we would have to deal with. Now note - God didn't sanction it, He just predicted it. He told us upfront: 1. It's gonna hurt like hell to have babies from now on, 2. You'll actually think that lump of skin you're married to is attractive, and 3. By the way - the idiot will try to rule over you from now on.


LOL! You characterize God about as accurately as you do me! Here is my problem in a nutshell: I quote your every word and use Scripture (2Tim. 2:15) to show the folly of your statements. You simply ignore everything and begin rambling about something else using NO SCRIPTURE at all. Your statements above the curses are moot, but do you understand why? Paul just told you in the verses I quoted above, but you will ignore me too. Eve was taken from the side of man to be his “helper” (Gen. 2:18+20) BEFORE THE FALL and BEFORE the same woman gave the forbidden fruit to her husband (Gen. 3:6). The curses that follow do indeed alter the terms of the master / helper relationship:


“To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you." Then to Adam He said, "Because you have LISTENED TO THE VOICE OF YOUR WIFE, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.” Genesis 3:16+17.


Adam’s transgression was that he listened to the voice of his wife, which is just another reason the New Testament commands “The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.” 1Corinthians 14:34.

Those who listen and are destroyed (2Pet. 3:14-16) have NO EXCUSE, because God has presented all the appropriate warnings in His Living Word.


Valhall >> He probably even delivered the above bad news with a *sigh*. This prediction from God was like the one Adam got about having to actually get off his lazy ass and work for a living: 1. Gonna have to work that land now! no free meal anymore!, 2. You'll have to deal with thorns and thistles now, 3. Gonna be a cud-chewer now, 4. Oh - and Adam, death is on your shoulders (not Eve's but the moron Adam).


These sayings are almost as despicable as those of your Flying friend above. The ‘delusional’ (2Thes. 2:11) aspect working overtime is that both of you feel your ‘opinions’ are superior to what God has to say on this topic. What is happening to those distorting the ‘wisdom given him’ (Paul)? Oh, the “untaught and unstable” are distorting those things “to their own destruction.” 2Peter 3:14-16. So, let’s keep up the good work of distorting everything Paul teaches on ‘the mystery’ (Eph. 3:3) topic, which includes our gospel ( www.belowtopsecret.com... ) our mystery church ( Churches ) and even the Rapture ( www.belowtopsecret.com... ).


Valhall >> K- so let's look at the prediction God gave Adam about the thorns and thistles...yeah, if the earth is left to itself it will produce thorns and thistles and you'll have a heck of a time trying finding something to eat.


LOL! You really have no reply to what has been presented you in my post above? Thorns and thistles indeed . . . Here is a few verses for you to help us understand:


“The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law ALSO says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. Was it from you that the WORD OF GOD first went forth? Or has it COME TO YOU only?” 1Corinthians 14:34-36.

A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children IF they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.” 1Timothy 2:11-15.



Valhall >> If you work the ground and keep the place weeded . . .


Please stop embarrassing yourself . . . Holy . . . There is no sense in providing argument after argument on where Scripture teaches that man is the image and glory OF GOD and woman is the image of man. 1Cor. 11:7. You will just ignore everything and ramble on about thistles and keeping things weeded. Heh . . . What a joke . . .

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral



posted on Oct, 30 2006 @ 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by Terral
In other words, the sixty six books of Scripture = man’s word and NOT God’s Word.

Terral, Terral, Terral. Scripture was written by men who were INSPIRED by God. They weren't perfect writing instruments. The bible wasn't 'spot zapped' by God .. it went THROUGH men. Men with their own short comings and their own customs and their own way of doing things and their own NOTIONs about how things of God should be. Scripture reeks of it.


What does God’s Word say about God’s Word?

Who cares what the bible says about the bible? That's like trying to prove the Quran is right by quoting that the Quran says it is. It doesn't work that way.


Please explain for the benefit of everyone here how you distinguish the “Word of God” from the words of mere men?

Remove customs and obvious short comings in the writings (Onanism) and get to the heart of JESUS' message. HE said to live the commandments, including the two greater commandments. HE said to live the beatitudes. It IS very simple. It is NOT complicated.


The fact is that either “ALL SCRIPTURE is INSPIRED BY GOD” or every word is reduced to being the dribble of men.

Nope. That statement isn't 'fact' at all.


Flyer left the bulk of my maxed out post ... unanswered. Why?

Too much 'bizzarro' to even try to suffer through and too much error to even try to correct. (even if you were listening, but you aren't, so I won't bother)


Are you trying to say “beatitudes?”

Yes of course, that's obvious. BTW ... it is not very christian of you to tease a person because of a typo. And I have already said that I can't spell well.


Your oversimplified half-baked dribble is found nowhere in God’s Living Word.

The beatitudes aren't found in scripture?
Christ didn't leave a complex series of charts and graphs and interconnecting voodoo to His Apostles and Disciples. He made it very simple - Follow the commandments; follow his two greater commandments; live the beatitudes. The FACT is that the SIMPLE message of Christ definately is found in scripture. YOUR overblown charts and graphs and voodoo are not there. Christ lived simply. His message was simple and definately not a complex one. He wasn't dealing with Rhodes scholars. He was dealing with simple people and His message was simple. THAT is what is in scripture.


Everything presented in my post above remains standing,

only in your dreams.


Your girlfriends appear much more wise by remaining silent (Proverbs 17:28) than you.

They just can't be bothered with someone like you. You aren't worth their time. Actually, you aren't worth my time either ... so perhaps I should revisit why I even bother. (entertainment perhaps???
)

So Terral .. does it bug you that the mother of John the Baptiser clearly had greater faith than her husband and that God took away HIS voice and made him the silent one whereas she kept hers? Bet it eats you up.



In Christ Jesus,

I don't know why you continually post this. Your self righteous snobbery clearly shows that you are NOT 'in Christ Jesus'. You are fooling yourself if you believe that you are. Why don't you just sign off with 'In Christ Paul'?



[edit on 10/30/2006 by FlyersFan]



posted on Oct, 30 2006 @ 04:02 PM
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Flyer:


Flyer >> Who cares what the bible says about the bible? That's like trying to prove the Quran is right by quoting that the Quran says it is. It doesn't work that way.


Obviously you do not care or understand that the sixty six books of God Breathed Scripture are Living AND Active (Heb. 4:12). Has your Bible yet to come alive? No. The Qur'an is a work of men that shall never come alive for anyone. The fact that you can even draw this kind of comparison reveals your Bible to be very much DEAD. That explains why you cannot see many of the common things in Scripture like our mystery (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) and NEVER WILL.

Please forgive if everything you say is taken with a half grain of salt . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral



posted on Oct, 30 2006 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Terral, Terral, Terral. Scripture was written by men who were INSPIRED by God. They weren't perfect writing instruments. The bible wasn't 'spot zapped' by God .. it went THROUGH men. Men with their own short comings and their own customs and their own way of doing things and their own NOTIONs about how things of God should be. Scripture reeks of it.


Perfectly worded...especially when referencing Paul's writings. Paul showed egotism, sexism, bull-headedness and some other thorn in his flesh he cared not much to reveal but many have speculated on (probably an unhealthy hatred to women considering he spent an inappropriate amount of time advising people to not get married).

I do believe Paul was divinely inspired and that his intentions were to share Christ's gospel, but he also made a lot of "recommendations" or "suggestions" that were clearly based on his own personal biases, preferences and weaknesses. All in all, he was as adamant as any of us have been that his words should not replace (or even equal) those of Christ's.

But, you know, FF, if we are to take Paul's words "as the gospel" and suggest they should all be mandates that we must live by, we have to decide to apply all of them - every single one of them, not just the ones that suit our fancy.

For instance, we'd also have to apply these:


8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.


- Romans 13:8

Well, I just wonder how many of those who are trying to selectively use Paul's writings to oppress women's rights to speak our beliefs are debt free? How many have, say, judgments against them for debts unpaid? I imagine we'd be surprised.



posted on Oct, 30 2006 @ 04:41 PM
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I found this quotation of Christ regarding error in scripture.

"The Lord answered and said to him, I tell thee also unto seventy times seven, for even in the Prophets, after they were anointed by the Spirits utterance of sin was found."

All jesus asked, if you got any of his word or believed him at all was this....

" Love One Another "

We can worry about the validity of scripture, and we can debate error, but in the big picture of things...it really boils down to mankind and how we were supposed to be. How we are supposed to work in the big picture of true love of all.

He is quoted here as to identifying the real problem with mankind....

But this is not a carnal war; it is not man at war with man; but it is right against the wrong. 22 And love is captain, love is warrior, love is armour, love is all, and love shall win.

If you dont believe in God or Christ or anything for that matter, sit back and ponder this. If the world started out with you and someone you loved with all your heart. And that love was given to each and every child born, and each child acted with the fullest love towards everyone , and there was love and unity, what would the world be like....

Would you have war?
Would you have guns?
Would you have countrys?
Would you have money?

Loving everyone means loving all. This was the root message of Christ. If you start out with pure love for God, and all men, the world fixes itself.

Peace



[edit on 30-10-2006 by HIFIGUY]



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