Bible translation stirs gender debate

once again you get the "this really means, or this includes"
when they want it to say that. But let there come up a topic that they dont want it to say and they say "its not
specifically said that it happened so it didnt happen.

BY ROBIN GALIANO RUSSELL

The Dallas Morning News

(KRT) - The release of a new Bible translation this month pushes to the forefront a hair-splitting debate among evangelical Christians. Depending on whom you ask, the Today's New International Version Bible is either a way to connect with a new generation or a paean to the feminist agenda.

It's an update of the New International Version, the best-selling Bible of all time. The NIV, published by Zondervan in 1978, has surpassed the King James Version in popularity. One in three Bibles bought is an NIV.

For evangelicals, it's the pew Bible of choice. And many don't want it changed.

Yet Zondervan insisted it was time for an update. The English language has undergone warp-speed changes in the last 30 years, they say, and the TNIV reflects a more "gender accurate" language than its predecessor. It took 45,000 changes to the text to do that.
---

© 2005, The Dallas Morning News.

www.beliefnet.com...






[edit on 10-9-2006 by asala]

Is there anywhere in the Bible that says to build temples and churches to honor God?

Secondly, if it does, and all men are created equal, then women and men should be able to be pastors.

But no where in the Bible does it say to build temples to Glorify God. The arguement of Pastor and teacher is in your own heart.

Didnt the tower of Babyl piss God off? I think we should have learned something then.

If you beleive in Love and equality for all, the churches would see that they live a paradox bv themselves. The evangelical twist doesnt suit Gods interest, it suits mans interest of self elevation. This is my translation. Woman and man are equal. It is not up to a translation, it is not up for debate. Equal is equal. Without woman there is no man. Without man there is no woman. Get over it. Prove me wrong.

Love between man and woman is the magic that allows man and woman.

Love is the key. Bias is the lock.

Peace.

[edit on 16-2-2005 by HIFIGUY]

What is interesting about this and the reason for the uproar is that the change will actually highlight the very misogynistic passages making it difficult to balance something like:

At the head of every woman is a man

with

So God created man and woman in his own image,...and said unto them, be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over...

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Is there anywhere in the Bible that says to build temples and churches to honor God?

2 Samuel 7:5 - Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?

2 Samuel 7:7 - In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?

2 Samuel 7:13 - He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

2 Samuel 7:27 - For thou, O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, hast revealed to thy servant, saying, I will build thee an house: therefore hath thy servant found in his heart to pray this prayer unto thee.

1 Kings 5:5 - And, behold, I purpose to build an house unto the name of the LORD my God, as the LORD spake unto David my father, saying, Thy son, whom I will set upon thy throne in thy room, he shall build an house unto my name.

1 Kings 6:11 - And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying, 12 Concerning this house which thou art in building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father: 13 And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel. 14 So Solomon built the house, and finished it.

1 Chronicles 28:6 - And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.

1 Chronicles 28:10 - Take heed now; for the LORD hath chosen thee to build an house for the sanctuary: be strong, and do it.

2 Chronicles 36:23 - Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? The LORD his God be with him, and let him go up.

Ezra 1:2 - Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.

These are just the scriptures that indicate either God telling someone to build a temple/house, or someone telling what God told them to do. There are MANY more that just deal with the actof building the temple and the specific instructions from God on how to build the temple. I'll try and find more (these really only cover the first half of the Old Testament), but I have to get back to work for now....

In the context that the the Bible of old testament versus new, Gods actions and mans interpretion are different.

Old testament. God is angry
New Testament. God is Loving.
Correction: God doesnt live a Paradox. God doesnt kill Gods children. Man attribtuted catastrophy to God. I dont think so. S&G=Fault Line
Locusts are repetitious in history. Floods are floods. Tsunamis are Tsunmais.

Now, about these Servants. We are not servants of God, just as we are not servants of our father and Mother. Think theres a tgranslation issue?
In the beginning, God createed man to be servants, because he couldnt create so he needed man to. See the logic? There isnt any.

And about the houses. Old testament houses. Like Moses in the book of numbers. Set his family up for life with tithes. These houses are the first indication of man creating structures to collect money in the name of God.
Does he say anything about prayer books and rituals?

Jesus was a simple man. Wrought from the Jewish faith. Throwing over coin tables. Getting his but in trouble and crucified. God has learned that mans institutions, as they are now, will repeat the same thing.

Theyll think the new message is that of the antichrist or whatever concocted concept that man has come up with and then some self righteous bible thumper who thinks hes doing the world a favor will execute them. Round two. Messenger killed. Did we not learn anything?

Listen with your hearts and not with your eyes. For I can assure you that this round of Gods plan has precautions in place and those that seek to end it shall never begin the Journey. Their endeveor is lost before it was ever undertaken. There is no hell. But the lord may deem that you can go and seek comfort with your bible. And as you sit, waitng to enter the gates of heaven, page by page, you will destroy your worldy volumes as it becomes apparent that scripture is not the path, but actions towards your fellow man. No Bible will offer witness to the gates of heaven as clarity of thought, truth, and love for all are the true keys to eternity.

And you can believe that Im not sure where all that just came from. But welcome to my world. God has a plan.

Peace

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
In the context that the the Bible of old testament versus new, Gods actions and mans interpretion are different.

No argument there! You had just asked "Is there anywhere in the Bible that says to build temples and churches to honor God?"...Those are some scriptures that pertain to buidling of temples and houses of the Lord.

Now, if you follow the word of God, Christ came to take the place of the need to go to the temple and offer up sacrifices to God. So, in essence, the "church" litterally became anywhere "two or more are gathered together in Jesus name". That can be a school, a tent, a hillside, whatever...the need to erect massive structures to house those who wanted to gather and worship God is all in the mind of man.

Another new and improved plus politically correct bible to appease the sensitivity of the some targeted masses out there.

I think I am going to get some visions and have my own bible for women only.

Because in my visions God is going told me that It's was a women.

I dont read the bible, but came from A Catholic upbringing. I havent been to church in twenty years and Much of what is happening to me happened during the last 4 months in my divorce.

One thing that was said to me was the form of woman. God was alone. God made woman first, perfect no less. The female form is by far the most beautiful of anything on earth, and subsequently, by mans greed, the most coveted.

God then created man. Hence Adam. Add a man. Adam and eve was a marriage made in heaven. There were no words, only expression.

The result of the passion and love between the two would be timeless as their physical forms would never age. They would live at the age of perfection and " pardon the pun " be the apple of each others eye.

Love was corrupted by one trying to elevate themselves above the other.
Oppression. Arrogance. Deceipt. Mistrust. All of the characteristics that woul lead one away from the one they love.

This was the beginning of the clock. Age. Death, and an end to the days of Eden. For once this began, man only had to realize that she and he was not better then the other in Gods eye, and the process would end.
This is the same now.

This is close to the intent to what happened, but without angering a bunch of people, I wrote it to resemble. Eve was first.
The womans demeanor is kinder, more loving, and more sensitive. It is in the woman, that man can achieve peace.



[edit on 16-2-2005 by HIFIGUY]

I tell you what I am not a bible religious believer I like the bible for his historical value.

But that post is very beautiful thanks.

Very good posts, HIFI, and what especially caught my eye was a closing statement.

If I had a vote left, you would be the beneficiary.

You have voted HIFIGUY for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

You know, I am about the farthest thing from religious(altho I am not an atheist) you will ever find. Because all I have ever seen and heard from *christians and pretty much any religion* is contradictory, hypocritical bullpucky, but HIFI I have to say what you said touched me deeply.

I've been lurking here and have read most of the posts lately about the bible, intolerance, why do you belive etc and they just make me so mad because instead of rational discussion the Christians come on and spew thier venom all over, again and again like always.

Whatever God is, be he some omnipotent being who made everything or little green men or Mother Earth herself I have never felt it as being a hateful thing. Altho I myself can't say the same heh, guess I have a ways to go. It could be Sad maybe that what we have been given, the chance to have a peacful, loving, tolerant, wondeful world and have turned it into the cesspit it is, in large part by the religions of the world just makes me never want to go out again.

I have gotten to the point I barely ever go out in public anymore cause of the way people behave just makes me sick, literally. I feel like I'm being sucked dry by these *pychic vampires* who want nothing more than to have power over all of us for thier own gain and it has nothing to do with Love or Tolerance for everyone and everything.

Thank you for making those posts I've never seen my own feelings expressed in the written word in a more eloquent fashion than you did, I know I could not have done it.

Lil

I find it all funny, the need for worship.
All the ritual and pomp. The idea that my eternal fate hinges upon a translation of an idea espoused by men filtered many times by more men, preached to me by another man, is something I cannot accept.

Is God so vain that a life of worship to the almighty is a better way to reach heaven than leading a good life in general?

I belive that 'god' is all, everything, energy, matter, the eternal. I deal with spirituality on a personal level, if I need answers I look within, they are there.

I do understand and encourage discussion among people, and the need to provide an emotional support system within a community. I just think that worship breeds exclusion and pregidis.

HIFIGUY

This strikes me as being the "double plus good" version of the Bible. Education would allow this 18 to 34 demographic to understand proper English in which a general statement about any one of a group of people would be stated as "he".

If they want to start relating better to the younger demographic, try the "Buddy Christ."

(On a side note, I find it ironic that I, not being a Christian, understood far more of the obscure Christian references in the film Dogma, than most every Christian I've ever watched it with.)

I may not be Christian, but I've studied the bible because of a fascination with world religion. I seem, generally speaking - and probably not true with those in here, to understand the Bible better than most Christians, which I find wholly ironic, and even a little sad.

Hello, my name is wellwhatnow, and I am a recovering Jehovah's Witness.

One of the thousands of reasons why I quit practicing any form of Christianity is that it taught me that as a woman, I am simply not very important and my relationship with my creator is not as meaningful as a man's relationship with his creator.

To make things even more complicated, I don't fit into any of the pre made gender forms normally accepted in my culture.

I find this gender debate absolutely fascinating!

I am somewhat bilingual and I do know that a translator must not make a word for word literal statement, it would make no sense much of the time.
On the other hand, this is a book which millions of people will base their entire lives upon so it must be as accurate as possible.

I think that is the real problem. Some people will take a single word or phrase and base a large portion of their religious foundation upon it, rather than taking a general meaning of the text.

At any rate, I am guessing that some Christians will certainly see this as a conspiracy to undermine the church, especially JW's who have VERY specific gender roles and do use the NIV last I heard.

WellwhatNow.....

There would not be a Christian Church if not for Women in the early church. Mary Magedelene financially supported the work of the apostles, she seemed to have been a far more powerfull influence than the writers of the Bible give her credit in amtters of spirituality as well.
The several hundred years after Jesus it was Women that put the words of God into practice; feeding, caring, clothing and teaching what they knew to be the true Path.
It was about 350 AD that the Patriarchal system of Christianity was created by the Roman Emperor along with the bishops, and religious leaders. It was at this point that the Church became a Political entity, and left the spiritual Path.
Women continued their work alongside the organized church, until the early middle ages. The guilds, and organizations that women created and maintained became too much for the church, royalty, and for profit Universities. Women, Men and children that did not toe the political and religious line were killed, tortured and their properties stolen by the church.

What we have today, is the remnants of what happened for political and financial reasons for the last few thousand years. It wont be much longer, and the present church will fall away as well. The church needs to be undermined. They have strayed from what was left to us by God.

I can agree with you toolmaker, but that doesn't change the fact the there are still churches in the US where women aren't allowed to speak out loud and are not allowed to pray if there is a man present. Those churches are probably few and far between, but they are certainly out there.
They probably will not adopt the new translation and will just stick to their old ways, so the new Bible will probably change nothing.

It will be interesting though to watch and see what happens.

It is unfortunate that the churches preach equality and then practive discrimination. A womans relationship with God is no more and no less then mans.

The ability to share teachings in the church is no different then sharing and teaching in the family. Should one parent be obligated to teaching all lessons based on their sex? This lesson alone should be proof positive that this arguement is mute.

The policy that the churches have adopted is based on a manmade judgement and not the creators intent. And while Im on the topic.....how many of the books of the Bible were inspired women? Or better yet, were they even aknowledged? Somehow I think not many to zero. And I dont think it was Gods doing. It was mans arrogance over women. And this my Sisters and brothers is why we should not elevate ourselves over others as the Bible itself is a Paradox in many areas becasue of mans filtration and manipulation. It is indeed a book of lessons, in many dynamic and suprising ways.
A puzzle for children of faith, Fischer Price for the those that are pure of heart and understand the Lords orignal intent.


Peace





[edit on 20-2-2005 by HIFIGUY]

[edit on 20-2-2005 by HIFIGUY]

I thought I would do a follow up on something I found. The truth is the truth and the sheep will know their shepard by his voice. In this case, I think that the concept of Temple in the name of God and commerce has been mingled and abused, while in truth, a temple in the name of creating Holy Men of God needs to be Adopted. I found some writings of the lost years of Jesus where he speaks on this issue.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Is there anywhere in the Bible that says to build temples and churches to honor God?

2 Samuel 7:5 - Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?

2 Samuel 7:7 - In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?

2 Samuel 7:13 - He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

2 Samuel 7:27 - For thou, O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, hast revealed to thy servant, saying, I will build thee an house: therefore hath thy servant found in his heart to pray this prayer unto thee.

1 Kings 5:5 - And, behold, I purpose to build an house unto the name of the LORD my God, as the LORD spake unto David my father, saying, Thy son, whom I will set upon thy throne in thy room, he shall build an house unto my name.

Perhaps this is a misinterpretation of Temple for builing a house unto the name of God means building a man of God. Read the scriptures with that thought in place and see if they dont come to life. The following is a read from the lost Years of Jesus.

Jesus is called St Issa in these writings and I think that after you read them a bit, you will see that it is indeed him. For he says the following:

" 11 And Issa made answer to them that God had not in view temples erected by the hands of man, but he meant that the human heart was the true temple of God.

12 "Enter into your temple, into your heart. Illumine it with good thoughts and the patience and immovable confidence which you should have in your Father.

13 "And your sacred vessels, they are your hands and your eyes. See and do that which is agreeable to God, for in doing good to your neighbor you accomplish a rite which embellishes the temple wherein dwells he who gave you life. "

Here is a link to the writings.
reluctant-messenger.com...

Look and you shall see, Seek and you shall find. The sheep will know their shepard by his voice, and his voice speaks volumes, regardless of text. When you hear it, it is undeniable. Read and Enjoy.

Peace



[edit on 10-9-2006 by HIFIGUY]

[edit on 10-9-2006 by HIFIGUY]

[edit on 10-9-2006 by HIFIGUY]

HiFiGuy:

HFG >> Show me this in the Bible: Is there anywhere in the Bible that says to build temples and churches to honor God?

Yes. Ezra 1:1-3. God's Sanctuary is prophesied to be "set . . . in their midst forever" in Ezekiel 37:26.

HFG >> Secondly, if it does, and all men are created equal, then women and men should be able to be pastors.

No sir. Your assertion here has no connection to God’s commands to build or rebuilt His Temple among men. Nobody ever said that men and women were created equal in the Bible. What does Scripture say?

“For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory OF GOD; but the woman is the glory of man.” 1Corinthians 11:7.

Women are forbidden to speak in the called out assembly:

“The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are NOT permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law ALSO says.” 1Corinthians 14:34.

Scripture also teaches that women are not to exercise authority over a man, saying,

“But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.” 1Timothy 2:12.

HFG >> But no where in the Bible does it say to build temples to Glorify God. The arguement of Pastor and teacher is in your own heart.

Above you asked the question and now you pretend to offer a Scriptural reply. Paul gives “Lord’s Commandment” (1Cor. 14:37+38) concerning ministers or ‘deacons’ (diakoneo #1247), saying,

“Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain . . .”. 1Timothy 3:8.

“These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach.” 1Timothy 3:10.

“Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households.” 1Timothy 3:12.

HFG >> Didnt the tower of Babyl piss God off? I think we should have learned something then.

God’s commands for the separation of duties between men and women are well outlined and defined. Can you find one verse saying that men are to keep silent in the churches? No.

HFG >> If you beleive in Love and equality for all, the churches would see that they live a paradox bv themselves.

Scripture does not teach equality for all. Eve was taken out of Adam to be his ‘helpmeet’ (Genesis 2:18+20), even before the fall. Paul adds to that, saying,

“For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And not Adam was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children IF they continue in faith AND love AND sanctity WITH self-restraint.” 1Timothy 2:13-15.

HFG >> The evangelical twist doesnt suit Gods interest, it suits mans interest of self elevation.

No sir. The quotes above all appear in God’s Living Word, which ‘you’ have chosen to ignore to teach otherwise.

HFG >> This is my translation. Woman and man are equal. It is not up to a translation, it is not up for debate. Equal is equal. Without woman there is no man. Without man there is no woman. Get over it. Prove me wrong.

No sir. Scripture declares women to be the ‘weaker’ vessel. 1Peter 3:7. Try cracking open your Bible to prove ‘any’ of your bogus ‘equality’ doctrines . . .

HFG >> Love between man and woman is the magic that allows man and woman. Love is the key. Bias is the lock.

Emotionalism is running amuck and your equality hypothesis above is not part of your Bible. Equal is only equal in your own mind . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

So Terral ... your bible says that men and women were not created equals so does that mean that you, Terral, will not treat them equally?

Are men held in higher regard than women to God?
If a man and a woman do the same job should they earn equal pay?
If a man and a woman vote, do their votes each count as one, or is the mans' worth more?

hmmmmmmmm????