The Case for Roswell: Part I.

Part II can be found here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I have obtained Mogul balloon flight records from the U.S. Air Force and found that not a single Mogul balloon train came near the Foster ranch and also, Mogul balloon train #4 never carried a rawin device of balsa wood and tin foil. To further add, Mogul balloon trains were not classified and just days after the Roswell incident in July 1947, the media was invited to witness the launch of a Project Mogul balloon. Pictures were taken and posted in the national newspapers afterwards.

What the Air Force didn't tell us is that Mogul balloon trains were sometimes recovered by ordinary civilians and left in open fields for days because Mogul balloon trains were of low priority as far as their recovery was concern. Rancher, Sid West, was one of those civilians who recovered a Mogul balloon train, yet there was no 'saucer story' for his recovery. To top it off, it took authorities a full day before they decided to send two people to recover the balloon train.

What the Air Force also never told the public is that the Mogul balloon team personnel recorded UFOs overflying New Mexico during some of their flight test and Charles Moore was one of those who witnessed an UFO over New Mexico. To sum it all up, no Mogul balloon train was ever responsible for the Roswell incident.

[edit on 17-2-2005 by skyeagle409]

[edit on 17-2-2005 by skyeagle409]

heres a stupid question WTF would human dummies be on a weather ballon lol

Test dummiy operations were carried out in the 1950's but the Roswell incident took place in 1947. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to firgure out what's wrong with that picture.

[edit on 17-2-2005 by skyeagle409]

Yep, the Air Force report would have us believe that adult-sized dummies in US flight suits (something everyone in Roswell would be familiar with as an air base town) with large USAF markings on it (as it changed from Army Air Force to USAF after the Roswell incident, as a result of the Security Act) would somehow by mistaken for 4' gray-skinned aliens with large black eyes.... The fact that the jump tests with dummies happened years after the incident, and as a completely different project, just further insults our intelligence.

Quote Why would the Air Force feel compelled to mention there were dummies used and recovered in the Mogul project crash? Especially if this would not have been possible. == Manda

Well, how about a come back question to you. First, is that EXACTLY what they said or one of many interpretations? If you were the responsible AF official, and you
KNEW this was not possible, what would your motive be to convey that intrepretation?

Quote I think Gazrock proved that these dummies were not used as early as the Roswell incident. == Manda (Mandalorianwarrior)

If he didnt, its easy enough to prove. It aint a secret. Here.....

www.ftss.com...

Quote The only reason they could have tried to explain the bodies is if they wanted this to be figured out, they were just that stupid, and/or they don't really care what we counter with. " == Manda

I believe that is an incredible insite. But unlike Fermi's paradox, there are more possibilities than those you have mentioned.

Quote I always wondered why they came out with the "Roswell Case Closed" report saying the crash was from project Mogul. It seems to me all they did was stir up the conspiracy even more.
==rwatkins

What I said to Manda. You and Manda are on the same page.

Quote It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what's wrong with that picture. == skyeagle

Not precisely your point, but I recall a photo associated with closing the book, you know, the black and white photo of dummies hanging on a rack.
Here is what is wrong with that photo: Those were GARD mannikins, manufactured in the 1960's. See the reference above, about page three or so.


Quote The fact that the jump tests with dummies happened years after the incident, and as a completely different project, just further insults our intelligence. == Gazrok

Back to you Gazrok ===> Insults, or challenges ?

(edit to correk spelling of Gazroc....apology Gazrok)


[edit on 19-2-2005 by nightwing]

Well, how about a come back question to you. First, is that EXACTLY what they said or one of many interpretations? If you were the responsible AF official, and you
KNEW this was not possible, what would your motive be to convey that intrepretation?

In the opening post, I provided a link to the official military explanation. You can read it yourself and see if it's an "interpretation" or if it's exactly what they were trying to convey. Their (the military's) conclusion was that the reports of bodies were the result of people finding these dummies years later and then confusing the events in their memories. Unfortunately for them, there is plenty of evidence that is completely contrary to this idea, as we'll see in the Timeline thread to come, such as the request to the local coroner for small body bags. Such a request would not be made, nor remembered, for parachute dummies...

Nightwing,

Thanks for the kind words and good thoughts.

www.ftss.com... I found this link very interesting. Just the kind of solid proof needed to prove that everything is not as it seems according to the Air Force explanation.

Quote:

Not precisely your point, but I recall a photo associated with closing the book, you know, the black and white photo of dummies hanging on a rack.
Here is what is wrong with that photo: Those were GARD mannikins, manufactured in the 1960's. See the reference above, about page three or so.

Man, they can't even get what set of dummies was involved correct

You are also correct in saying that there are more reasons then I stated for the Air Force using the dummies explanation. Maybe some people who created the report want to keep the story alive in hopes that people will have just enough info to crack the case in the future. They came up with a lowsy story that they knew could be seen for the pile of turd that it really is. They still did their job and tried to explain it away, but "Ooops, sorry Sir...I guess we goofed and now the secret is out."

There are even more reasons for why they may want to bring attention to this as well.

Maybe they also want us to focus on the wrong details and think of alien bodies when that isn't even the issue. Maybe it's better to have us think about the useless dead bodies that were recovered and not a craft that can be reverse engineered. Maybe it's not even a craft they are hiding. Who know's what it could be they want us to not think of.

I agree with what you're saying and you provided some good open-minded thinking that has helped me branch out a little more. Thanks. I really wonder what the trick is behind the dummies being mentioned. I'll try to see if I can link some more pieces together.

from the Dubose Affidavit:

Signature witnessed by:
Linda R. Split
Notary Public, State of Florida

Has anyone sourced this information, ie. background check to verify the Notary Public's existence/identity, etc. Not trying to discredit you, or the facts, just want to be clear on the characters involved. I also didn't notice any NP Seal on that document. ?

thanks

ps. great work

General Du Bose is an avid sports enthusiast. This enthusiasm is combined with his active photographic hobby. Among his many sports friends, Mr. Leo Durocher is perhaps the best known. They trace their friendship from 1945.
taken from: www.af.mil...

And if you read here:
www.cmgworldwide.com...

you get... Mr. Leo Durocher, Death date: October 7, 1991

Du Bose Affifdavit was Notarized on September 16, 1991

So... 3 weeks later, General TJ Du Bose's good friend and perhaps a confidante, dies and 4 months later the General follows suit... Died Feb. 24, 1992.

Perhaps this has been covered already, and I apologize for any redundancy on my part.

Has anyone sourced this information, ie. background check to verify the Notary Public's existence/identity, etc. Not trying to discredit you, or the facts, just want to be clear on the characters involved. I also didn't notice any NP Seal on that document. ?

Most of these affidavits are from Karl Plock's interviews and books. He's actually an avid debunker (even one cited in Jennings' special). So, you'd be assuming that the debunker wasn't validating his sources.

The affidavit is a text version, not a photograph image, so no you won't see a seal or anything. Most of the affidavits also come from the work of David Rudiak, another researcher, whose site is often linked throughout the threads.

I actually know a few Notaries though, here in FL, so if I think about it, I'll ask about how to verify such affidavits. As the info matches numerous interviews, from numerous specials, it seems a bit redundant, but one thing I learned doing these threads, is that redundancy helps separate the wheat from the chaff.

Stanton Friedman, one of the most respected UFO researchers, also noted this affidavit in one of his interviews...

DANFORTH: Florida Today (newspaper) writer Billy Cox has written many stories about UFO's and has spoken with at least one Roswell witness that I'm aware of, General Thomas Jefferson Dubose. Could you tell us about the general?

FRIEDMAN: He was a key officer who was, when I met him, retired. At the time, in 1947, he was Colonel Dubose, chief of staff of General Roger Ramey, head of the 8th Air Force, based in Fort Worth, Texas. That's where the saucer wreckage went on it's first stop. That's where Ramey put out the story, after being instructed to do so, that it was just a weather balloon.

Now, Dubose is the one, and we have sworn testimony, and he's on video, that took the call from the head of the Strategic Air Command, Clemence McMullen, who told him, in no uncertain terms, three instructions (this was after the press had already written the story on Roswell):

1) Send some of that wreckage up here with one of your colonel couriers, immediately.

2) Cover it up with the media, I don't care how you do it.

3) I don't want you to ever talk about it again, not even with General Ramey.

Those are direct quotes from Colonel Dubose. And, you know, typical of us UFO nuts, he's a West Point graduate with over 18,000 hours as a pilot. So he's on file, and Billy Cox had guts enough to talk to him.

As for this...

So... 3 weeks later, General TJ Du Bose's good friend and perhaps a confidante, dies and 4 months later the General follows suit... Died Feb. 24, 1992.

These witnesses are elderly, and as we all know, FL here is known as "God's Waiting Room", so this isn't really all that surprising. Nothing about the deaths seem mysterious.

[edit on 22-4-2005 by Gazrok]

thanks for answering my queries, Gaz!

At the time I was posting my thoughts concerning the Affidavit and NP I thought, surely this must have been explored by UFOligists by now.

And clearly it has.

The last part about the closeness in dates between Du Bose and Durocher's deaths, I admit that that is a stretch in trying to connect the various aspects of the Roswell Conspiracy together.

The Air Force documentation seems to paint a picture, however, that the two were very good friends, beginning in 1945. I'm speculating that their bond may have developed farther than a mutual enthusiasm for sports. If Du Bose confessed anything about The Roswell Incident to Durocher, he may have chosen 1991 as the time to Publicly Disclose his actions to coincide with the near departation of himself and good friend. Thus protecting Durocher and himself from retribution at the hands of governmental officials.

A shot in the dark at best, but you have to consider the possibility of such a relationship existing.

Sure...but I'd be interested to see how either of them died, before entertaining the notion of hits....

"I'd be interested to see how either of them died, before entertaining the notion of hits" == Gazrok

Or at least compare their age at death to the national average lifespan for a sanity check.

On a different note, I have followed this Roswell series with interest, as its more up to date and better organized
than most of the stuff out there. While I recognize that it is designed to play to the home crowd (believers),
I also think it could be de-spun into a useful reference piece. Does your pride of ownership prohibit your
entertaining the notion of constructive criticism ?

Thank you for sharing all this information and taking the time to edit it and present it in a very accesible way for everyone who's interested on the subject.

reply to post by DarkElvis


Thank you...was quite some time ago. Be sure to read the other parts, as there is much more to the rabbit hole.

I also think it could be de-spun into a useful reference piece. Does your pride of ownership prohibit your
entertaining the notion of constructive criticism ?

No, not at all, and I welcome the criticisms of others on this (as I'm sure you've seen since your post above).... Over time, it's difficult to decipher what is what in regards to this case, and clarifications often lead to seeing the information in a new light, whether or pro or con to an alien explanation of the event.

Admittedly, it's difficult to divorce oneself from the work involved, but I certainly endeavor to do so, in the discussion of the subject objectively. After all, I went into the case expecting to prove Mogul, and was actually surprised the evidence seemed to lead elsewhere. However, there are many, many bad apples in this case, and even unintentional faulty memories. Still, as a whole, the collective story is still amazing.

reply to post by Gazrok


I read an excellent book on the subject of the Roswell cover up some years back. It was called The Day After Roswell published in 1998 I believe. Nobody seriously thinks the Roswell crash was a balloon anymore but the real headline is the story behind the actual reason the military covered it up which was NOT to deceive the American public as most people think. I'm including a blog post about the book that goes into not only what was covered up, why, by whom but also written by the Army intelligence officer (colonel philip corso) who participated in the cover up and was primarily responsible for storing and researching the recovered alien artifacts. I recommend the book too. Here's the blog link if you're interested:

dcmusgrove.blogspot.com...

I agree the project Mogul explanation doesn't fly because the balloons themselves were not top secret, only the mission. Civilians found Mogul balloons all the time and in fact they even had an address on them to let civilians know where to return them if they found them. Major Jesse Marcel would have been able to identify a balloon. Yet with Roswell the Army guards the "crash site" not letting anyone in, including the Sheriff and then they threaten civilians. Public flight records show top people in the military flew to Roswell around July 7, 1947. Sounds like an over reaction over a crashed Mogul balloon to say the least. Also after the Army first inspected the material, why did they put out a press release saying "RAAF Captures Flying Saucer On Ranch in Roswell Region"? Seems like to me the base was acting on its own and higher powers decided it was not a good idea to release this info to the public so the story changed. These fact alone proves the government is still lying today about Roswell and with the Ramey Memo confirming that there was a disk with aviators and victims, I think thats the smoking gun which proves Roswell was an extraterrestrial event. Any person with common sense would see all this. I'm not gullible enough to believe everything the government tells me. Despite all these fact, this will never make national news because the subject is untouchable in the media world and the Government does have some control over what the media reports when it comes to national security. And UFOs are a national security issue.

I think the dummy explanation was ridiculous. They said the bodies people were reporting were dummies. Then when it was brought to their attention that dummies weren't dropped until 1953, the Air Force then said people got two different events mixed up. I could lie better than that and it baffles me how anyone can believe that. Another interesting thing to point out is that public records shows it took several planes to transport whatever they found at Roswell. The government has yet to explain why it takes that many planes to transport a mogul balloon. Another thing that people over look is when the project mogul mission was declassified. It was declassified in the 1970s so after all the speculation as to what crashed in Roswell, why did it take decades later for the government to tell the world it was Project Mogul? Also interesting is that the governments explanation in the 1980s was that it was a kite. Why not tell the world then it was Project Mogul since it was already declassified?

Here are the big reasons for the UFO cover-up. Once you understand the reasons, you see why the government won't disclose this.

1) Power and Control

2) Technology - Craft capable of warping space and time would have a technology that could be used as a weapon far more dangerous than the atom bomb. Furthermore this technology could replace fossil fuels as a source of energy which would sink the oil and coal industries

3) World Economic Collapse - introducing technology far ahead of us too quickly would surely lead to world economic collapse.

4) Religion - The UFO reality would shake the foundations of organized religion and turn the Adam and Eve story into a fairy tale. There is a direct connection between UFOs and the origins of human beings. It has been said we were created by extraterrestrials through a DNA hybridization program meaning Extraterrestrial DNA was combined with apes to create the modern day human being. This explains the UFO abduction where aliens are taking DNA samples from people and typically they show the victims a human/alien hybrid. This suggests they are still altering our DNA and this explains how man evolved. Alien/Human hybrids are mentioned in in text from every ancient civilization from the ancient Sumerians to the Holy Bible where it speaks of fallen angels coming to earth, mating with women to produce a hybrid offspring called the Nephilm. The Sumerians believed that the Annunaki created humans by mixing DNA from apes with their own. Think about how this would affect certain religions. How does this affect Jesus being the son of God? how does the truth affect who God really is? How would this affect our religious traditions and holidays? This is some pretty serious and scary stuff.

5) other secrets - Many illegal acts were committed by our government to keep this a secret. A lot of people would be going to prison if this got out. Some have speculated that JFK and Marilyn Monroe were killed over this and there seems to be circumstantial evidence of that. The government has kept the secret so long they are afraid if the people find out they were lying to them about this all hell would break lose. The government robbed us from the truth. Secret treaties were created with aliens without our knowledge and without the approval of congress. For years we have been using primitive technology when we could have been using more advanced technologies. We have spent billions on the space shuttle program when we could have been using technology from UFOs. The Challenger and Columbia explosions would have never happened.

There a many complex reasons for keeping this secret and I don't see this being disclosed unless the aliens show them selves on a mass level or if someone or some group reveals evidence that no one can deny.

reply to post by Gazrok


Oh my found this linked from one of SO's threads, was just thinking recently about how much I miss finding these jems on a regular basis. Could you do me a favor and pop out some more quality threads like this one? I mean, yes it is a subject that has been bled dry, but then when we see it put in perspective like this it is still a fascinating subject.