Vedic Physics

reply to post by truthnotlies


Truthnotlies,

This is a very old thread. I would suggest you start your research by looking into Vedic stuff. In particular Vedic physics, there is a book of that title on amazon. You will find loads of books written on this subject on amazon, as well as vedabooks.com. In particular look for books on Samkhya, Vaiseshika and Vedanta.

Nice work! I am not kidding!

First the praises:

I had a vague idea that Hindus were knowledgeable in many fields, I didn't suspect they were THAT knowledgeable! While there are some, small, parts a bit hard to "swallow" (like parts of the Alchemy section), in general this seems pretty close to what our view of the cosmos is today, through our Physics.

Not to mention the hard work behind all this. I mean, just the typing must have been like a full time job.

Now, the "juicy part" (you knew this was coming, no? Hey, it's me! )

One thing I cannot really "stomach" is the introduction of Hindu terms here and there without a translation. I am not talking about names (of people or texts or schools of thought, those are unavoidable), I am talking of terms, notions or other stuff that could be translated to help us understand the full text better. I will go out on a limb here and ask, late as it is, for some editing of translatable Hindu words - unless of course there was a deeper reason they were left untranslated, in which case I withdraw my plea.
(It may have worked for Tolkien, to provide names, phrases, even whole songs without bothering to interpret or translate but he was writing fantasy, you are not!)

The Alchemy part was below standard, compared to the others (that is NOT targeted towards you). While they had a pretty "solid" understanding of the "Physics" portion of it all, they did fall short in parts of their Chemistry (Unless the whole section is about something else). According to this, it has been more than 30 years since the first "discovery" of this peculiar state (peculiar in metals, in standard conditions) and no tangible results are present. Hudson must have either "buried" the whole research behind his patents or there was nothing substantial to research (commonly known as hoax!). The fact that most links to it appear to be from alternative science forums or dubious sites that sell the stuff as food (!!) doesn't help either (I admit I didn't go through 2,730 links found by Google, just checked the first few pages).

Now on to more "personal" stuff. I'd really like it, when you present an ancient text that you didn't write, to leave out any personal thoughts, beliefs and/or ideas for later comments. Presenting AND commenting at the same time confuses people (we are not all smart, you know). Also, commenting on things beyond your grasp is risky. It is one thing to say, for example, that the Hindus were far more advanced than other contemporaries or civilizations than followed in the course of history and another to so often "marvel" in the way they were far more advanced than ANYTHING. If they were so advanced, where are the physical manifestations of that advancement? Did they put their advancement to some kind of use or was it all just for their mental pleasure (which is not bad in itself, it is just that others may be more advanced than them in making things happen out of the knowledge they possess)?

One final remark (we butted heads on the technology and engineering thread for this ), when you make leaps and declare something as "true", "final", "fact", do provide some physical evidence from an independent source please. It makes questioning your position harder and establishes you as "one who knows what he talks about".

Of course, that could be true without my input in which case it will be self-debunked (how can one that clearly doesn't KNOW all make pointers on someone who does?).


[edit on 18-1-2010 by Maegnas]

On physical evidence. Unfortunately, there exists barely any physical evidence to show how advanced the ancient Vedic people were. Does this mean we forget about all other forms of evidence, just because we do not have physical evidence? My mind does not work like that. I will infer something in the absence of physical evidence, because I know we cannot always have physical evidence of something and we cannot solely rely on it either.

The way I see it that ancient Vedic people are already thousands of years ahead of what we call modern times. They understand mechanics that is not rediscovered until modern times, they understand chemistry that is not rediscovered until modern times, they understand physics that is not rediscovered until modern times. It is only logical to infer that the ancient Vedic people are ahead of modern times.

As far as I am concerned we can learn more from ancient Vedic sciences than we can from the most modern sciences. Vedic sciences has been passed onto us from a previous advanced civilisation that once existed on this Earth. I think, we can seek inspiration from them, to rebuild that same civilisation. Their most important knowledge was their discoveries in spiritual sciences.

I have a great respect for our ancestors. I do not think our ancestors were anymore less knowledgable and capable than we are today. It is just a shame that so many traces of their legacy have been wiped out. However, fortunately the Vedic stuff survived, by which an intelligent person can infer and reconstruct the past. The truth is there in plain sight, you simply need to recognise it.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
On physical evidence. Unfortunately, there exists barely any physical evidence to show how advanced the ancient Vedic people were. Does this mean we forget about all other forms of evidence, just because we do not have physical evidence?(1) My mind does not work like that. I will infer something in the absence of physical evidence, because I know we cannot always have physical evidence of something and we cannot solely rely on it either.

The way I see it that ancient Vedic people are already thousands of years ahead of what we call modern times. They understand mechanics that is not rediscovered until modern times, they understand chemistry that is not rediscovered until modern times, they understand physics that is not rediscovered until modern times. It is only logical to infer that the ancient Vedic people are ahead of modern times.(2)

As far as I am concerned we can learn more from ancient Vedic sciences than we can from the most modern sciences.(3) Vedic sciences has been passed onto us from a previous advanced civilisation that once existed on this Earth. I think, we can seek inspiration from them, to rebuild that same civilisation.(4) Their most important knowledge was their discoveries in spiritual sciences.(5)

I have a great respect for our ancestors. I do not think our ancestors were anymore less knowledgable and capable(6) than we are today. It is just a shame that so many traces of their legacy have been wiped out. However, fortunately the Vedic stuff survived, by which an intelligent person can infer and reconstruct the past. The truth is there in plain sight, you simply need to recognise it. (7)

I took the liberty of making some parts bold to stand out better. then, as usual, I will ask some grammar questions (I know, I will never learn not to challenge proven authorities but that's just me). I also placed some "markers" (numbers in parenthesis) to help navigate through my questions and remarks.

OK, we begin by...(1)
No, we don't! there's evidence that points to something and evidence that proves something. So far we lack the evidence that proves. We do however have enough evidence to have indications, strong or not so strong from case to case. In the absence of physical evidence (or verifiable ones) we can theorize, speculate, imagine but not prove. Can we agree on this one?

(2)
How can ancient Indians be "ahead of modern times" when ALL what you referred to and they were advanced in was REDISCOVERED? Not in 100 years from today, not in 1000 years from today. Unless you meant "not yet rediscovered", in which case you are right. The only way this can stand is if you meant that they were ahead of modern times because, simply, they discovered all those things BEFORE modern (as we perceive them) times. Is this what you meant?

(3)
Really? What do the Vedic texts say about the course of the Andromeda Galaxy and its collision course to our own Galaxy? What about cancer, is there anything on cancer there that we don't know today? Did Indian society follow the capitalistic or the socialistic doctrine? What were their views on global warming? Plate tectonics? The Asteroid belt, the Kuyper belt and the Oort cloud? What about the possibility of life in Europa and Enceladus?

(4)
didn't their culture die in a supposed nuclear war? Is this what are we supposed to "copy"?

(5)
ah, the "field" with all the cool experiments. Maybe they mastered telekinetic powers and aided the Egyptians with their pyramids.

(6)
Knowledgeable and capable is not the same thing, is it? They could be the most capable yet not so knowledgeable, or vice versa. It is not mandatory these go hand in hand.

(7)
It depends what truth you talk about, one that can be verified or one that one believes in without enough proof. The former is scientific truth, the latter is religious truth - and I am not religious

No, we don't! there's evidence that points to something and evidence that proves something. So far we lack the evidence that proves. We do however have enough evidence to have indications, strong or not so strong from case to case. In the absence of physical evidence (or verifiable ones) we can theorize, speculate, imagine but not prove. Can we agree on this one?

]

Yep, in that case we have strong indications for this advanced Vedic civilisation that once existed. Short of inventing a time machine and going back in time, we have no other way of proving it.

(2)
How can ancient Indians be "ahead of modern times" when ALL what you referred to and they were advanced in was REDISCOVERED? Not in 100 years from today, not in 1000 years from today. Unless you meant "not yet rediscovered", in which case you are right. The only way this can stand is if you meant that they were ahead of modern times because, simply, they discovered all those things BEFORE modern (as we perceive them) times. Is this what you meant?

Rediscovered in the sense that we actually were able to prove some of the things they said. Not in the sense that we have been able to reach their levels. We are still working on a unified theory of physics, the Vedic people already have one. The vedic physical theory is similar to quantum physics and string theory, however the vedic theory is metaphysical.

They have been able to create what I call perfect sciences. Their linguistics is perfect. Their medicine and health sciences are perfect. Their music is perfect. Their psychology is perfect. Their poetry is perfect. Their metaphysics is perfect. Their society is perfect. We are very very behind them.

Really? What do the Vedic texts say about the course of the Andromeda Galaxy and its collision course to our own Galaxy? What about cancer, is there anything on cancer there that we don't know today? Did Indian society follow the capitalistic or the socialistic doctrine? What were their views on global warming? Plate tectonics? The Asteroid belt, the Kuyper belt and the Oort cloud? What about the possibility of life in Europa and Enceladus?

All of this has been lost. All that has survived from that period is the Vedas, because of the oral tradition and the precise methods of preservation, and the Vedas themselves need to be decoded using the vedic methods. The Vedas in fact talk about cosmic rays and cosmic energy. The Vedic spectrometer described earlier is built using a Vedic texts that has survived to this day. There are thousands of untranslated Sanskrit texts stored in various monestaries in India.

didn't their culture die in a supposed nuclear war? Is this what are we supposed to "copy"?

Nope, this culture was not destroyed in a nuclear war. This culture was destroyed tens of thousands of years ago in a massive cataclysm causing massive continents to sink. These Vedic people migrated from there and into India and setup the Indus valley civilisation. This civilisation was much lower tech than the Vedic home, but the few elite had access to advanced technology and advanced science secrets.

(5)
ah, the "field" with all the cool experiments. Maybe they mastered telekinetic powers and aided the Egyptians with their pyramids.

No, the spiritual sciences are sciences which can transform you completely as a person and awaken all your dormant abilities and faculties. A trivial example would be things like photographic memory, genius intelligence. This is why many people in the Vedic tradition have amazing memory, psychic abilities and intelligence. The main thing of ancient Vedic society was self-development and this is why very realised people like masters, sages and Risis were at the top of Vedic society.

Again we are very very behind the ancient Vedic people. In spirituality we are like infants compared to them.

(6)
Knowledgeable and capable is not the same thing, is it? They could be the most capable yet not so knowledgeable, or vice versa. It is not mandatory these go hand in hand.

They were both knowledable and capable. They are the closest to what we would call superhuman or even "gods" That was the golden age and we are currently in the dark ages. If we work towards it, we could bring back the golden Vedic age. However, we must start with developing spiritually first and not technologically. If we develop anymore in technology with out current infant spirituality, we will definitely destroy ourselves, if not turn the world into an insufferable hell.

(7)
It depends what truth you talk about, one that can be verified or one that one believes in without enough proof. The former is scientific truth, the latter is religious truth - and I am not religious

I am not religious either.

[edit on 19-1-2010 by Indigo_Child]

After each of your posts I feel like (a) never logging back on here, (b) killing myself for not being ancient Hindu, (c) killing myself for being so ignorant, (d) killing myself for not being able to see all this certainty without the faintest tangible proof, and I was wondering why I felt like that. Now I know and I thank you for it

They have been able to create what I call perfect sciences. Their linguistics is perfect. Their medicine and health sciences are perfect. Their music is perfect. Their psychology is perfect. Their poetry is perfect. Their metaphysics is perfect. Their society is perfect. We are very very behind them.

Since their medicine is perfect (note the present tense, YOU used that) and their health sciences are perfect we need not quarrel here who is "right" or "wrong", we can ask them! They ARE around, no? With perfect medicine and health sciences they are immortal (I am getting the hang of your logic, slowly). Since their language is perfect, it is spoken by trillions among us. Since their physics is perfect we need not study, experiment, ask questions or look at the skies, ALL has been answered (and what is not answered is conveniently lost). Since their psychology is perfect nobody among them is mentally defective or paranoid or disordered. Wait until Mozart hears about their music, he will surely die, again! And, yes their previous continent was swallowed by the sea (or a flood or a comet that struck it or a weapon detonating in the wrong time and place - no, that cannot be since their weapons as part of their physics are perfect too), all it's billions of square miles, needed to house all that perfection, gone under the waves, waves which all this perfection failed to predict or prevent.

OK, we're done here. Ancient Hindus ARE perfect, a perfect way to waste time on the Internet. Of course, the descendants of such perfection are having trouble feeding themselves but that's another perfect story

"Perfect" is something flawless, something that nothing can "harm" in any way. Are you SURE you insist on "perfect"? Because your case becomes very shaky when "perfect" is introduced among MY arguments

I forgot to ask, the destruction that befell their perfect land (no, I won't say planet, I will restrain my imperfect self) happened when? Tens of thousands of years ago? Not hundreds of thousands of years ago? Or even millions of years ago? Billions maybe? (I have a feeling that if "older" means "better" for you, provided it is Indian of course, I can get you to tens of billions of years ago).

and another thing, where exactly (OK, not exactly, roughly) was that land (again, I WON'T say planet)? which ocean on Earth dared swallow such perfection? Which ocean on Earth CAN contain such perfection? (I won't apologize either, perfection is a heavy "duty" and those who are perfect should be able to carry it out in full, or otherwise "perfectly"!)

(d) killing myself for not being able to see all this certainty without the faintest tangible proof, and I was wondering why I felt like that. Now I know and I thank you for it

You don't have to kill yourself. I can show you proof for some:

Perfect Music:

Vedic music is the most complex music to learn and the scales used are more precise and complex than those used in the West:

Unlike western music in carnatic music ther are 22 notes in an octave( as compared to 12 in the west). Using vibratos, you can achive the extra notes on a giutar.
We noted that in carnatic music it is not enough to produce just twelve or even twenty two 'tones' in an octave. One ought to produce even the intermediate frequencies. These intermediate frequencies, which do not have any keys to produce them, are called 'microtones'. The Indian word for the 'microtone' is 'gamakam'. (of course, 'gamak' in hindi) It is often very difficult to explain this concept clearly and precisely. If the C key produces 240 Hz and the C# key produces 254 Hz what intermediate frequencies are we talking about? Does Indian music use sounds produced at 247 Hz? Treatises have been written in India about such microtonal apects of music. Suffice it to say that microtones or gamakams tend to be clustered around the primary key frequency, although this need not always be the case.

www.ultimate-guitar.com...

Perfect language:

Sanskrit, itself meaning "perfectly formed" is the most precise, most complex and most advanced language in the world. Even more precise than formal programming languages:

In ancient India the intention to discover truth was so consuming, that in the process, they discovered perhaps the most perfect tool for fulfilling such a search that the world has ever known -- the Sanskrit language. There is at least one language, Sanskrit, which for the duration of almost 1000 years was a living spoken language with a considerable literature of its own. Besides works of literary value, there was a long philosophical and grammatical tradition that has continued to exist with undiminished vigor until the present century. Among the accomplishments of the grammarians can be reckoned a method for paraphrasing Sanskrit in a manner that is identical not only in essence but in form with current work in Artificial Intelligence. This article demonstrates that a natural language can serve as an artificial language also, and that much work in AI has been reinventing a wheel millennia old.

The discovery is of monumental significance. It is mind-boggling to consider that we have available to us a language which has been spoken for 4-7000 years that appears to be in every respect a perfect language designed for enlightened communication. But the most stunning aspect of the discovery is this: NASA the most advanced research center in the world for cutting edge technology has discovered that Sanskrit, the world's oldest spiritual language is the only unambiguous spoken language on the planet. Considering Sanskrit's status as a spiritual language, a further implication of this discovery is that the age old dichotomy between religion and science is an entirely unjustified one.

www.aaai.org...

Perfect metaphysics:

Vedic metaphysics is the most advanced, most complex metaphysics known in the world:

Vedanta is the most impressive metaphysics the human mind has conceived.
– Alfred North Whitehead (British mathematician and philosopher)

With recent developments in Quantum Mechanics and the philosophy of science, the dialogue of Western scientific thought has advanced to the point where its cutting edge exposes many issues equivalent to those discussed in Vedanta. Now that this has occurred, the timeless principles of Vedanta can be expressed in the technical language of Quantum Mechanics and the philosophy of science, with little or no attenuation of meaning. Quantum physics and Vedanta address the same philosophical object: the inconceivable, immeasurable and immanent nature of Absolute Reality, of which the observable phenomenological cosmos is but a tiny subset. The two disciplines approach the subject from widely divergent points of view and use vastly different language to treat it. Nevertheless, the commonality of subject between Western science and Vedanta makes it possible to reconcile them without diminishing the importance or subtlety of either. Scientific Vedanta is the first attempt to translate the enduring wisdom of Vedanta into the new scientific language of Quantum Physics.

transontology.org...

As I said: We are very very behind.

[edit on 19-1-2010 by Indigo_Child]

This does not negate the fact that all this perfection is lost. Plus, taking a different approach to things doesn't make one approach better or more advanced than another.

And there are still many of my questions unanswered. What about those?

Originally posted by Maegnas
This does not negate the fact that all this perfection is lost. Plus, taking a different approach to things doesn't make one approach better or more advanced than another.

And there are still many of my questions unanswered. What about those?

This is hardly a different approach. It is a more refined approach. You can tell something is more advanced by the level of complexity and precision.
Vedic language is so complex and precise, it requires a computer grammar to generate sentences. Vedic music is so complex and precise, it can glide effortlessly from one microtone to the other. Vedic metaphysics is also very complex and precise, using a very powerful vocabulary of technical terms to describe difficult philosophical concepts like mind, consciousness, reality.

Precision and complexity is something you find throughout Vedic sciences. I have not even mentioned Vedic poetry yet, which is basically like mathematics.

An indicator of a civilisations level of advancement is how advanced their critical thinking, logic and language is. There is no doubt about it, the Vedic civilisation is far ahead of our modern civilisation. This civilisation did defintiely exist and has been lost now.

You ask why has it been lost? The Vedic people answer this themselves. The earth is subject to natural cycles. The Vedic people lived in a golden age on this planet, but each golden age eventually falls and an iron age(today) comes. We are currently in the iron age. We know for a fact that cataclysmic events take place on Earth every so often. Ice ages come and go; supervolcanos erupt; plates shift; massive tsunamis appear. There maybe unknown geological changes that can sink entire continents. I don't exactly know how the Vedic civilisation fell, but I do know that it existed, and I do feel that we should rebuild it.

[edit on 19-1-2010 by Indigo_Child]

Vedic language is so complex and precise, it requires a computer grammar to generate sentences. Vedic music is so complex and precise, it can glide effortlessly from one microtone to the other. Vedic metaphysics is also very complex and precise, using a very powerful vocabulary of technical terms to describe difficult philosophical concepts like mind, consciousness, reality.

Hmm, it seems to me "perfect" is no more?

I still maintain that such a perfect culture SHOULD be able to deal with whatever brought them down (or they were NOT that perfect to begin with), they should be able to preserve their way of life and culture. That's what perfect cultures do

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reply to post by Harte
Apparently India has invented everything already...maybe if they'd also invented a patent office or sustainable media Indigo wouldn't look so foolish?

I asked in the Engineering thread too, where exactly in the Vedas are all these perfect sciences discussed? Don't be shy, give me a name, even in Sanskrit