Let's Have A Nuts And Bolts UFO Discussion

a reply to: DanDanDat

In the scheme of things, and with all we know about the hostility of space, it's more reasonable to favour AI (or similar iterations) over flesh and bone beings. Also, we sent probes first and then sent the meat sacks.

For me, the best way to reconcile the 'space is big' problem with the reported presence of structured flying devices is to remove biological beings. Time and distance aren't as problematic in that scenario and the issue of resources becomes a smaller one.

a reply to: Kandinsky

yes it's true that it decomplicates things in one aspect to send drones or non living beings first.

but, if you're looking at that as a reason to put up with extremely long distances and presumed eons of time to transit them it makes little sense. what good is a drone or robot probe to the people who made the things if they still won't be arriving in any useful time span to their destination let alone sending data back except via snail mail.

the solution for both unmanned and manned would be to exponentially cut down on travel time regardless.

... maybe there's a way to do just that.

a reply to: BASSPLYR

I get your point. There's only so much information we have and I like to stay as grounded as possible. Too often there are people who go from A to Z when they haven't established that A is even right. That's why I favour the non-bio possibility.

what good is a drone or robot probe to the people who made the things if they still won't be arriving in any useful time span to their destination let alone sending data back except via snail mail.

I don't necessarily believe there *has* to be a biological anything here. It's possible an advanced (Type 2/3) civ has moved past flesh and bone and crossed into technology. If such a leap was possible, we'd be discussing 'immortals' who could occupy a space smaller than our micro-SD cards. 'Home' might not be a meaningful thing to sentient technology that's possibly been around for hundreds of thousands of years.

It's something that interests me as a concept. Imagine being sentient technology? The pursuit of novelty might become a driving factor after a million years and the knowledge of a Multi-Vac.

a reply to: Kandinsky

i like your posts Kandinsky theyre always pretty balanced and measured. very cool.

a reply to: BASSPLYR

Likewise.

a reply to: TheBadCabbie

"A bicycle wheel is a flywheel. If you remove the rim
and tire,leaving only the spokes sticking out of the hub,
you still have a flywheel. In fact, spokes alone make a
more efficient flywheel than the complete wheel .But
spokes alone still generate centrifugal force equally
in all directions from the plane of rotation. All you
have to do to concentrate centrifugal force in one
direction is remove all the spokes but one. That one
spokestill functions as a flywheel, even though it is not
a wheel any longer.But our centrifuge still generates
a centrifugal force acceleration in all directions around
the plane of rotation.To solve this problem, now that we have come
to it, we need merely to accelerate the spoke through a few degrees
of arc and then let it complete the cycle of revolution without
power. As long as it is accelerated during the same arc at each
cycle, the locomotive will lurch in one direction, albeit
intermittently. But don't forget that the piston engine also drives
intermittently. The regular centrifugal pulses can be evened out by
mounting several centrifuges on the same axle so that a pulse from
another flywheel takes over as soon as one pulse of power is past
it's arc. Therefore, what we need is a spoke that has a
tremendous velocity with minimal mass. They don't make spokes like
that for bicycle wheels. A search through the engineers' catalog
however, turns up just the kind of centrifuge we need. An electron
has no mass at rest (you cannot find a smaller minimum mass than
that); all it's mass is inherent in its velocity. So we build an
electron raceway in the shape of a doughnut in which we can
accelerate an electron to a speed close to that of light. As the
speed of light is approached, the energy of acceleration is
converted to a momentum approaching infinity.High energy
electrons ionize the air surrounding them. This causes the
betatrons to glow like an annular neon tube.

Therefore, around the rim of the saucer a ring of lights will
glow like a string of shining beads at night."
nexusilluminati.blogspot.com.au...
www.sacred-texts.com...
dunno ... maybe

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: BASSPLYR

I get your point. There's only so much information we have and I like to stay as grounded as possible. Too often there are people who go from A to Z when they haven't established that A is even right. That's why I favour the non-bio possibility.

what good is a drone or robot probe to the people who made the things if they still won't be arriving in any useful time span to their destination let alone sending data back except via snail mail.

I don't necessarily believe there *has* to be a biological anything here. It's possible an advanced (Type 2/3) civ has moved past flesh and bone and crossed into technology. If such a leap was possible, we'd be discussing 'immortals' who could occupy a space smaller than our micro-SD cards. 'Home' might not be a meaningful thing to sentient technology that's possibly been around for hundreds of thousands of years.

It's something that interests me as a concept. Imagine being sentient technology? The pursuit of novelty might become a driving factor after a million years and the knowledge of a Multi-Vac.

I agree to disagree...for I tend believe it would be a fools errand to use an AI to represent a biological sentient race from another star system...for say, using the AI for stealth operations (or even peaceful AI to Earthling contact) on our planet like Earth; because of the possible repercussions, say...if the AI went bonkers and/or was captured for nefarious reasons.

a reply to: Erno86

I agree to disagree...for I tend to believe it would be a fools errand to use an AI to represent a biological sentient race from another star system...

I didn't say 'AI' or suggest they were representatives of a biological race from distant star systems. I was just riffing on the idea that consciousness (sentience) itself will inevitably become technological given enough time. Arguably, we'll be blending and grafting technology into our future bodies and minds until we become more tech than blood and bone.

Perhaps a civilisation went past that point already?

I'm open to ideas is all and not particularly wedded to any hypothesis.

With the universe being so big knowledge and understanding would be the defining force in future technological entities..

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: DanDanDat

In the scheme of things, and with all we know about the hostility of space, it's more reasonable to favour AI (or similar iterations) over flesh and bone beings. Also, we sent probes first and then sent the meat sacks.

For me, the best way to reconcile the 'space is big' problem with the reported presence of structured flying devices is to remove biological beings. Time and distance aren't as problematic in that scenario and the issue of resources becomes a smaller one.

I'm sorry...I quoted the wrong post, instead of this one --- In relatioin to my last post.

a reply to: BASSPLYR

funny iv seen something just like that but much smaller glowing purple(airglow?) during a 'ufo' sighting.


interference is interesting seeing as it was a digital camera. might have to go back to 35mm to avoid countermeasures

a reply to: Kandinsky

i think the ultimate expression of technology would look and act like a biological system, it would be biological but 'enhanced' with technologies.

look at CRISPER technologies, imagine in 1000's of years with nano tech and genetic engineering could muster.


if you could enhance the brain with genes and enhance it further with nano tech, and do the same with the body on the surface we would appear biological but in reality we would be mechanistic.

our bodys are already biological machines we just lack the tools to really change it

a reply to: penroc3

I guess it will depend on where technology takes us...or those from other places. For argument's sake, it could be said that our sentience is our defining feature. It's what has taken us off this planet and out into local space. Our bodies, on the other hand, have carried us this far, but could they be improved upon? Might they become obsolete if science evolves to where consciousness can be contained in something other than a brain in its skull atop a skeletal body?

There are good arguments against this being possible, but I'm in no rush to get into them right now.

We already have body prosthetics that will soon enough be better than what nature provides. There are brain interfaces under development too and a lot of speculation about how far we can take them.

All things considered, it's not unreasonable to speculate that sentient, techno-biological life will ultimately be able to exist without organs and limbs. Imagine the efficiency of an intelligent entity who isn't reliant on all that goes with digestion and respiration. There may come a time when some populations will be several generations removed from biology.

I've no doubt your scenario will also be part of the journey towards the future I'm imagining. All these advancements and augmentations are stepping stones towards an existence we only imagine in science fiction. I see a lot more dystopia in this future and it'll be led by a very small percentage of people. After all, we'd really be creating a class of individuals whose advantages would be almost god-like compared to the rest.

a reply to: Kandinsky

i have alway wondered about the concept of the transporter in star trek. is that a copy or the original person?

is the ghost in our body(machine) an emergent property of the brain or is it something more? is it quantifiable?

this goes to my opening statement, if i could download myself in to a synthetic body or onto the internet and part of that process was the original body was killed, what if the original person didn't die? who is the real you?

from the synth perspective it just woke up from the procedure and would claim to be the real you..but that is only if our ghost can't be transfered(i dont think it can)

ughhhh...my head hurts

a reply to: penroc3

The whole concept is fraught with weirdness and headaches lol. Your points remind me of the film, Moon, with the guy on his own...except he was on his own with scores of other 'hims.'

a reply to: penroc3

this was in ontario probably outside Toronto I think. kinda in your area. makes sense if youve seen something like it. you live in a hot spot though. bet you see lots of intetesting things where you are.

a reply to: BASSPLYR

im maybe 2 hours from toronto.

that was the closest non triangle iv ever seen. it went right over my head(my gf and sister were out there with me). this was years ago so i dont know other then the shape if it was relevant.

but the shape really stood out

There may be some element(s) out there that we could never have dreamed existed. With an abundance of this special element, it could be harnessed & manipulated in such a way to create travel over vast distances to also defy gravity etc. For example...this element when pressurized, will push back negatively but 10 times as much. I know this is kooky, but there has to be something out there we don't know about or understand.

Jumping in here (hi bass)

I find the "Airship Sightings" of the late 1890s to be very interesting. Considering we didnt really have that sort of technology then, from a nuts and bolts perspective what we would attribute them as being?

Some of them yes, would have been early prototypes of blimps and dare I say it... balloons! A considerable proportion of them would have been what they are now, misidentified and explainable.

But not all of them and some of the eye witness testimony of the time also fits in with the narrative of the phenomenon from later years. I find this particular area of UFOlogy fascinating considering the widely accepted technology of the times and no real human flight until years later.

Some accounts during this wave of airship reports claim that occupants were visible on some airships, and encounters with the pilots were reported as well.[6] These occupants often appeared to be human, though their behaviour, mannerisms and clothing were sometimes reported to be unusual.[5] Sometimes the apparent humans claimed to be from the planet Mars.[5]
en.wikipedia.org...

Fascinating...

What I do find hilarious to think about is.. lets say that the UAP are time travelers (not my belief but bare with me) and they cloak their ships to match the times that they are travelling back to. They must have to goto an awesome fancy dress shop before setting off lol.

"Dave where are we going tomorrow?"
"we are doing to the roman times Steve"
"ahhhh, that means i am going to have to order a toga in, I hate togas"
"shut up dave and get your sandals on as well"

originally posted by: radarloveguy
a reply to: TheBadCabbie

"A bicycle wheel is a flywheel. If you remove the rim
and tire,leaving only the spokes sticking out of the hub,
you still have a flywheel. In fact, spokes alone make a
more efficient flywheel than the complete wheel .But
spokes alone still generate centrifugal force equally
in all directions from the plane of rotation. All you
have to do to concentrate centrifugal force in one
direction is remove all the spokes but one. That one
spokestill functions as a flywheel, even though it is not
a wheel any longer.But our centrifuge still generates
a centrifugal force acceleration in all directions around
the plane of rotation.To solve this problem, now that we have come
to it, we need merely to accelerate the spoke through a few degrees
of arc and then let it complete the cycle of revolution without
power. As long as it is accelerated during the same arc at each
cycle, the locomotive will lurch in one direction, albeit
intermittently. But don't forget that the piston engine also drives
intermittently. The regular centrifugal pulses can be evened out by
mounting several centrifuges on the same axle so that a pulse from
another flywheel takes over as soon as one pulse of power is past
it's arc. Therefore, what we need is a spoke that has a
tremendous velocity with minimal mass. They don't make spokes like
that for bicycle wheels. A search through the engineers' catalog
however, turns up just the kind of centrifuge we need. An electron
has no mass at rest (you cannot find a smaller minimum mass than
that); all it's mass is inherent in its velocity. So we build an
electron raceway in the shape of a doughnut in which we can
accelerate an electron to a speed close to that of light. As the
speed of light is approached, the energy of acceleration is
converted to a momentum approaching infinity.High energy
electrons ionize the air surrounding them. This causes the
betatrons to glow like an annular neon tube.

Therefore, around the rim of the saucer a ring of lights will
glow like a string of shining beads at night."
nexusilluminati.blogspot.com.au...
www.sacred-texts.com...
dunno ... maybe

Ah, yes, eccentric cams I think is what the concept is referred to as. I came across it in David Hatcher Childress's "Anti-Gravity Handbook". As you say, probably not a viable propulsion system built with mechanical parts(at least not in atmosphere and a planetary gravity well), but viable if propelled by high speed particles accelerated through an arc in their revolutions.