Breaking - Four Officers Remained Outside Douglas Massacre!

originally posted by: burntheships

originally posted by: scubagravy
a reply to: Tempter

The world already knows that most american cops are pussys, liars and cheats.....

I'd offer up a different opinion, that is that this particular
Broward County was affected by a policy put in place
after Trayvon Martin that essentially prohibited the
school and the police department from charging children
in high school with crimes, and prevented them from acting
upon the warning signs of this student.

According to a source who spoke to the Miami Herald, Cruz had been suspended from Stoneman Douglas High for fighting and also for being caught with bullets in his backpack. This was apparently at least one of the reasons why administrators reportedly emailed a warning to teachers against allowing Cruz on the campus with a backpack. He was later expelled for reasons that have not been disclosed, but he was apparently not arrested.

This is not the first time that this "solution" to school crime has produced lethal results. An earlier case in the nearby Miami-Dade County public school system should have been a warning, but unfortunately, the media conspired to suppress the details of the case. The victim in Miami-Dade was one Trayvon Martin.

www.americanthinker.com...

Take Broward County, the Florida county that used to rank No. 1 at sending students to their state’s juvenile justice system. The stats troubled Broward County leaders, and they responded with a bold solution: Lower arrests by not making arrests.

After examining juvenile data, a local task force compiled 12 misdemeanor offenses that would no longer be considered police matters. Criminal mischief and vandalism, for example.

www.publicsource.org...



This is a Broward County issue, not all LE officers so
please at least attempt to be accurate
with your broad brush painting.

Mate, i see what your saying, but i only have to turn on the news here in Australia, or log into Live Leak or hear it from the voices of friends i regularly speak to on the phone from your side of the world and it is rife....

I'm not saying ALL, but i could definitely use a broad stroke brush in my opinion..... the thickness may vary.

I see a lot of situations that could be sorted without the use of fire power, other countries manage it. It is a culture problem i believe, and with these cowboys running around ((( NOT ALL))) , America will only get worse.

Call it what you want , distrust, betrayal...whatever,

I bet even the innocent of your population keep the arms of the law at length.

originally posted by: face23785
a reply to: Kurokage

Complete misrepresentation of what I said, but thankfully what I said is quoted so people can see that for themselves. Please open your mind. Your willful dedication to remain ignorant on this subject is not helping us move forward.

I put your comments in quotes to show no misrepresentation of your post and to show how completely wrong you where, you're the one spouting nonsense here claiming I talked about this or that when I clearly didn't!!
You're also the one who is remaining ignorant with a very closed mind, blaming "liberals" for Americas woes! Why would arming teachers work, when there was already 4 officers there who were to afraid to go in and take action in the first place.

a reply to: Kurokage

Why would arming teachers work, when there was already 4 officers there who were to afraid to go in and take action in the first place.

If I can interject here... all humans are not identical. I cannot weld (other than throw a lot of metal in a very ugly, crooked line that might resemble a bead in a psychopath's wildest imagination)... does it follow that welding is impossible? I can, however, design a circuit board. Does it follow that you can do so as well?

People react as their life experiences and personality direct them to, each different from the other. Pull a gun on most people when they are unarmed and they will try to get away; I have a tendency to charge it (which is probably not very smart). I react differently.

To assume that every person will always react the same as every other person is to ignore the common sense empirical knowledge I just outlined above. Also, a police officer may be thinking more about his family when he is faced with entering the door to a shooting zone; if he enters, his chances of seeing them again will likely be jeopardized. A teacher already in that shooting zone likely will be thinking they have to stop the shooting in order to get to see their family; inaction on their part will lessen their chances of doing so.

The difference is so obvious, so simple, so logical that I fail to see how you can not distinguish the two situations form each other. Perhaps it is your fear of firearms, but I put it to you that fear is the true enemy of life. As long as one lives in fear, one dies a little every day. It is prolonged suicide.

Or perhaps you are just purposely hiding from the ugly truth that firearms by themselves are neither good nor evil. People are.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

I only have a few concerns with teachers being armed:
1. I know how hard it is to engage a target safely.
2. What happens when (not if) one psycho teacher shoots a kid for being bad?

I'm sure there's a laundry list other people could come up with but, those two make me step back from promoting teachers to carry in class. If they want to carry - more power to them.

a reply to: TheRedneck


Thanks for replying with an open and honest answer, like you always do with an opinion that's not insulting.
I do agree with most of your comments and have family who are or were professional fighters, one a retired MMA fighter and another (my Brother) who is a pro' Muay Thai fighter, and i also have a few years of martial arts training in my background. I understand how people will react very differently to the same situation, and that's why I don't think giving more teachers firearms is the answer to this problem, and as we have spoken in the past, a lot comes down to how to tackle problems like mental health, and awareness of people with problems who own weapons. I have had armed police turn up at my house, because my brother posted pics of his "airsoft" weapons to his FaceBook page and is a collector of bladed arms from history and was "red flagged". Which surely should be happening in America if someone is report as unstable.
We have unarmed officers here, who have given there life charging down an assailant who is armed to protect the public. To have 4, who seemed to have stood by is shocking, and puts LEO's in a very bad light compared to others.
Thinking that a teacher will react any differently to these officers who are trained on a regular basis who are supposed to react to this type of crisis is just guessing in my opinion.
I don't have an irrational fear of firearms, which is a just a "tool", but a tool that was created to make killing more easily, firearms were created by humans to kill other humans first and fore most, it is a development of the cannon after all. The fear I have is that these mass shootings seem to be happening on a more regular occurrence, and that political parties on both sides are to busy arguing to make any difference what so ever. With the "average joe" city dweller making ridiculous claims whilst living in fear, is partly why America has these problems.

And this, gun control fanatics, is who is going to protect you when you are disarmed. Some flunky PR Sheriff who thinks 17 dead people is a good success rate. Add to that, your local FBI who don't seem to follow up on tips. See Something, Say Something...Get Nothing FBI.

Broward County Sheriff Insists He Was An "Amazing" Leader After Failing To Stop Florida Shooter



Don't count me in for your poor gun control ideas, or we'd end up like Chicago. Chicago incidentally has the strictest gun control laws and the highest crime and gun violence. Maybe because the criminals in Chicago are happy all their prey are easy pickings.

a reply to: Kurokage

B.S. If you'd lost a son or daughter there you'd have been glad if they were protected by a well trained and armed teacher instead of dying! You talk big, but you didn't face the loss of family!!

You do know this kid was on strong psychological drugs, yet you don't even mention that. Do you know the medicine he was on could cause a change in personality and cause violent or suicidal tendencies!?? But, you give a big fat pass to Big Pharma selling this medicine as safe. You are clueless to the real world and I'm glad you're not voting here in the USA.

a reply to: thepixelpusher

So have you lost someone then?? It's the well trained bit that's B.S. here, teachers are busy teaching and keeping up to date with normal school stuff let alone regular firearms training.
I take it you didn't read this line in my post then about mental health issues??

a lot comes down to how to tackle problems like mental health, and awareness of people with problems who own weapons.

You should try reading a post before making a ridiculous comment like yours, you're the one that appears clueless!!

a reply to: Kurokage

Why would arming teachers work, when there was already 4 officers there who were to afraid to go in and take action in the first place.

Considering the number of teachers that have died shielding kids, I don't think having teachers willing to rush to the threat is the problem.

EDIT: as an example the coach that died of his injuries ran to the shooting from another building.

Just have to get them trained well enough, or find those with military training already so they don't run in guns blazing.

a reply to: Kurokage

To my mind, it is obvious that the primary focus of any policy to combat these shootings must address mental status in some way. I'm not even going to label it as mental health... a perfectly sane individual who is constantly angry and constantly bitter can easily snap. My personal belief is that people need hope, but that is not something that can be purchased with tax money. No, this will take a change in societal attitudes toward others to correct, and that will take time.

We first saw this phenomenon in 1999 in the Columbine Massacre. It is now 19 years later, an entire generation removed. It did not begin overnight, and it certainly will not end overnight. Survivors of Columbine now have children facing school shootings.

The idea of arming teachers is a stop-gap measure, to harden schools until we can make the sweeping changes to societal attitudes that must be made. The raised age to purchase firearms is another stop-gap measure. I actually support most of that proposal, with the sole exception that I think 18 is still appropriate for manual-load long arms. I go back to a principle that I have mentioned before on this subject: it is completely unreasonable to expect a person to make a transition from a restricted, over-protected child to a self-sufficient, capable, and socially adept adult overnight on their birthday. Some amount of easing in to a new responsibility should be included. But that's not really a big deal for now. There has been no bill proposed yet, and the nature of compromise requires some give and take.

What we need is the removal of oppressive regulation and an improved public education system. That may not sound related to the problem, but it is. We want to minimize the number of unstable, angry, potentially dangerous people in our society. Therefore, we need to assist children in growing into proper adult roles. That assistance once was just a part of life, but the oppressive regulations, the economic upheavals due to poor economic policies, the social attitude towards children that demands an end to punishment for all but the most heinous offenses (and heinous punishment once that blurry line is crossed), and the poor quality of education in public schools that ill-prepares children for a bright future, all contribute to the problem.

It is great that we're talking about this problem, but the solution is simply not as simple as so many want it to be. We worked hard to get to this point; we must work hard if we want to leave it.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Kurokage

We have resource officers at our school that is a police officer and they are armed to protect our kids. If you Google those terms you'll see an armed resource officer has saved many kids in school shooting scenarios.

No, we haven't lost anyone here in my community because we see guns as part of the solution with a trained police officer present. We're smarter than Florida stooge police, who are falling all over themselves to pat themselves on the back for work well done.

Mental health wasn't the issue. Pharma drugs can warp a person's perception. That is the bigger issue. The drugs given are NOT SAFE And, I'd be willing to bet this kid was bullied because he had issues with Autism, etc. I remember High School and the bullying that went on for anyone that was different. It's a many faceted solution, not so easy as gun banning or removing gun ownership from people with issues.

a reply to: TheRedneck


It's a shame that I can only star your post for a great and thoughtful response. It should be put at the front of every thread when this topic comes up.

a reply to: thepixelpusher


Mental health, and the drugs that are then spoon fed as a cure are a massive problem, instead of getting to the root of the problem in the first place.

a reply to: Kurokage

Right, you don't see people on a shooting spree that are loved by all those around them unless drugs (legal too) or severe poverty or gangs are involved. The knee jerk remove guns talk and bans didn't stop Chicago, Illinois from rocketing to the top of the crime list in the USA.

originally posted by: thepixelpusher
a reply to: Kurokage

Right, you don't see people on a shooting spree that are loved by all those around them unless drugs (legal too) or severe poverty or gangs are involved. The knee jerk remove guns talk and bans didn't stop Chicago, Illinois from rocketing to the top of the crime list in the USA.

It's a mix of all types of situtions, not just drugs, knee jerk reactions will only make things worse. This needs a completely new approach form top to bottom and from all political parties and the public.

a reply to: Kurokage

Not to mention Homepathic cures are often made illegal to keep Big Pharma in their profits.

a reply to: Kurokage

It has been my observation that drugs, especially recreational drugs, are a symptom rather than a cause. One typically starts using drugs for one of three reasons: peer approval, to escape reality, or of course to combat pain medically.

Peer approval means they are already in an environment that abuses drugs. Peer approval cannot exist without peers who approve, so some of those peers at least did not start this way. Their influence on those who do is pretty high, though, as evidenced by the fact their followers seek their approval.

Escaping reality is where the issue lies. I'm not talking about someone who occasionally exceeds biological limitations in a moment of stress, but someone who has decided that an inebriated state is simply always preferable to dealing with reality. These people are the problem. With a drug-addled mind (and the warped sense of personal responsibility it does eventually create), right and wrong become blurred concepts. The physical addiction is often severe, but in many ways the mental addiction can be worse... the very thing that drove them to drugs in the first place still looms and that reality can take on a new, greater, more frightening aspect over time. Not only does one tend to mentally intensify the memories about the horrors of returning to reality, but now reality sees them as drug addicts. Couple this inability to return to reality and the desire not to return with the high cost of illegal drugs, and one gets a criminal drug culture.

And before anyone thinks removing the need for drug money via subsidies will work, no it won't. People still have desires for things, and that alone would be enough to drive them to crime. And we all know there is no limit to the desire humans have to have material things.

The medical issue is separate, and needs to be addressed via Big Pharma.

We need to change the lack of hope and make it where people still can handle reality. As it is, a young man from a poor family is confronted with a capitalist society that can be uncompassionate to the serious issues he must deal with, and often has no real hope other than a future of poverty. As it is, a child becoming an adult has an expectation that life will always be kind, but life rarely is kind.

We have to change society from the ground up, building from a generation already mostly lost to the hopelessness. Just warring against drug use is not the answer.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck


We seem to have a similar view of the world and again I can only thank you for your great responses

originally posted by: TheRedneck

We need to change the lack of hope and make it where people still can handle reality. As it is, a young man from a poor family is confronted with a capitalist society that can be uncompassionate to the serious issues he must deal with, and often has no real hope other than a future of poverty. As it is, a child becoming an adult has an expectation that life will always be kind, but life rarely is kind.

We have to change society from the ground up, building from a generation already mostly lost to the hopelessness. Just warring against drug use is not the answer.

TheRedneck

Solid post. I fully agree and would just like to add my $0.02

The hopelessness that our up and coming generation faces is a key factor in these instances. I would say there is a subset of people of all ages that are facing existential crises that are more a product of society at large than a sum total of their own choices in life.

Take the opioid crisis, one of the many issues legal drugs are directly involved in. This is a result of a top down (doctors and Big Pharma, in this case) mistake (or intention? This is ATS...). We know the story: Big pharma explodes with extremely powerful opioid derivatives and doctors prescribe them like candy. Granny can only take so many, so (grand) son/daughter starts taking them for kicks (read: escape reality). Legal supply is cut drastically, resulting in an endless supply of addicts ripe for the black market.

To me, the need to escape reality is essential to the human psyche. However, reality is where we spend all of our time regardless of how we perceive it. If you tread down the path of opiates for "recreation", your want for self destruction is well into the realm of mental illness. The problem started long before the needle and that is where the solution lies. Focusing on the end result of a string of complexities is the worst form of hindsight.

As to the case at hand, the hopelessness is obvious. When someone is so broken that they aspire to villainy, it isn't a fluke with the individual solely at fault. Society/culture is the root cause for this instance.

originally posted by: Deplorable
a reply to: TheRedneck

I only have a few concerns with teachers being armed:
1. I know how hard it is to engage a target safely.
2. What happens when (not if) one psycho teacher shoots a kid for being bad?

I'm sure there's a laundry list other people could come up with but, those two make me step back from promoting teachers to carry in class. If they want to carry - more power to them.

Arming teachers is the most insane thing I have ever heard.

I understand gun rights activists and supporters are trying to justify a way to stem the flow of violence plaguing our schools and sacred institutions but arming school officials is NOT the way. LOL.

There are just too many liability issues concerning that and it would take hours to discuss just the top 10 percent of the issues. No way. No how. End of story.

Let the LEOs and security officials handle securing our schools and arm the teachers with text books and brain knowledge. Lord knows we are so academically far behind other Western nations we don't need other distractions. The teachers need to focus on their core competencies and trained skill sets in order to deliver the necessary information to our treasured youth. Let them do their jobs, folks. Enough of this crazy talk.

If trained LEOs can't handle the out of control gun situation in this country, and especially in a state like Florida, then arming teachers is just like pouring gasoline into fire. I can just see unsavory individuals licking their chops waiting for something like this to happen. NO!