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What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns- Heather Sheer-AP

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posted on Feb, 22 2018 @ 10:55 AM
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I post the article for your consideration. These views expressed in the above article do not relate to any view I may or may not hold in relation to gun control.

As a doctor, I feel I have a duty to inform the public of what I have learned as I have observed these wounds and cared for these patients.

It’s clear to me that AR-15 or other high-velocity weapons, especially when outfitted with a high-capacity magazine, have no place in a civilian’s gun cabinet. I have friends who own AR-15 rifles; they enjoy shooting them at target practice for sport, and fervently defend their right to own them. But I cannot accept that their right to enjoy their hobby supersedes my right to send my own children to school, to a movie theater, or to a concert and to know that they are safe.
Can the answer really be to subject our school children to active shooter drills—to learn to hide under desks, turn off the lights, lock the door and be silent—instead of addressing the root cause of the problem and passing legislation to take AR-15-style weapons out of the hands of civilians?


This topic relates to an article written by Heather Sheer for the associated press.

The article contains a surgeons account of treating patients with High Velocity Bullet Wounds, following some of the mass shootings that have recently occured in the US and how the type of weapon and ammunition used, has such a massive impact upon the victims chances of survival.

The article describes the shock at seeing the explosive damage caused by high velocity bullets fired from weapons such as the AR-15 compared to those injuries caused by handguns or similar weapons that fire low velocity bullets.

She describes what little chance if any there is for her to treat, let alone save the victims who have been hit by HV bullets and the true biological devastation that they witness relating to organ damage as the victim lies on the operating table. They see organs so badly damaged, including livers that resemble sledgehammered Melons , that no amount of surgery can repair. Ultimately these injuries almost guarantee patient death.

The article is a poignant reminder, not about Gun Control per se but about limiting the type of Gun and ammunition that is available to the public.

In her own words, she explains how the majority of people who receive handgun type or low velocity bullet injuries can be treated and many go on to make a full recovery. Sadly the outcome is very different for those on the receiving end of an AR-15 or similar weapon.

Please take time to read the full article if possible as it certainly provides insight from a surgeon/ emergency room perspective along with views on what action should be taken to reduce these deaths.

Atlan tic

As a non-US citizen, I would like to point out that I hold no personal view, for or against Gun Control but I am saddened by the loss of any life whatever the circumstances.


As I opened the CT scan last week to read the next case, I was baffled. The history simply read “gunshot wound.” I have been a radiologist in one of the busiest trauma centers in the nation for 13 years, and have diagnosed thousands of handgun injuries to the brain, lung, liver, spleen, bowel, and other vital organs. I thought that I knew all that I needed to know about gunshot wounds, but the specific pattern of injury on my computer screen was one that I had seen only once before.

In a typical handgun injury that I diagnose almost daily, a bullet leaves a laceration through an organ like the liver. To a radiologist, it appears as a linear, thin, grey bullet track through the organ. There may be bleeding and some bullet fragments.

I was looking at a CT scan of one of the victims of the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, who had been brought to the trauma center during my call shift. The organ looked like an overripe melon smashed by a sledgehammer, with extensive bleeding. How could a gunshot wound have caused this much damage?




Routine handgun injuries leave entry and exit wounds and linear tracks through the victim's body that are roughly the size of the bullet.

If the bullet does not directly hit something crucial like the heart or the aorta, and they do not bleed to death before being transported to our care at a trauma center, chances are, we can save the victim.

The bullets fired by an AR-15 are different; they travel at higher velocity and are far more lethal. The damage they cause is a function of the energy they impart as they pass through the body. A typical AR-15 bullet leaves the barrel traveling almost three times faster than, and imparting more than three times the energy of, a typical 9mm bullet from a handgun. An AR-15 rifle outfitted with a magazine cartridge with 50 rounds allows many more lethal bullets to be delivered quickly without reloading.




With an AR-15, the shooter does not have to be particularly accurate. The victim does not have to be unlucky. If a victim takes a direct hit to the liver from an AR-15, the damage is far graver than that of a simple handgun shot injury. Handgun injuries to the liver are generally survivable unless the bullet hits the main blood supply to the liver. An AR-15 bullet wound to the middle of the liver would cause so much bleeding that the patient would likely never make it to a trauma center to receive our care.


I post the article for your consideration. These views expressed in the above article do not relate to any view I may or may not hold in relation to gun control.

edit on 22-2-2018 by studio500 because: (no reason given)



+9 more 
posted on Feb, 22 2018 @ 11:00 AM
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Question for the doctor:

Would a low-capacity magazine change the types of wounds created by a rifle?



posted on Feb, 22 2018 @ 11:01 AM
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Only the government and the cartels they give them to should have anything stronger than a BB gun.



posted on Feb, 22 2018 @ 11:07 AM
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originally posted by: studio500

As a doctor, I feel I have a duty to inform the public of what I have learned as I have observed these wounds and cared for these patients.

It’s clear to me that AR-15 or other high-velocity weapons, especially when outfitted with a high-capacity magazine, have no place in a civilian’s gun cabinet. I have friends who own AR-15 rifles; they enjoy shooting them at target practice for sport, and fervently defend their right to own them. But I cannot accept that their right to enjoy their hobby supersedes my right to send my own children to school, to a movie theater, or to a concert and to know that they are safe.
Can the answer really be to subject our school children to active shooter drills—to learn to hide under desks, turn off the lights, lock the door and be silent—instead of addressing the root cause of the problem and passing legislation to take AR-15-style weapons out of the hands of civilians?


This topic relates to an article written by Heather Sheer for the associated press.

The article contains a surgeons account of treating patients with High Velocity Bullet Wounds, following some of the mass shootings that have recently occured in the US and how the type of weapon and ammunition used, has such a massive impact upon the victims chances of survival.

The article describes the shock at seeing the explosive damage caused by high velocity bullets fired from weapons such as the AR-15 compared to those injuries caused by handguns or similar weapons that fire low velocity bullets.

She describes what little chance if any there is for her to treat, let alone save the victims who have been hit by HV bullets and the true biological devastation that they witness relating to organ damage as the victim lies on the operating table. They see organs so badly damaged, including livers that resemble sledgehammered Melons , that no amount of surgery can repair. Ultimately these injuries almost guarantee patient death.

The article is a poignant reminder, not about Gun Control per se but about limiting the type of Gun and ammunition that is available to the public.

In her own words, she explains how the majority of people who receive handgun type or low velocity bullet injuries can be treated and many go on to make a full recovery. Sadly the outcome is very different for those on the receiving end of an AR-15 or similar weapon.

Please take time to read the full article if possible as it certainly provides insight from a surgeon/ emergency room perspective along with views on what action should be taken to reduce these deaths.

Atlan tic

As a non-US citizen, I would like to point out that I hold no personal view, for or against Gun Control but I am saddened by the loss of any life whatever the circumstances.


As I opened the CT scan last week to read the next case, I was baffled. The history simply read “gunshot wound.” I have been a radiologist in one of the busiest trauma centers in the nation for 13 years, and have diagnosed thousands of handgun injuries to the brain, lung, liver, spleen, bowel, and other vital organs. I thought that I knew all that I needed to know about gunshot wounds, but the specific pattern of injury on my computer screen was one that I had seen only once before.

In a typical handgun injury that I diagnose almost daily, a bullet leaves a laceration through an organ like the liver. To a radiologist, it appears as a linear, thin, grey bullet track through the organ. There may be bleeding and some bullet fragments.

I was looking at a CT scan of one of the victims of the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, who had been brought to the trauma center during my call shift. The organ looked like an overripe melon smashed by a sledgehammer, with extensive bleeding. How could a gunshot wound have caused this much damage?




Routine handgun injuries leave entry and exit wounds and linear tracks through the victim's body that are roughly the size of the bullet.

If the bullet does not directly hit something crucial like the heart or the aorta, and they do not bleed to death before being transported to our care at a trauma center, chances are, we can save the victim.

The bullets fired by an AR-15 are different; they travel at higher velocity and are far more lethal. The damage they cause is a function of the energy they impart as they pass through the body. A typical AR-15 bullet leaves the barrel traveling almost three times faster than, and imparting more than three times the energy of, a typical 9mm bullet from a handgun. An AR-15 rifle outfitted with a magazine cartridge with 50 rounds allows many more lethal bullets to be delivered quickly without reloading.




With an AR-15, the shooter does not have to be particularly accurate. The victim does not have to be unlucky. If a victim takes a direct hit to the liver from an AR-15, the damage is far graver than that of a simple handgun shot injury. Handgun injuries to the liver are generally survivable unless the bullet hits the main blood supply to the liver. An AR-15 bullet wound to the middle of the liver would cause so much bleeding that the patient would likely never make it to a trauma center to receive our care.



This is retarded and proving doctors are no more logical or smarter than anyone else.

Since when have bullet wounds been a minor thing? Take a trip over to bestgore and see what people look like after car accidents, motorcycle accidents, falling from 20 stories, knife attacks, etc. No one is suggesting we ban a lot of things even though people injured are beyond saving or their injuries horrifying.



posted on Feb, 22 2018 @ 11:10 AM
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It’s clear to me that AR-15 or other high-velocity weapons, especially when outfitted with a high-capacity magazine, have no place in a civilian’s gun cabinet.


Funny.

When did my rights start coming from this REICH WINGER?



posted on Feb, 22 2018 @ 11:10 AM
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a reply to: studio500



But I cannot accept that their right to enjoy their hobby supersedes my right to send my own children to school, to a movie theater, or to a concert and to know that they are safe.


You can ban the AR-15 and they still wouldn't be safe at a school, movie theater or concert because of the millions of handguns in circulation. Semi-automatic handguns that is, like the Glock, etc. Chicago has very strict gun laws; no one is safe in Chicago however because the criminals have all the handguns they want. The truth be told, the problem is less the firearms and more the people circulating throughout this society that are either maniacally anti-social or outright crazy.


Can the answer really be to subject our school children to active shooter drills—to learn to hide under desks, turn off the lights, lock the door and be silent


That never was the answer! The answer is to limit access to these schools to only entrances that have metal detectors and armed security guards inspecting bags and doing pat downs. How much failure is it to have a kid wander about a school campus with an AR-15 in a bag and go un-noticed, unchallenged? Its at a minimum a failure of imagination and at worse, its an intentional failure designed to produce this very result. But failure it is and its a failure of the School Administrators, the School Board, etc. to exercise due dilligence in the pursuit of their jobs.



posted on Feb, 22 2018 @ 11:11 AM
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a reply to: studio500
I am having trouble with the doctor's argument because I don't know how it will prevent children from being put in harms way.

If the intent is to kill as many students as they can, removing all the guns on the planet will not stop that person from carrying out the attempt.

It is a false sense of security to think that after all the guns are gone the children will be safe.

There are much cheaper and easier means to do harm, if that is the intent. Guns are indeed a tool that seems to be the weapon of choice in these events, but they will quickly be exchanged for another tool if not available. If the intent is to protect the children, the objective should be eradicating the cause, not swapping out the tools to do the job.



posted on Feb, 22 2018 @ 11:11 AM
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That's going to be true of virtually any injury from a rifle round as compared to a handgun. Virtually every centerfire hunting rifle round on the market significantly outclasses the .223/5.56 in terms of energy, and most are also in the same ballpark in terms of velocity. You actually can't deer hunt in most US jurisdictions because the .223/5.56 is widely considered too weak for it.

While I'm not in favor of it, if you're going to restrict something, magazine capacity is the only thing that makes sense. An AR-15 limited to 10 round mags is no different from a 40 year old Remington 7400 limited to 10 round mags, for example, except that the latter is probably chambered in something significantly stouter than the .223/5.56.
edit on 22-2-2018 by vor78 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2018 @ 11:13 AM
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would wounds from a .22lr not kill a person? I seem to remember emergency room doctors hate seeing .22lr wounds, because instead of penetrating the body, they bounce around inside and do massive damage. Point being, dead is dead. the type of wound is irrelevant.

If you really want to understand my point, look at 12 gauge shotgun hits at close range. and I would assume one of them would cause much more deaths than an AR, based on how they work.



posted on Feb, 22 2018 @ 11:14 AM
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So the root cause is the tool... not the situation that drove this person to think shooting up a school was a good idea?

Not potential child abuse, or bullying, or the mix of chemicals from food preservatives, water purification at the city level, Anti-depressants mixed with smoking weed, there can literally be a laundry list of root causes but the tool used to carry out the act is not one.



posted on Feb, 22 2018 @ 11:14 AM
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a reply to: TonyS

That's another thing. Where did the ghetto get so many guns?

It would be a good way to start a gun problem, just drop off a bunch of cases of guns, maybe drop some crack in there for good measure.



posted on Feb, 22 2018 @ 11:14 AM
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a reply to: vor78

But they already restricted guns on school property.

Prohibition doesn't work.

Have people learned nothing from the 20s?



posted on Feb, 22 2018 @ 11:14 AM
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I'm glad so many are enthusiastic about limiting my Rights to make them feel safe. "You don't need that rifle" turns into "You don't need that caliber handgun" or "You don't need that many bullets".
Gun safety? I'm all for it, but stop trying to grease an already slippery slope.



posted on Feb, 22 2018 @ 11:15 AM
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I remember all the complaints and conspiracies when I joined ATS based around the "military industrial complex" and the effect it has on Americans and the rest of the world. They've slowly militarized the sale of firearms to a general public who now lap it up.

This was said by President Eisenhower.


In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex.





edit on 22-2-2018 by Kurokage because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2018 @ 11:15 AM
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a reply to: Edumakated

good lord THAT is your response...the point was the AR15's do much more damage and you need much less accuracy than a regular gun....we are truly doomed

edit on 22-2-2018 by research100 because: added sentence



posted on Feb, 22 2018 @ 11:16 AM
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Is this a CNN doctor?

He sounds like he went to CNN Medical school.



posted on Feb, 22 2018 @ 11:19 AM
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originally posted by: research100
...the point was the AR15's do much more damage and you need much less accuracy than a regular gun....we are truly doomed


And yet this is a falsehood. The AR-15 will do more damage than a handgun, but so will any ordinary hunting rifle round, and the fact is, the vast majority of hunting rifle rounds are significantly more powerful than the standard AR-15 round.



posted on Feb, 22 2018 @ 11:22 AM
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originally posted by: studio500
I post the article for your consideration. These views expressed in the above article do not relate to any view I may or may not hold in relation to gun control.

As a doctor, I feel I have a duty to inform the public of what I have learned as I have observed these wounds and cared for these patients.

It’s clear to me that AR-15 or other high-velocity weapons, especially when outfitted with a high-capacity magazine, have no place in a civilian’s gun cabinet. I have friends who own AR-15 rifles; they enjoy shooting them at target practice for sport, and fervently defend their right to own them. But I cannot accept that their right to enjoy their hobby supersedes my right to send my own children to school, to a movie theater, or to a concert and to know that they are safe.
Can the answer really be to subject our school children to active shooter drills—to learn to hide under desks, turn off the lights, lock the door and be silent—instead of addressing the root cause of the problem and passing legislation to take AR-15-style weapons out of the hands of civilians?


This topic relates to an article written by Heather Sheer for the associated press.

The article contains a surgeons account of treating patients with High Velocity Bullet Wounds, following some of the mass shootings that have recently occured in the US and how the type of weapon and ammunition used, has such a massive impact upon the victims chances of survival.

The article describes the shock at seeing the explosive damage caused by high velocity bullets fired from weapons such as the AR-15 compared to those injuries caused by handguns or similar weapons that fire low velocity bullets.

She describes what little chance if any there is for her to treat, let alone save the victims who have been hit by HV bullets and the true biological devastation that they witness relating to organ damage as the victim lies on the operating table. They see organs so badly damaged, including livers that resemble sledgehammered Melons , that no amount of surgery can repair. Ultimately these injuries almost guarantee patient death.

The article is a poignant reminder, not about Gun Control per se but about limiting the type of Gun and ammunition that is available to the public.

In her own words, she explains how the majority of people who receive handgun type or low velocity bullet injuries can be treated and many go on to make a full recovery. Sadly the outcome is very different for those on the receiving end of an AR-15 or similar weapon.

Please take time to read the full article if possible as it certainly provides insight from a surgeon/ emergency room perspective along with views on what action should be taken to reduce these deaths.

Atlan tic

As a non-US citizen, I would like to point out that I hold no personal view, for or against Gun Control but I am saddened by the loss of any life whatever the circumstances.


As I opened the CT scan last week to read the next case, I was baffled. The history simply read “gunshot wound.” I have been a radiologist in one of the busiest trauma centers in the nation for 13 years, and have diagnosed thousands of handgun injuries to the brain, lung, liver, spleen, bowel, and other vital organs. I thought that I knew all that I needed to know about gunshot wounds, but the specific pattern of injury on my computer screen was one that I had seen only once before.

In a typical handgun injury that I diagnose almost daily, a bullet leaves a laceration through an organ like the liver. To a radiologist, it appears as a linear, thin, grey bullet track through the organ. There may be bleeding and some bullet fragments.

I was looking at a CT scan of one of the victims of the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, who had been brought to the trauma center during my call shift. The organ looked like an overripe melon smashed by a sledgehammer, with extensive bleeding. How could a gunshot wound have caused this much damage?




Routine handgun injuries leave entry and exit wounds and linear tracks through the victim's body that are roughly the size of the bullet.

If the bullet does not directly hit something crucial like the heart or the aorta, and they do not bleed to death before being transported to our care at a trauma center, chances are, we can save the victim.

The bullets fired by an AR-15 are different; they travel at higher velocity and are far more lethal. The damage they cause is a function of the energy they impart as they pass through the body. A typical AR-15 bullet leaves the barrel traveling almost three times faster than, and imparting more than three times the energy of, a typical 9mm bullet from a handgun. An AR-15 rifle outfitted with a magazine cartridge with 50 rounds allows many more lethal bullets to be delivered quickly without reloading.




With an AR-15, the shooter does not have to be particularly accurate. The victim does not have to be unlucky. If a victim takes a direct hit to the liver from an AR-15, the damage is far graver than that of a simple handgun shot injury. Handgun injuries to the liver are generally survivable unless the bullet hits the main blood supply to the liver. An AR-15 bullet wound to the middle of the liver would cause so much bleeding that the patient would likely never make it to a trauma center to receive our care.


I post the article for your consideration. These views expressed in the above article do not relate to any view I may or may not hold in relation to gun control.
I agree with what is said. Guns are the problem if they get into the wrong hands so easy without stringent verification of an individuals suitability!



posted on Feb, 22 2018 @ 11:27 AM
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a reply to: studio500



Also the post reminds me of a study I saw a long long time ago comparing similar wounds delivered with the Nato 5.56mm via the M16 vs the 7.62 delivered via AK47...I'll try to find a link, not sure if it's something I saw online or in a library. The gist of that study was...the NATO ball rounds have a high velocity lightweight projectile that deflects and changes direction once penetration occurs, sometimes changing direction multiple times, creating different wound paths and the round doesn't always exit. The AK47, delivers a single path wound, often creating a gaping exit.

I didn't locate the source, but I did find an article that correlates here
edit on 22-2-2018 by kelbtalfenek because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 22 2018 @ 11:27 AM
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a reply to: studio500
double post
edit on 22-2-2018 by kelbtalfenek because: double posting



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