Did two Su-57s Deploy to Syria?

originally posted by: Blackfinger
I very much doubt that the US and NATO "dont" have higher spec platforms in use over there than the F22..Its like a game of cards.Dont show all your hand until you know your going to win.Plus sats cant be blocked ..But they are on known orbits.

Last i heard the US are going to scale Down their use of Hightech platforms do to russian surveillance techology.

The f-22 will probably be sendt to Germany soon and not be involved in Syria. Even the AWACS will rpobably be changed out.

a reply to: spy66

It's not just the US bragging about them. The F-35 gets crazy ratings from everyone with first hand knowledge, actual pilots who flew them or went up against them.

www.haaretz.com...

Israel is showing overhead recon showing the fighters at the Khmeimim air base

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: spy66

It's not just the US bragging about them. The F-35 gets crazy ratings from everyone with first hand knowledge, actual pilots who flew them or went up against them.

Well we just got them here in Norway. Nothing but problems With the F-35 so far. The screen freeze up and there are a lot of glitches in different screens and the pilot have to changed back and forth between screens to have them work.

Dont believe a thing the Americans say about the F-35 it is all about the sale..... Our government have been bragen this jet up to the sky, but the pipe's got a different tune now. Because the cost is going to be a lot larger to fix it.

THe other thing we have noticed about the F-35 is that it dosent just gather intell on for Instant russian Activity... it also gathers intell on domestic intelligence, and gues who recives this? It is not just Norway have reacted to this other have as well.

originally posted by: Blackfinger
I very much doubt that the US and NATO "dont" have higher spec platforms in use over there than the F22..Its like a game of cards.Dont show all your hand until you know your going to win.Plus sats cant be blocked ..But they are on known orbits.

Then you may as well claim that they have God fighting for the Americans as well, since that would also be based on faith in the imaginary.

I also like the other guy who claims that the Su-57 is only comparable to 4.5 gen American fighters because he doesn’t think they are stealthy enough, as if stealth defines a 5th gen fighter. The stealth applications on American models are so superficial that they would be largely meaningless in actual war. For instance, maintainence required for stealth coatings alone are unrealistic; and the stealth aspect is irrelevant when in real combat, American “stealth” fighters would probably be loaded with weapons on their exterior hard points as well.

The only practical function for stealth is the same as it ever was: special and obscure missions. The only “stealth” aspect here is how people drivel on about stealth characteristics of 5th gen fighters while the real stealth is in tactics, not technology.

a reply to: TheStalkingHorse

Then why is one of the accepted defining characteristics of fifth generation stealth, if it's so meaningless?

Fifth-generation fighters truly fuse multiple on-board offensive and defense sensor systems with off-board information to present a smart, networked digital data-presentation to the pilot. Fifth-gen also combines advanced low observable technologies previously incorporated into limited platforms (SR-71 Blackbird, F-117 Nighthawk, B-2 Spirit) with advanced handling characteristics on par with, or in excess of fourth-gen aircraft. In addition, fifth-gen may include increased engine thrust that enable sustained supersonic flight without the need for inefficient afterburner, i.e. supercruise.

The most complete description of fifth-gen from a senior Air Force leader may be the statement of the previous director of the Air Force F-35A Lightning II Integration Office, Lt Gen Jeffrey Harrigian. In an article he co-authored, Harrigian wrote, “There are many characteristics of fifth-generation aircraft that separate them from older aircraft. These include, primarily, multi-spectral low observable design features such as radar, infrared sensors, and visual situational awareness tools, along with self-protection and radar jamming capabilities that delay or deny enemy systems the ability to detect, track, and engage the aircraft.

These aircraft also feature integrated avionics, which autonomously fuse and prioritize the aircraft’s multi-spectral sensors and off board data, providing an accurate real-time operations picture for the pilot, and the ability to download data for post-mission analysis.”

www.jble.af.mil...

Yes tactics are a major part of stealth, but without a truly LO platform, which requires far more than just superficial applications, those tactics aren't going to do much. You can't use those tactics with an F-15 or F-16 and get the same result with an F-22 or F-35, which are doing far more than just specialized missions.

EDIT: Post removed due to post not displaying error, due to errors in quote format. My apologies, please remove.

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a reply to: spy66

I'll leave armchair analysis to you. This is what an actual Norwegian pilot said.

www.defensenews.com...

I am assuming that since the early portions of this thread were talking about Su-57 issues, they are now being redirected to F-35 issues.

a reply to: TheStalkingHorse

as if stealth defines a 5th gen fighter.

I personally think any aircraft that is newer yet operationally and technologically distinct from a 4th generation fighter should be considered a 5th generation fighter, however stealth is commonly used as a defining factor between a 4.5th and 5th generation fighter.

There are no 5th generation fighters under development which do not have a large degree of stealth shaping. I am using manufacturers claims over what aircraft is regarded as 5th generation. This is more evidence that what you are posting is incorrect.

The guy claiming that the Su-57 only has stealth shaping to the extent of the Super Hornet, was probably incorrect. It might be true from certain angles but the Super Hornet needs external stores anyway.

The stealth applications on American models are so superficial that they would be largely meaningless in actual war.

The F-117 was used to devastating affect due to its stealth in "actual wars", despite the F-117 effectively being a cruise missile on a pre-programmed path, with few or no sensors, few or not communications. More recently, the stealth of the F-22 has been used effectively in Syria and during plenty of combat exercises, where adversary pilots admit they couldn't even get a lock on the aircraft, even though sometimes the aircraft is visible to the naked eye.

or instance, maintainence required for stealth coatings alone are unrealistic

Rubbish. Actually the LO restorations are not the main driver of maintenance issues on the F-35 in particular, despite the services keeping each F-35 in a VLO state as much as practicable. F-22 is kept in a stealth configuration and most definitely is a maintainable aircraft.

American “stealth” fighters would probably be loaded with weapons on their exterior hard points as well.

Rubbish.

"We have internal weapons bays specifically to keep the VLO properties of our aircraft with a weapons load, we've trained in this way for decades, but let's use external stores anyway because it's an 'actual war' ".

The only practical function for stealth is the same as it ever was: special and obscure missions. The only “stealth” aspect here is how people drivel on about stealth characteristics of 5th gen fighters while the real stealth is in tactics, not technology.

Rubbish.

Stealth is and always has been a combination of low observables and tactics. You cannot have tactics to exploit your low observables if for example, you have the RCS of a barn door and are radiating intensely in all directions. This is partly why 5th generation aircraft have low observables AND advanced sensors and avionics, so they can use tactics to exploit the low observables.

If stealth wasn't needed, then why is Russia pursuing the Su-57? Perhaps they should have persued the Mig 1.44 instead or simply upgraded the Su-35S again. After all, it would be cheaper and more maintainable, right? You've done a pretty good job of undermining the PAKFA program thus far.

There are also claims that the J-20 needs temperature controlled hangars to help maintain stealth, unlike the F-22 and F-35. That's how much China is willing to go for stealth. Perhaps that shows how valuable it is.

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EDIT: Fixed the post. Sorry for posting too many times, made an error in the post then thought the forum software wasn't working properly.

a reply to: spy66

Dont believe a thing the Americans say about the F-35 it is all about the sale.....

It's not just the Americans. It would also be the Israelis, Australians, and N orwegians apparently.

Because the cost is going to be a lot larger to fix it.

Unlikely. The concurrency cost for latest aircraft is low, and software updates don't cost much to partner nations. Further hardware changes should be retrofittable.

THe other thing we have noticed about the F-35 is that it dosent just gather intell on for Instant russian Activity... it also gathers intell on domestic intelligence, and gues who recives this? It is not just Norway have reacted to this other have as well.

Whilst the Lockheed solution to this issue is late - Australia and Israel have simply developed their own indigenous solutions to this, in the former case it will be a "mature" solution before IOC. There is a cost but it is small relative to the entire program. Either way, Norway declares IOC in 2019, so there's time to improve on remaining issues.

Well we just got them here in Norway. Nothing but problems With the F-35 so far. The screen freeze up and there are a lot of glitches in different screens and the pilot have to changed back and forth between screens to have them work.

That's a shame, hopefully they are sorted out.

Last i heard the US are going to scale Down their use of Hightech platforms do to russian surveillance techology.

The f-22 will probably be sendt to Germany soon and not be involved in Syria. Even the AWACS will rpobably be changed out.

This doesn't make much sense. The F-22 first flew 21 years ago. It's closest Russian counterpart first flew 8 years ago, which means it is much more difficult for the Su-57 to be adjusted to much they discover about the F-22. Operationally, the F-22 can simply play dumb. For those with short memories, the F-22 was much more secret a decade ago.

F-35 already has been forward deployed.

What the US really needs to keep secret is the B-21 and its next generation fighters.

As you mentioned, perhaps it is Russia who needs to be careful about forward deploying Su-57 examples to Syria.

Lastly, the weakness of the F-22 is relatively short range, outdated avionics in some respects, higher maintenance LO, it doesn't even have JHMCS or the latest A2A missiles, and it is lacking an IRST. The F-22 was conceptualized at a stage where a adversary stealth fighter was a dream. So while the Su-57 probably cannot match the F-22 in stealth, but it certainly exceeds it in many other areas - it has significantly more range, has a HMD, has an IRST, has more radar antennae, and probably will be compatible with the latest Russian A2A missiles. I am also assuming it has a much more robust A2G and Electronic Warfare capabilities.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: spy66

I'll leave armchair analysis to you. This is what an actual Norwegian pilot said.

www.defensenews.com...

Yeah about two years ago....

If you really think you can take what a pilots states about a jet like this in the media as anything but propaganda you got to be F#.... kidding me.

Our airforce even brought up a reporter for a ride in a F-16 to do BVR With a F-35 to demostrate its stealth capabilities. And they filmed it..... Do you think that confirmes the demostration in any way?

I always have to laugh when it comes to the F-35. Anything negative about it is Gospel and Truth. Anything positive about it is obvious propaganda.

a reply to: Zaphod58

The world we live in now mate not much positive can be said about anything anymore.

a reply to: Woody510

Oh I know. It just makes me laugh.

a reply to: Zaphod58

The Internet really hasn't helped everyone seems to think they're "experts" on subjects after reading Wikipedia.

a reply to: spy66

Take the word of a Norweigan pilot?

theaviationist.com...

The deployment of the SU-57's is seen mainly as a publicity stunt, it's an established fact that the current airframes have many serious problems, namely woefully incomplete avionics, substandard radar fits, old and underpowered engines, the manufacturing levels appear to be pretty questionable also.

So I think the 22's & 35's are the least of it's worries in Syria, both of those platforms will fly dark and listen, all of the industry analysis of the SU-57's shaping suggests a compromised stealth implementation, optimised for frontal aspect in medium / long range BVR but since they doesn't appear to have been any known full weapons trials of either A2A or A2G weaponry (suggested that total weapons releases may be as low at 15) then it's not going to be starting a fight with any of the 5th or top level 4.5th gen aircraft out there.

a 22 shouldn't have any problem dealing with it, I know the Typhoon boys would be more than happy to introduce themselves to SU-57's or 35's in A2A and I'd put a fair bet the F18's and Rafales would give it hell to.

My bet is there will be a few opportunities with air shots of them "escorting" some SU-34's on bombing runs but in reality they'll stay away from any active duty, more than likely testing what sensors they have working and seeing what sections of the platform actually works right now.

I know of at least one differently configured Typhoon out there which is doing some interesting sensor testing with a heavily modified setup in a Litening III pod casing and some sort of updated wider arc IRST sensor that has been snooping in theatre, hopefully there will also be a few F35's mooching about hoovering up target and emissions data too.

Just a lot of high tech sizing up of each others kit, lot of number crunching going on no doubt.

On a side note for Zaph, a colleague of mine is on the ground near the south eastern Afghan border right now and he's reported on two occasions seeing a greenish light zipping across the night skies in the last few weeks at extreme speed, is our Green Lady out playing near there right now?

a reply to: GrumpyBollocks

I won't confirm anything operationally wise, but you can pretty safely say that with the -57s out there, a lot of stuff will be moving over to get what Intel they can grab while they can.