Trump suggests arming teachers & staff could prevent school massacres

originally posted by: Krakatoa
Look, I admire your fervor, but we do have a constitution to uphold and the protections to our rights that it affords. I do not think stomping on those rights is a good idea for the chance that it will help.

The meaning of the constitution has already been settled on this matter. What I suggested would be constitutional, it would also preserve the two main arguments for weapons that gun owners promote... hunting and home protection.

This is an interesting article for you to read
www.washingtonpost.com... hp_hp-morning-mix_mm-amendment%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.ba3890ea14a5

The fact that federal courts keep coming back to the decision that the 2nd is not absolute is also why the Supreme Court won't take it up again. They consider the matter settled. Additionally there's the Heller case which my solution would mostly be in line with (the main change being, that you would have to add handguns alongside shotguns to home defense... but you could still restrict lethal ammo to enough for home defense only)

Banning guns would accomplish the same, as more illegal weapons were manufactured and smuggled in across the open border. Enriching the gun cartels, where they could pay off politicians to keep them banned.

That's why you have to ban enough weapons that ordinary criminals cannot afford to purchase a gun. The black market still operates by supply and demand. If you can price weapons out of peoples hands, it doesn't really matter if they're legal or illegal because they don't have access to it.

a reply to: Xcalibur254


That coach in broward county that died of his wounds was licensed to carry but obviously could not carry at the school. If he was armed he may have been able to stop the attack.

As I said not everyone needs to be armed, if a teacher wants the training or has had training and is licensed why can they not carry?

a reply to: Irishhaf

There was an armed guard in Florida.

These aren't robbers. They are mentally ill people looking to kill their peers they feel are the cause of their problems. Intent is important to note.

a reply to: Xcalibur254

Going off 3 percent of the US public owns more than half the guns.

Trump's idea to arm teachers and school personnel is a masterpiece! Absolute genius.

a reply to: luthier

Yea the mall shooting in Washington state was just looking to kill people not rob people, and as I said when confronted by an armed person he committed suicide.

And if there was an armed resource officer where was he/she cause the coach was able to run from another building and get shot in the short time the shooter was active?

Every shooter will be different, there is no one size fits all fix.

Its crazy to me that people are so against this, in the military we do not rely on 1 thing to secure the base we have random anti-terror measures whos primary purpose is to keep potential attackers off balance. The entire purpose of RAM's is to convince potential attackers to hit somewhere not as protected.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: Xcalibur254


That coach in broward county that died of his wounds was licensed to carry but obviously could not carry at the school. If he was armed he may have been able to stop the attack.

As I said not everyone needs to be armed, if a teacher wants the training or has had training and is licensed why can they not carry?

A ccl is not training to fire possibly a small barrel concealed carry gun, with stress into a crowd.

I am sorry I support the 2nd had a ccl when I lived in Texas and my wife's .380 was good for maybe 15 yards maximum. Far less under stress.

People generally don't cary large framed guns particularly an active gym teacher.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: luthier

Yea the mall shooting in Washington state was just looking to kill people not rob people, and as I said when confronted by an armed person he committed suicide.

And if there was an armed resource officer where was he/she cause the coach was able to run from another building and get shot in the short time the shooter was active?

Every shooter will be different, there is no one size fits all fix.

Its crazy to me that people are so against this, in the military we do not rely on 1 thing to secure the base we have random anti-terror measures whos primary purpose is to keep potential attackers off balance. The entire purpose of RAM's is to convince potential attackers to hit somewhere not as protected.

You aren't allowed to cary at all on bases in the military unless you are an mp.

Like I said. The school had an armed guard.

originally posted by: luthier
Switzerland? Uh no guns are not banned. They have strict backround checks and have more per capita ownership than the US.

I didn't say they were banned in Switzerland, I said they have gun control. They have 2445 guns per 10,000 people, the us has 10100 per 10,000 people. They're in second place per capita, but we have 4 times as many.

You may want to read up on their laws
en.wikipedia.org...

Essentially, anyone can have a gun but most of their society is gun free as carry permits for the most part don't exist. However, Switzerland does also tightly control ammunition. It requires an ok to purchase it and they track is so that no one can stockpile enough for any sort of major attack. Note that such a process is touched on in my suggestions in phase 2.

This mass shooter was know to law enforcement. Changing law enforcement strategy and devoting some higher level federal enforcement to cover schools exclusively through regional offices like say the nsa does for terrorism. This is in fact domestic terrorism. But isn't yet classified the same.

So you want law enforcement to start acting against people before they commit a crime, based purely on speculation?

a reply to: luthier

As said repeatedly now, many shooters eat a bullet when confronted with an armed person it does not mean the teacher has to fire.

My CCL is a ruger 1911 commander and I am a much smaller guy than that coach was and it carries easily, if all he does is take up a shooting position protecting kids running away he is saving lives and not sacrificing himself.

a reply to: Irishhaf

Even trained soldiers hesitate when they're required to kill a child. And that's a child they don't know.

How do you think an untrained teacher is going to react when their target is a student they taught every day?

a reply to: Aazadan

So you want law enforcement to start acting against people before they commit a crime, based purely on speculation?

What?

originally posted by: Irishhaf
And if there was an armed resource officer where was he/she cause the coach was able to run from another building and get shot in the short time the shooter was active?

At the other end of the school. He didn't even know what was going on until it was over.

www.sun-sentinel.com...

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: luthier

As said repeatedly now, many shooters eat a bullet when confronted with an armed person it does not mean the teacher has to fire.

My CCL is a ruger 1911 commander and I am a much smaller guy than that coach was and it carries easily, if all he does is take up a shooting position protecting kids running away he is saving lives and not sacrificing himself.

Yeah? You would play soccer with it with the kids?

Sorry I just don't think it's practical. Take a look a how often law enforcement shoots bystanders. Check out NYPD numbers.

a reply to: luthier


Screw it you don't want to discuss things, you just want to parrot your approved talking points.


If you ever decide you want to talk about the subject let me know.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Aazadan

So you want law enforcement to start acting against people before they commit a crime, based purely on speculation?

What?

That's what asking the FBI to take action proactively is. Until Cruz pulled the trigger he was not a criminal. Unless some massive privacy violations start occuring, and were arrested before we commit a crime, we cannot do anything about would be criminals.

What would have happened had Cruz was arrested? Unlawful arrest, and the court wouldn't be able to pin any crime on him. That doesn't get us anywhere. You're not guilty until you actually commit the crime.

a reply to: Irishhaf

I do. I had a CCL. The state I live in now doesn't require one.

I compete in marksmanship. It's hard. It's particularly hard to shoot with adrenaline dumps and heart rate elevation.

There is potential for cross fire.etc...

Now if there were a qualifying course and mandatory maintenence training I could be more comfortable. As well as screening. Maybe he was a stable vet with skills. Buy I want to know that beforehand.

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: Irishhaf

Even trained soldiers hesitate when they're required to kill a child. And that's a child they don't know.

How do you think an untrained teacher is going to react when their target is a student they taught every day?

This will be my last reply maybe you will actually read it...

If all the coach does is take up a firing position and never pulls the trigger and covers kids running for cover, there is a good chance that like many shooters before they will go off and eat a bullet they are not looking for a fight they are looking for victims.

I am not saying teachers should run in guns blazing like Hollywood, I am saying having an armed response increases the chance and if nothing else this shooting has shown 1 armed guard on a campus that big is not enough.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Aazadan

So you want law enforcement to start acting against people before they commit a crime, based purely on speculation?

What?

That's what asking the FBI to take action proactively is. Until Cruz pulled the trigger he was not a criminal. Unless some massive privacy violations start occuring, and were arrested before we commit a crime, we cannot do anything about would be criminals.

What would have happened had Cruz was arrested? Unlawful arrest, and the court wouldn't be able to pin any crime on him. That doesn't get us anywhere. You're not guilty until you actually commit the crime.

You are funny. In one case you can pass hypothetical laws for your ideas in another they are impossible.

This person had already had warning signs of mental illness. Already had warning. You can then get a temporary warrant for surveillance. You can change laws around mental illness and threats of violence.

Double